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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #21

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I am currently testing Terminus in the Bant list (adding Portent to set it up) as being able to wrath opposing creature based decks for a single mana is incredibly powerful.

    Terminus pairs really well with your win conditions since your never have to worry about losing your own threats to Terminus. If you have a Dreadnought or Uro on the board, your guys are bigger than your opponents and you don't need to bother using Terminus. But if they manage to kill your Dreadnought/Uro, you simply wrath the board for a single mana which buys you a bunch of time to try again. Your cantrips work well really well at enabling Terminus and digging for threats/answers. I think this is the correct direction for Bant Dressnought to take...

    3-4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Ponder
    3 Portent
    3 Prismatic Ending
    3 Terminus

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    1 Force of Negation

    3-4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    1 Sylvan Library

    21 Lands including some Urza's Saga

    I am still trying to iron out how many Urza's Sagas and Wastelands to run in the list, and which utility artifact to pair with Urza's Saga and if I should opt to run 0 Wasteland, 4 Sagas and cut a couple of Dreadnoughts due to Saga being able to tutor them up when needed.

  2. #22
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    @Fox: So how do you effectively leverage Dreadnought in Dreadstill then? Is it that it's such a fast clock that you can quickly pivot from caring about the combat step (1-2 turn kill) to not caring at all and winning some other way, because you've invested so few resources into combat, and that allows you to not care which way the fight goes?
    All we're counting is damage; we don't care what's dealing it. If they want to blow their spells on stopping a 1-shot Dreadnought, they can't really fight on another axis effectively. They'll either die to Nought b/c they couldn't answer it, or not be able to interact with another dude, or get drowned by Standstill. Like the Saga/Dress Down example, we're making forward progress and that's all that matters; we don't much care what shape that progress comes in.

  3. #23

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If they counter Dress Down, you're winning as you search for not- Dreadnought, and go up a card.
    They lose the counter you lose your dress down
    You gain a 1drop artifact and you lose the urzas saga
    it's a 2-for-2

    If they destroy Dress Down they lose a card, you draw a card, and you tutor up not-Dreadnought and go up another card.
    Now you're going up "a" card (you lose dressdown and a land, and you gain a 1drop artifact and draw a card while the opp lost a removal spell)

    If they don't counter Dress Down and they don't destroy it, you draw a card and get *the option* to make a 12/12 for free.
    You get the option to make a 12/12 by sacrificing a land

    I get that the sequence is good but I think you're overselling it a bit and the fact that dressdown kills all the construct tokens seems annoying

  4. #24
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    They lose the counter you lose your dress down
    You gain a 1drop artifact and you lose the urzas saga
    it's a 2-for-2

    I get that the sequence is good but I think you're overselling it a bit and the fact that dressdown kills all the construct tokens seems annoying
    Losing Saga doesn't really count as losing a card, particularly if it made a construct. If they lose 2 cards countering Dress Down, that's a 2-for-1 and swapping a land for a trinket is not only card neutral, it's card positive [Relic types and Map go up a card, while a card like Silent Gravestone can go up a card while protecting Uro].

    You have to read the gamestate to make Dress Down plays. If an opponent isn't dealing with construct #1, make a second and pump them to 3/3s until they do something about it. If you don't think 3/3s will force plays out of them, tutor a Map and see what they think about two more constructs. The opponent does have to commit cards somewhere until Dress Down is ready for its ideal timing window.

    If you're behind and this slow construct army stuff won't work [you have to do math over multiple future turns], this is the point where the first Saga would be looking for solving the problem with a Dress Down + Nought (which would only kill a single construct, if the mana was not committed to Dress Down on their EoT).

    Don't forget that on their end step you can pick the fight with Dress Down, which is the same timing window you would choose to make the first construct. If it's late-game and you had 4 other lands, fighting the Dress Down on their end step will end pretty poorly [you can make that first construct if they deal with Dress Down].

    Dress Down and constructs is not really that much of a nonbo, if you know what you're doing. Part of this is that you probably don't want to be running more than 2x Saga. Particularly at high Dress Down counts, as you don't want to risk Dress Down clogging hand while you're waiting for the ideal window. While it's not a good strategy to try and overload removal with Uro + Nought, Saga + Dress Down does further this plan. Even the crude use of Saga is +1 Dreadnought.

    The main point is that the Dreadnought player has all the options, and the opponent is just along for the ride b/c there is no real opportunity to profitably interact with what's happening. It's all the Dreadnought player assessing what is the hardest thing for opponent's deck to deal with. This is where typical legacy decks begin to fail against Dreadnought; there is no clean trade to make, and any trade just changes the path forward rather than slowing us down.

  5. #25

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    That was the same reason I added Portent and Terminus to the Bant Dressnought list.

    You have all the options. Dreadnought and Uro are both huge. If your opponent wants to race them, they have to overcommit to the board, where as you can Terminus anytime you do not have a threat on the board. You can switch gears from super fast aggro that kills in 1-2 hits to a grindy control deck at the drop of the hat and the opponent must have the correct answers for whatever route you choose to go.

  6. #26

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Shadow Spear is a very neat 1 of to tutor up with Urza’s Saga in some of the lists. Giving the constructs or uro trample and lifelink is so broken.

    And removing indestructible from marit lage can be clutch combined with ice fang or baleful or abrupt decay.

  7. #27

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought


  8. #28
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    The name of the second deck is Aeon Bridge. The red splash in it seems fairly egregious. Force of Vigor heavily outclasses Abrade and Grudge, and you don't really need to compromise the mana for 2 Pyroblast effects. There are better things to be doing like 1x Cavern on Phyrexian, or going for white. With 3x Saga you don't need Pyroblast to kill PWs when you can tutor up a SB Hex Parasite.

  9. #29

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Maindecking an Endurance or two is solid in the current meta in the Uro builds. But doing that requires that Ponder be replaced with Abundant Harvest.

    Or maindecking Abundant Growth in the Urza's Saga heavy builds or the Dragon's Rage Channeler builds, ala...

    16-19 RUG Lands +/- Wastelands
    1-3 Urza's Saga

    3-4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    3-4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    2-3 Daze

    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    2-4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    1-2 Brazen Borrower
    1-2 Sylvan Library
    1-4 Abundant Harvest
    1-3 Abundant Growth
    1-3 Endurance
    1-4 Mishra's Bauble

    The above is my newest brew, and the one with the least time I had to test with (so many new cards in MH2 and only so much time for any one person to test via paper legacy per week).
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 07-02-2021 at 02:08 AM.

  10. #30

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I’m really liking Mishra’s Bauble alongside Urza’s Saga, Dragon's Rage Channeler and Ragavan.

    Its basically MH2’s greatest hits that serve as removal fodder to clear the way for Dreadnought.

    With how legacy decks are now playing as much removal as Modern, the more cheap must kill threats, the better.

    How does this look?

    16-17 Temur Lands
    3-4 Urza's Saga

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down

    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    1 Brazen Borrower

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    3 Mishra’s Bauble

    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    1 Abrade/Hull Breach

    The sorcery count is hard to keep up with the Channeler and Bauble but Dress Down as an enchantment and Dreadnought as Baubles make Sorcery not as essential.

  11. #31
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Your mana will be a train wreck if you plan on playing Uro out of the graveyard. Finding double green through opposing Wastelands will be a chore. If you were playing Endurance alongside Uro then you are incentivized to maintain double green mana availability, but otherwise you'll be too busy playing Red and Blue spells to be able to stabilize for Uro. However, regardless of setup, I don't really like Phyrexian Dreadnought right now, at all. Prismatic Ending is becoming incredibly popular, and every deck has ways of dealing with it, and not even stretch to do so.
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  12. #32

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Yes. Thats the reason the deck is playing Dragon Rage Channelers and Ragavan. To present powerful early threats that your opponents are forced to use their Prosmatic Vistas and StPs on.

  13. #33

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I think an Aether Vial or two to grab with Urza’s Saga make all 1 drops uncounterable, and to do the double Dreadnought trick is absolutely warranted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Yes. Thats the reason the deck is playing Dragon Rage Channelers and Ragavan. To present powerful early threats that your opponents are forced to use their Prosmatic Vistas and StPs on.
    I think you meant Prismatic Ending but yes, easy to mix up with Vista.

    I love the idea and will try that list out sometime this week in person (I cant get the Ragavans on MTGO to try them out so I will have to play the deck at a local tournament).

    Just an fyi but do play some Pyroclasm in the sideboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    However, regardless of setup, I don't really like Phyrexian Dreadnought right now, at all. Prismatic Ending is becoming incredibly popular, and every deck has ways of dealing with it, and not even stretch to do so.
    I agree with you that more decks are playing removal due to how powerful threats have gotten. Both Uro and Dreadnought have gotten weaker, the same way that TNN and Whale did.

    A world where a 1 mana 12/12 trampler is too weak seems odd.

    Should we just max out on ways to protect Uro and Dreadnought from Removal?

    4 Mother of Runes alongside 4 Dreadnought and 4 Uro seems awfully tempting in a Bant shell.

    Or should we max out on must kill threats in order to empty our opponents of removal spells?

    We could potentially do both simultaneously by playing 4 MoM and 4 Esper Sentinel alongside Daze in Bant Dressnought...

    2-4 Urza’s Saga
    0-2 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Savannah
    1 Karakas
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Snow-Covered Island

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    1 Aether Vial
    1 Mishra’s Bauble
    1 Bonesplitter

    3 Prismatic Ending
    1 Swords to Plowshares

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Esper Sentinel
    3 Mother of Runes
    2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    Bonesplitter is a neat way to powerup Esper Sentinel that can be tutored up with Urza’s Saga
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 07-12-2021 at 10:52 PM.

  14. #34
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    To beat removal:
    Step 1 assemble Scroll and Teferi.
    Step 2 tap Scroll on their EoT.
    Step 3 recur it all with Sevinnes and Karn.
    Step 4 throw Standstills at them whenever, until they fall over.

    Don't play bad white cards, like Mother of Runes and Sentinel, which don't support Dreadnought in the slightest. All engine, all the time - combo in every direction. The answer to removal heavy stuff was solved a long time ago. The only interesting white creature is Timeless Dragon; again all engine, all the time.

  15. #35

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    To beat removal:
    Step 1 assemble Scroll and Teferi.
    Step 2 tap Scroll on their EoT.
    Step 3 recur it all with Sevinnes and Karn.
    Step 4 throw Standstills at them whenever, until they fall over.

    Don't play bad white cards, like Mother of Runes and Sentinel, which don't support Dreadnought in the slightest. All engine, all the time - combo in every direction. The answer to removal heavy stuff was solved a long time ago. The only interesting white creature is Timeless Dragon; again all engine, all the time.
    That is a very cool idea. But scroll seems very slow for modern horizons 2 legacy.

    Urza’s Saga is a better way to go all engine all the time.

    A midrange list with 4 Saga could work well with either Teferi or Scroll and possibly even a Standstill or two.

    I am actually really enamored by the idea of combining 4 Saga with 4 Mom, 4 Ending, 4 Dragon’s Rage Channeler, 4 Ragavan 4 Mishra’s Bauble, 1 Aether Vial with 4 Thoughtseize in a rainbow manabase.

    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 City of Brass
    4 Mana Confluence
    3 Rainbow Lands (Undiscovered Paradise or Spire or Industry or something similar)
    4 Urza’s Saga

    3 Mishra’s Bauble
    1 Aether Vial

    4 Thoughtseize
    2-3 Prismatic Ending
    0-1 Swords to Plowshares

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Dragon’s Rage Channeler
    3 Mother of Runes
    2 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    1 Uro, Titan of Nature’s Wrath

    3-4 Stifle
    3-4 Dress Down
    2-4 Force of Will
    2-4 Brainstorm/Ponder
    0-1 Misdirection
    0-1 Reanimate

    Basically, turn 1 city of brass type land plus either thoughtseize or a one drop must kill threat to take out removal.

    Turn 2 either Urza’s Saga if have no Dreadnought or Dress Down end of turn if have Dreadnought in hand, drop multiple threats turn 3



    Is that combination of game ending threats and disruption worth dropping Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain?

    Probably not, but fun to think about. I suppose Channeler means you could well play Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain without much issue.

    Perhaps with all the Thoughtseizes, City of Brass and Dress Down, a Death’s Shadow or two could be worth considering.

  16. #36
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    The play pattern of Teferi and making sorcery speed Noughts is not worth doing, particularly if your deck has Daze. Saga isn't really for UW Dreadstill; even in UR the max is 2x.

    Methodical and resilient mana progression is what makes Standstill work - and 4x Saga impedes this plan, whereas Timeless Dragon progresses the mana while also letting white hands find blue mana.

    Uro is slower than Scroll, and if your list has Daze, it is much easier to Daze an Ending for x=3 than it is to pass the turn, let opponent untap, draw a card, make a land drop, and successfully stop a 1 mana Plow.

    If you're going to meme in UW with 4x Saga and Daze, you should be using Monk Class rather than Teferi.

    Understand that 4x Saga + 4x Dress Down is not a combo.

  17. #37

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    That list I posted above should be playing 2 Unholy Heat instead of Abrade and Hull Breach.

    I cant believe Ive neglected Unholy Heat. Its such a powerful effect for a single red mana.

  18. #38
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    To beat removal:
    Step 1 assemble Scroll and Teferi.
    Step 2 tap Scroll on their EoT.
    Step 3 recur it all with Sevinnes and Karn.
    Step 4 throw Standstills at them whenever, until they fall over.

    Don't play bad white cards, like Mother of Runes and Sentinel, which don't support Dreadnought in the slightest. All engine, all the time - combo in every direction. The answer to removal heavy stuff was solved a long time ago. The only interesting white creature is Timeless Dragon; again all engine, all the time.
    I don't always agree with Fox, but I 100% agree with him here.

    Methodical and resilient mana progression is what makes Standstill work - and 4x Saga impedes this plan, whereas Timeless Dragon progresses the mana while also letting white hands find blue mana.
    I feel like this is a pretty important concept as well. I think if you are committed to playing a full set of Saga in this type of deck you would have to play 24 lands, no Wastelands. Timeless Dragon is a hidden gem from MH2 that really makes UWx the best possible Dreadnought deck. I still don't like Dreadnought that much in the current metagame. Decks are playing more removal than ever, so without a higher threat density Dreadnought will be high variance. You'll either get lucky and sneak a Dreadnought in early while the opponent fumbles or you'll play against decks with little/no removal for your wins. I think you'll have a significant amount of losses where opposing decks do their usual thing in a consistent way and it will be better than your plan.

    I understand the lightning-rod mentality of playing Ragavan/DRC to take opponent's removal away from Dreadnought. However, their cheaper removal (Bolt/StP/Fatal Push) will still be effective against those early threats because they will probably draw multiple removals while you are all-in, likely, in one Dreadnought. You are just forcing them into a clear play pattern and praying you have the tools to make it work at the time, but without additional cantrips to open the window for a win. Meanwhile they don't have to put together a combo to win the game, they can just find more removal and cheap threats, which they have in abundance. Feels like a variance level I wouldn't be comfortable with. This deck falls prey to the same traps as Death's Shadow, another pet deck of mine. Both are pretty 'meh' right now.
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  19. #39

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    That sounds sweet. I would love to see a list.

    I really want to play the Dragon and Scroll of Fate and Standstill and Dreadnought and maybe Sharknado together. Is there a list in the Dreadstill thread.

    This thread is for Dreadnought in a Xerox shell. I am guessing that controllish landstill style Dreadnought lists go in the Dreadstill thread.

  20. #40

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I understand the lightning-rod mentality of playing Ragavan/DRC to take opponent's removal away from Dreadnought. However, their cheaper removal (Bolt/StP/Fatal Push) will still be effective against those early threats because they will probably draw multiple removals while you are all-in, likely, in one Dreadnought. You are just forcing them into a clear play pattern and praying you have the tools to make it work at the time, but without additional cantrips to open the window for a win. Meanwhile they don't have to put together a combo to win the game, they can just find more removal and cheap threats, which they have in abundance. Feels like a variance level I wouldn't be comfortable with. This deck falls prey to the same traps as Death's Shadow, another pet deck of mine. Both are pretty 'meh' right now.
    Like Death’s Shadow, Thoughtseize feels pretty essential in clearing the way for your all in threat.

    I think the Death Nought thread you created is a very promising route to take.

    8 1cc All in threats (4 Nought, 4 Death’s Shadow)
    Either a white splash for Esper Sentinel and Mother or Runes or a red splash to also play Dragon Rage and Ragavan as lightning rods to direct removal away from shadow
    Tons of cantrips and Confidants (another lightning rod) to help find your cheap threats
    Thoughtseize to help protect your all in threats.
    4 Dress Down as the main combo piece
    4 Wasteland + 4 Stifle to let you focus on mana disruption to make your Dazes and Esper Sentinels more powerful.

    But I do love Berserk and Sylvan Library in Death Nought, and Ignoble Hierarch and 3-4 Aether Vial if we are playing so many 1cc creatures and lands that make colorless mana.

    Perhaps if we drop the cantrips and dazes and adopt a rainbow manabase around 4 Mana Confluence, 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Caverns, 1-2 Urborg, 1-2 Yavimaya, 4 Aether Vial 2-4 Ignoble, 4 Wasteland plus possibly a Saga or two as the only colorless mana producers.

    That could work.

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