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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #341

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    12/12s are the past. Drednoughts are 16/16s now.

  2. #342
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    @Fox why must he be 3c? Why can't Dressnought be 2c?

    UR can get on board fastest to out-Delver Delver. DRC is also the best Sailors' Bane enabler.


    //Creatures: 12
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Sailors' Bane
    1 Brazen Borrower

    //Spells: 27
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Daze
    3 Expressive Iteration
    1 Force of Negation

    //Enchantments: 3
    3 Dress Down

    //Lands: 18
    4 Wasteland
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Prismatic Vista
    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Island
    1 Mountain

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Scroll of Fate
    1 Blood Moon
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Powder Keg
    2 Meltdown
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Ashiok, Dream Render


    Something roughly like that should beat Delver and combo, but will struggle against other fair blue piles. Sailors' Bane and Scroll of Fate should help the fair matches.
    The issue is that UR is one of the worst color combinations at going long, and yet games have to go long b/c you absolutely need a ton of time to set up 2 mana and an open land drop (particularly when you're losing land drops to Daze and Wasteland)...but even then you actually need 3 lands and an open land drop for Iteration b/c you are going to find yourself flipping over Stifle, Dreadnought, Brazen, Bane, Daze/FoW/FoN, Dress Down with Iteration, and you can't just cast these from exile for value. In particular if you start flipping over Nought, Brazen, Bane, Dress Down and you need mana #4; those all require 2 more mana after you blew 2 mana on Iteration.

    ^This is a really bad way to pursue CA with a deck that has A then B combo (not A plus B), and needs to have CA to cover that design choice of 2-for-1'ing yourself. You do not benefit from having high mana counts...but you need high mana counts....but you are also really bad at attaining high mana counts (18 lands). That has to be contrasted to: my CA is from Standstill -> so I have high mana counts -> I can use high mana counts profitably.

    Now there's no doubt Delver is never going to run a positive winrate against the list you provided, but they also weren't ever going to run a positive winrate against 3c StifleNought. So like what was the winrate boost vs Delver if you went from 3c to 2c? You went from maybe 80-85% favored to 85-90% favored...but your overall winrate will tank b/c you can't control what decks you're paired against (most of those decks would otherwise have a lower winrate vs you if you had Uro or Kroxa). Even if this change took you to 100% winrate vs Delver, your overall winrate would still be lower. There's only so far you can go in legacy if your only positive matchups are Delver, combo, and random tier 2 jank; at some point you have a reasonable chance of winning against the rest of tier 0, tier 1, and tier 1.5 (i.e. the meta).
    ---
    Adding the highest of high quality turn 1 plays like DRC and your deck is automatically better across all matchups, but it's still just a band-aid for a bullet wound. The CA issue is still the 800-pound gorilla, and Iteration is not the answer. You need multiple CA card names, and that means 3c for Uro or Kroxa. This is why we are seeing more results from Iteration + Uro and Iteration + Kroxa in StifleNought.

    There's very few things StifleNought's 6-round challenge top8s and 5-0 league data points tell us other than the deck farms Delver and combo. One of the only things you can really glean from those statistics is that Iteration is not good enough by itself to answer the CA problem. If Iteration were good enough by itself, we would see more finishes by UWR/UR StifleNought. As it stands, you are going to win more games with StifleNought by playing Uro + Iteration or Kroxa + Iteration or Uro without Iteration or Kroxa without Iteration, rather than just playing Iteration by itself.

    ^That's not an opinion - it's what the data thus far shows. Could the data show something else if you surround just Iteration with 2c's access to basics and DRC and Bane? Sure...highly unlikely...but sure.

  3. #343
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Now there's no doubt Delver is never going to run a positive winrate against the list you provided, but they also weren't ever going to run a positive winrate against 3c StifleNought. So like what was the winrate boost vs Delver if you went from 3c to 2c? You went from maybe 80-85% favored to 85-90% favored...
    So you're saying things like manabase stability and Daze aren't important because you're going to thrash Delver either way. That's relevant for the direction FourDogs wanted to build.

    In that case, why not play 3c with Uro. Uro is actual card advantage, while Kroxa is a questionable card. Uro clearly helps the CA issue better than EI alone. If you can beat Delver even with 3c mana, why not do it.


    //Creatures: 13
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    2 Sailors' Bane

    //Spells: 24
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Expressive Iteration
    1 Force of Negation

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Dress Down

    //Lands: 19
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Island
    3 Wasteland

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Alpine Moon
    1 Maddening Hex
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Powder Keg
    1 Meltdown
    1 Return to Nature
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Ashiok, Dream Render
    2 Surgical Extraction


    DRC mills into Uro & Bane. Uro doesn't slow down Bane. Seems good.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-21-2022 at 02:57 AM.

  4. #344
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    The issue you're going to run into is unwinnable games vs Chalice as you dropped the Brazens and don't have the land totals nor mana progression (basics) of Dreadstill to hide the Brazen effect on Otawara.

    The bigger question is what the point is, since a ban seems pretty imminent in the near future. Why are we putting CA on a card that has a target on its back? Why are we focusing on a matchup that is going to dwindle back down to only being seen in a maximum of 1-2 rounds of a 6-7 round challenge when the ban comes?

    This is the time where you focus on fixing the matchup vs blue fair removal, non-blue fair removal, Lands, and Chalice. These matchups have to be positive post-ban...otherwise you quickly lose all the 'dedicated' pilots (given that the only place left to find success with be combo-boosted leagues). I mean I guess you can gamble on Delver + DRC being enough reveal effects to let Delver go straight to 4x Predict and drop no meta share, but that seems like wishful thinking, since this type of thing gets broken up by the main response of kill their dude.
    ---
    On the DRC optimizing, you need to look at the cost of Dress Down as a 4x. The last two copies of Dress Down preclude you from running 2x Saga, and that cuts you from 1-card delirium option of tutor suicide Nought, maindeck a Relic-type, and Currency Converter x2 (even easier to turn on delirium with this).

    You're also passing up higher density of 1-drops like Lavamancer that can easily be activated and: maintain delirium, keep MindTwisters from putting lands back into your deck, beat Surgical, combine with DRC's 3 damage to kill Endurance, intentionally strip delirium to gain agency (not being forced to attack with DRC), combine with Bolt to increase effectiveness of the noncombat wincon...and still decrease cost of Sailor's Bane.

    Even though you added DRC, you haven't really dialed up the aggression to the level of 6-7 slots of DRC/Lavamancer into next turn Standstill. You're also playing so much harder into Chalice paired with an unreliable mana base. You've also condemned yourself to going up on mulligans for a bounce effect not on a land (Brazen rather than Otawara)...and when you do happen to acquire high mana you don't really have an outlet other than single card name Uro (no Sharks, no Currency Converter, etc).
    ---
    You've definitely gone up on the brute force plan, as well as going up an amount on aggression and synergy, but you kinda just put all this energy into making a sharp spearhead....that is attached to a piece of flimsy plywood.

    I doubt you would have more success or interesting gameplay than just building anti-Delver Delver:
    4x Delta
    4x Tarn
    4x Volc
    1x Steam Vents
    1x Island
    1x Mountain
    1x Shame Island
    4x Wasteland

    4x DRC
    4x Bane
    3x Lavamancer
    2x Brazen

    4x BS
    4x Ponder
    4x Daze
    4x FoW
    4x Bolt
    4x Iteration
    2x FoN (gotta go up to 2x b/c of Bane)
    1x Mine Collapse (better than Heat or Magmatic with Lavamancer, and more reliable than maindeck Pyroblast)

    Still it's worthless to build with the imminent ban, but you at least get the big dude beatdown feel and have Lavamancer to give the 7/7 "trample" as you wipe out the blocker. Killing Murkgoyf trivial with 4-5x REB effects in SB. Deck is still pretty crappy vs Chalice but at least you've got more ways to power out Bane [i.e. FoN as Dark Rit] and more Bane copies and the Brazen effect. You get to keep the feelsbad losses to suspect manabase. Fewer bad matchups than convoluting this with Dreadnought package.

  5. #345

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    There's a ban coming?

  6. #346
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    There's a ban coming?
    Would you be surprised if one happened tomorrow, next week, next month? No. Which is how you know the clock is ticking.

    You already know the target, and what the fallout is going to be as it pertains to StifleNought.

  7. #347

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I would be yeah.
    But also I'm building for the next tournament, not the tournament a week, a month, or a year from now when everyone accepts your gospel and harmonic convergence deletes whatever card you're talking about now.

  8. #348

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    What card is getting banned? I canít tell from over here in the cheap seats.
    Last edited by BirdsOfParadise; 09-25-2022 at 03:58 AM.

  9. #349
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    So you're saying things
    lol, Fox going off the deep end. (building with Mine Collapse and Lavamancer for that imaginary future meta; durdling Saga into suicide-Dreadnought lines for that sweet sweet going-down-a-card-to-flip-my-DRC, kitchen-table style. Super.)

    @FTW:
    That last list looks pretty good to me. Couple of considerations:
    - I would probably still run MTR over Bane in a deck that's a little bit light on removal to get rid of chump blockers. Maxtortion's RUG builds (with and w/o Dreadnoughts) seem to suggest that Uro & Murky in the same deck works just fine.
    - Fluster over FoN in the main has always felt correct to me in Tempo Dreadnought
    - 1st Scroll of Fate over 4th Dress Down is an idea (also a decent hedge vs. Chalice)
    - 5x GY hate in the side seems excessive, especially for a deck that already hoses combo with 8-9 free counters and turn-2 12/12s. I would a) definitely turn Return to Nature into Ancient Grudge and b) consider swapping out Relic for some anti-blue-pile tech (Minsc & Boo; Life/Loam; or just Carpet or another blast)
    - Keep the Ashiok, that card is awesome.

  10. #350

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    How does Minsc and Boo work as anti blue tech?
    People keep telling me the card is good and I want to test it but I don't really know the function of it, when to keep it when to pitch it, ect.

  11. #351
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Yeah I don't think you want to be running Murktide in the same list as 4x Uro. For as out there as you think Mine Collapse is, there are approximately 0x Delver decks running Mag Sinkhole.
    ---
    You know Iteration is getting banned, so I'm not really building for the future. So if we take a look at FTW's list, we also know that is not built for the future, as it runs the same negative matchup profile vs the majority of tier decks.

    So the question is, why exactly you'd add an unsupported Dreadnought module [4x Nought and 8x enabler] to a Delver base while losing aggression (4x Delver, 4x Daze) and losing points vs Chalice (missing 2x Brazen). Climbing up the mana curve on the same number of lands is only ever going to make so much sense; particularly without the promise of mana progression that basics offer.

    So if you wanted to play Bane over Murkgoyf, then it's not like having a Dreadnought module that half the time strips your own ward 4 is exactly synergy. Cutting the Brazens that discount Bane, again not synergy.

    Ask yourself @Tobitzki:
    -does it matter to Bane if Lavamancer moves something from GY to exile? No.
    -does losing keyword flying increase the importance of having repeatable anti-chump block cards like Lavamancer? Yes.
    -should you have a higher focus on speed if you've chosen Bane over Murktide? Yes, 7 specific cards is more than 5 any-cards.
    -should you have a higher focus on speed if you're trying to get Bane down while ward 4 is still active, and also be able to push it up to ward 5 with Daze? Yes...and yes, free spells [e.g. Mine Collapse and 2nd FoN] add speed to deploying Bane; particularly under a DRC.
    ---
    ^you can build for Bane today, before the impending ban hits, but not with Dreadnought cards - there's no synergy there. That's a problem b/c synergy is where the win % comes from with Dreadnought (and any other deck that deviates from mono-1-card combos).

    As far as Dreadnought goes you already know where the meta is going with the looming Iteration ban. StifleNought is losing it's most successful CA setup (Titan + Iteration > only Titan > only Iteration)...StifleNought is losing the ability to get paired vs Delver for half of the rounds of a small challenge...and you know removal-based magic (Plow/Ending) is going to fill that gap. This is going to happen while Delver waits for the next Gitaxian/DRS/Ragavan/Wrenn/Oko/DHA/CA effect.

    The card you might want to incorporate, given that Dreadnought is a 1 mana artifact, versus all that spot removal might just be a couple of Saga. Making 2x dudes and getting a third thing is probably a good start in the right direction. Might be good to follow that up with CA source they can't use white cards against, like say Standstill. Might be good to have built in protection from dying b/c you flooded on Dreadnoughts that you didn't have to draw thanks to Saga, or could loot away off a Currency Converter again thanks to Saga. Might want to slow your roll on that Dress Down quad laser and start thinking about mana security and the long game. Might want to consider investing in a positive matchup against more than just Delver and tier combo.

  12. #352

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Even without Iteration I don't think I've ever seen a meta where delver was the top legacy deck. I'll admit I only got into legcy when it was called Canadian Thresh, but still It's the same deck. Just Goyf flies and Mongoose filters. And neither is green.

  13. #353
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    For as out there as you think Mine Collapse is, there are approximately 0x Delver decks running Mag Sinkhole.
    lol whut?

    (Have you read Mine Collapse?? Let stay in reality and agree that Unholy Heat is only reasonable Bolts #4-6 option here

    re: losing aggression: I might be on board with putting a couple Dazes back into the deck. And I'm also a fan of Brazen B, but it's a matter of assessing risk, I don't think there's a definite correct # (it's probably the FoN slot).

    But I disagree with the "unsupported Dreadnought module" view: Those 8 enablers all have text on their own, and can also work to cheat in Uro (part B of the combo) to clock the opp in the appropriate MU. That's a lot of redundancy.

    On Bane vs. Murky: I think Bane is a cute hedge vs. spot removal (esp. w/ all those red blasts around) but over all the power gap between the two is just too large to justify Bane. The idea of Uro escape into Bane is cool, but at that point in the game, ward 4 quickly loses its shine. On the other hand I really don't think warping the whole deck around Bane is worth it.

    @FourDogs: M&B is a house in general (except vs. Delver in particular), but especially strong vs. Jeskai-type strategies. There's plenty of recent content all over the platforms showcasing it's power.

  14. #354

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    @FourDogs: M&B is a house in general (except vs. Delver in particular), but especially strong vs. Jeskai-type strategies. There's plenty of recent content all over the platforms showcasing it's power.
    Do you have a recommendation where I can see this? I've already got my Togedemru Boo tokens, I'm just too baby brained to see it.

  15. #355
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    lol whut?
    There's a word we use for Mag Sinkhole in Delver before Murktide - that word is "stock". The reason they stopped using it is not what it did, but that it was competing for GY with Murktide. That's why you see cards like Unholy Heat in this slot.

    Now given that they'd otherwise still be playing 1 mana deal 5 (since they often play 1 mana maybe deal 6), is it really that hard to understand that 0 mana deal 5 is probably just fine in the context of actively wanting to play Lavamancer with Bane (Collapse floats a red and puts 2 in the yard for Lavamancer...which clears the chumpers) and wanting to turbo out a Bane (0 mana investment helps here), such that ward 4 has text?

    You can ofc just play UR Delver with Murktide....but the question posed here is about Bane. The competitive decisions flow chart featuring Bane does not end on Dreadnought when you map it out.

    Bane wants faster play, more aggressive costs, and a mechanism to push damage through. StifleNought is diametrically opposed to this strategy as: it is much slower in the 1 mana threat department, it is much worse with Daze (passing late turns with summoning sick removal targets Daze will never protect), and it's half of its tech [Dress Down] doesn't discount Bane...while also stripping keyword ward.

    So again really not about Bane vs Murktide so much as should we put Bane with Nought - and the answer there is decidedly no.

  16. #356

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    so much as should we put Bane with Nought - and the answer there is decidedly no.
    Have you played with the card yet?

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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Do you have a recommendation where I can see this?
    like, do you mean links?

    Maxtortion's RUG Stiflenought 4-1 (getting Delvered in r4, hilariously)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ScH85YNIg&t=1747s

    great Jarvis league on 4C Hamster Cntrl
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ka0sCQSLuw&t=7311s

    one of Anu's back-to-back Challenge wins on Yorion Hamster (you'll find more Hamster content on his YT):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRqO4MWkhME&t=10858s

    BoshnRoll also has some M&B content up

  18. #358

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    like, do you mean links?

    Maxtortion's RUG Stiflenought 4-1 (getting Delvered in r4, hilariously)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ScH85YNIg&t=1747s

    great Jarvis league on 4C Hamster Cntrl
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ka0sCQSLuw&t=7311s

    one of Anu's back-to-back Challenge wins on Yorion Hamster (you'll find more Hamster content on his YT):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRqO4MWkhME&t=10858s

    BoshnRoll also has some M&B content up
    TY

  19. #359

  20. #360
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Have you played with the card yet?
    Don't need to. Kinda the same way I didn't need to play your deck against ANT to know not to cut Dress Down and Nought while bringing in 1cmc cards you kept tapping yourself out of.

    There's nothing wrong with learning by experience, but learning by wisdom is a better model. We're talking about a card that is smaller than MurkGoyf, slower than MurkGoyf, and down keyword flying vs MurkGoyf. At a baseline you have to either be getting on board faster than MurkGoyf or have other cards to answer MurkGoyf; otherwise you have failed the Goyf test.

    You're sitting too high on the mana curve to be fast. You're sitting too high on the curve to incorporate Daze + ward 4. You're not fixing these problems by adding a Dreadnought module. You've created another problem where Dress Down strips ward; and just like we know you can't play 4x Saga and 4x Dress Down (b/c it strands Dress Down in your hand), for the same reasons + Dress Down stripping your payoff (ward 4) is quite bad. There's also a problem with not discounting the cost + cutting Brazen (does discount cost) + increasing the problems vs Chalice.

    So Sailors' Bane is a super cool and all, but you bought yourself an even worse matchup vs MurkGoyf and Chalice....so that you could learn the hard way that it's going to feel real bad when you're trying to cycle a Dress Down and Bane dies without ward.

    Just think about it critically: what turn does a Kappa Cannoneer come down? When does MurkGoyf come down? Do you really think StifleNought can get this card down before turn 5 reliably...and what can your opponent do with 5 turns of land drops - perhaps pay for a kill spell and ward 4?

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