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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #181
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Without Retrofitter, don't the Saga tokens risk being unimpressive 2/2s? In Landstill I had ways to chain multiple Sagas, but here without Retrofitter you're accepting just making bears. Low ceiling. Are you saying it's better to just accept the bears as incidental value instead of committing harder to the Construct plan and risking a blow out?

    In a Daze build there's no Karn to wish for targets, so isn't Needle (tutorable with Saga) at least better than other options?

    Would you still play cards like EE and Torpor when they're not tutorable?

  2. #182
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Without Retrofitter, don't the Saga tokens risk being unimpressive 2/2s? In Landstill I had ways to chain multiple Sagas, but here without Retrofitter you're accepting just making bears. Low ceiling. Are you saying it's better to just accept the bears as incidental value instead of committing harder to the Construct plan and risking a blow out?

    In a Daze build there's no Karn to wish for targets, so isn't Needle (tutorable with Saga) at least better than other options?

    Would you still play cards like EE and Torpor when they're not tutorable?
    I'm fine with them being 3/3s (Furnace is 3rd artifact). I am not a fan of losing a land drop, tapping 6 lands to make 2x constructs, and then tutor a Retro I can't activate (or even if I could, I get a whole 1/1 that will never accomplish anything). The way this story ends is they Dress Down your dudes and Ending your Retro, and you're the fool with Daze in your deck vs an opponent you just gave 4 turns of land drops to. You need to be able to attack a resource and go up a card vs the obvious Ending (which they are forced to use on Furnace b/c the yard damage is overwhelming if left unchecked).

    Needle has the same issues described above; you're just killing yourself with Daze. If you do this to yourself with flawed deck construction, it really isn't worth playing a game at all if opponent has Island, Plains, and Ending in their deck. Save time and walk away...knowing that such deck construction creates a catastrophic weakness versus around 20-25% of the meta (Grixis, Counterbalance, MindTwister, Uro).

    Torpor is sometimes there, sometimes not in UR. UR's wrath problem is pretty awful, so I'd have at least one SB slot of Keg or EE. Two slots of space in EE + Keg is also fine as it hits so much of the meta.

  3. #183
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I'm fine with them being 3/3s (Furnace is 3rd artifact).
    2/2 is likely. Assuming Retrofitter doesn't survive, another Saga target wouldn't either (or they kill a Construct). Good point that Phyrexian Furnace is better than Soul-Guide Lantern at forcing a profitable trade, at the expense of being worse tempo for GY interaction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I am not a fan of losing a land drop, tapping 6 lands to make 2x constructs, and then tutor a Retro I can't activate (or even if I could, I get a whole 1/1 that will never accomplish anything). The way this story ends is they Dress Down your dudes and Ending your Retro
    What else are the lands doing under Standstill? If they remove Retro, you draw 3 and maybe make a 1/1 (7 power on board instead of 4). Unlikely you fall behind.

    Retro forces them to play into Standstill sooner. Otherwise tap for 1/1 -> 9 power on board (4/4+4/4+1/1) -> Next turn 12 power on board (5/5 + 5/5 + 1/1 + 1/1). That gives opponent little time to topdeck out and 3 things to stop (2 constructs + Retro), so it is very unlikely they stabilize through Standstill. With Furnace it caps at 6 power on board. Slower clock means opponent has more time to draw out of it, more time to build mana vs Daze+Waste, and fewer permanents to answer through Standstill (Furnace is not an imminent problem). Are you saying that's "win-more" in those matches while the downside is higher?

    If no Standstill out, Dreadnought is the primary target anyway. Or SB hate.

    Without Standstill you aren't tapping out for Constructs->Retro if you had anything else to do with your mana. But what else do you need mana for on the tempo plan (low curve, Daze, no mana progression)? Above curve ends at 2 lol. Saga+Retro converts excess mana into value.

    For the 25% of matchups where it's catastrophically bad, nothing forces you to tutor for the Retro or keep it main postboard. Get Furnace/Soul-Guide instead?

  4. #184
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    It's pretty rare that you will need to do more than make two assembly worker-sized dudes under a Standstill to force opponents into making bad decisions. If you've assembled Standstill + Saga, the Retrofitter tutor on top of it is just excessive; you're not gaining win % b/c you topped it all off with Retro. It's similar to playing Karn in a deck without Sol Lands and wishing for a Lattice that shouldn't be in your SB; you don't get bonus points for overkilling already-dead opponents...but you definitely lose points for allowing someone escape Daze range while getting everything from Saga 1-for-1'd [Dress Down into Ending]. If that's what you're doing, you may as well cut Saga and go back to Factory. While it is cool that constructs can be larger than an assembly worker, it's not something you should be going all-in on.

    Even if you don't want to do the Furnace-type or Map, you can't look at Retrofitter and be like "this is better than Currency Converter." Currency turns all discards into 2/2s [effectively making it a non-Wasteland'able Field of the Dead]. Otherwise you can loot and fix your hand as the game drags on. Retrofitter is a horrid card here; you're not playing 8x thopter like Ninjas, nor are you meme'ing with Ancient Tomb stuff. Retro dies and does nothing or dies and makes a 1/1; anything more than that is pretty magical christmasland'y.

  5. #185
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If you've assembled Standstill + Saga, the Retrofitter tutor on top of it is just excessive; you're not gaining win % b/c you topped it all off with Retro. While it is cool that constructs can be larger than an assembly worker, it's not something you should be going all-in on.
    Fair point. With Landstill I had a couple games where Standstill + slow clock gave combo too many draw steps to draw into outs before being forced to crack Standstill (Map into 2nd Saga is slower). I thought that problem would be amplified in a Daze deck because taking longer turns off your own outs (draw 3 into Daze, if you miss Force). You've got far, far more reps though, so maybe that doesn't come up often enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    but you definitely lose points for allowing someone escape Daze range while getting everything from Saga 1-for-1'd [Dress Down into Ending].
    The point was to have a line that doesn't let them escape Daze range by threatening a faster clock, forcing interaction sooner. If they get more turns to draw cards and play more lands, Standstill -> Daze fails. This isn't UW. Standstill draws into Bolt and Daze, not StP and Verdict. The interaction you can draw gets worse if they have more time.

    T1 Retro T2 Standstill also gives +1 threat to sneak under Standstill, forcing interaction, even if Retro by itself is slow. Furnace doesn't double as another threat, so slightly lower odds of curving threat into Standstill.

    You're only "allowing them" to escape Daze range if you take turns off for Saga when you could have used that mana on other things, then the Saga gambit fails (opponent finds a way to trade positively, e.g. Dress Down + Ending or Meltdown). But if you have nothing else to use the mana on, they still escape Daze if you got Furnace or didn't make Constructs. Doing less doesn't make them play into Daze. Don't you fall behind to Dress Down either way? What other meaningful decision do you have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Retro dies and does nothing or dies and makes a 1/1; anything more than that is pretty magical christmasland'y.
    If they have the Ending/Shatter and don't have to use it on Retro, Dreadnought dies instead. In that scenario, what do you do instead to stay ahead of Ending? You can get Furnace to avoid bad trades, but then you don't have a threat and they aren't forced to trade negatively with Furnace. They can save removal for your next threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Even if you don't want to do the Furnace-type or Map, you can't look at Retrofitter and be like "this is better than Currency Converter."
    Tbh I haven't looked at Currency Converter, new card. Card looks good. It's slower to speed up the Saga clock (2/2s are non-artifact, 2 taps to make 1 Treasure) but overall it does make better threats and value. Looks like most Saga decks are running it over Retro, or just cutting Retro period.

  6. #186
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    They're going to re-cast the removal either by SCM or Day's/Endurance re-shuffle or just Sevinne's back a Teferi and bounce. You have to double-kill the removal spells from decks like these, and while it's fine to duress the removal spell from hand with a dude, you can't be using a second dude to vindicate the removal from GY to exile. The way you beat these decks is being able mill their GY to exile with permanents that don't get seen by Plow.

    It's incredibly annoying and tedious work to take these midrange decks [people mistakenly call control] and reduce them to hellbent, mill their deck, and also mill their GY to exile.

    Now ofc UR has a harder time doing this than UW, but the compensation is being able to burn them out...but we have a problem where 2nd construct is made, Retro is tutored, and then no life total damage is done b/c of Dress Down before damage step, and then they Ending the Retro. Zero progress was made, and you can't afford that. You didn't clear the way for Dreadnought at all, that Ending in GY is still the one that's going to get you.

    Again it's real effing tedious, but you're going to have to either: draw a card off their Ending or Map for Saga #2. It's all great and wonderful if the thing you tutored didn't instantly die before you ever untapped with it, b/c that would represent advantage under the next Standstill whether it's eating yard, making dudes, or finding Saga again...but that thing you grabbed is going to die 9 times out of 10, so it needs to participate in the rebuild effort - and this is where Retro is an abject failure of a magic card.

    Here's how this needs to go down:
    -if no 4th mana (or land 4 in hand) do not make 2nd dude [dies to same Dress Down], ensure mana for Map or Furnace-type or Currency Converter.
    -if 4th mana you get to make 2nd dude and protect Furnace-type
    -if 5th mana you get to make 2nd dude and protect Map or Currency.
    -if less than 5 mana get killed by your own Retro.
    -if 5 or more mana get killed b/c a 1/1 servo off a dead Retro still loses.

    You can't afford to not get closer to the next Standstill or have fodder for Scroll of Fate when magical christmasland doesn't happen. I get the temptation though; on the surface T1 Retro into Standstill seems great, and unchallenged Retro with gobs of mana seems great, and getting uber-big constructs off Saga seems great, and gobs of mana and thopter block spams vs Murktide seems great...but that's just never going to reliably happen. You're are going to lose horribly more often than not b/c the fail case Retro is awful. The card is a trap.

  7. #187
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The way you beat these decks is being able mill their GY to exile with permanents that don't get seen by Plow.

    It's incredibly annoying and tedious work to take these midrange decks [people mistakenly call control] and reduce them to hellbent, mill their deck, and also mill their GY to exile.
    I can see that plan working for UW Dreadstill or Landstill, but is it viable for UR?

    Slow-attacking their graveyard with Furnace does take away their tools eventually, but delaying the game that long (Turn 20+) gets worse and worse for UR. Furnace takes time. You gain small advantages from Furnace picking away, but then you get punished in the draw step (Daze, mana denial, mana flood) while the UWx midrange deck pulls ahead with its superior lategame. By the time Furnace has protected you from extra removals, opponent pulled ahead in other ways. Overall how does UR come out on top with this plan? Is there a meaningful gain in win%, or is this just a loss either way?

    Even if you successfully exile-mill their graveyard to prevent recursion, they have as many removals as we have threats, so they may remove everything anyway. Delaying till Turn 20+ just draws them into that removal, by the time you've dodged Snap-Plow.

    Isn't it much easier for UR to Surgical Extraction the 1st Plow/Ending? Then you just need to spend 1 body to Duress them (instead of 4) and you can exile from graveyard immediately without waiting many turns to hit the right cards. Surgical also breathes some life into the mana denial plan (Stifle+Surgical a 4x fetch), which is otherwise dead unless they built really badly.

    1-of Soul-Guide Lantern or Relic of Progenitus off Saga will clear their graveyard much more quickly without costing so many turns, while Furnace forces a longer game.

    Edit: Or what about running a back-up threat that is Protection from White or Hexproof? Since white removal is the worst matchup, instead of trying to slowly grind them out of all white removal, why not play a threat that ignores it? Kroxa fails here, but something else could do the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    but we have a problem where 2nd construct is made, Retro is tutored, and then no life total damage is done b/c of Dress Down before damage step
    With 1 mana open we can postcombat Dreadnought off their Dress Down, so the 2nd construct could be favorable to make if Dreadnought's in hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Again it's real effing tedious, but you're going to have to either: draw a card off their Ending or Map for Saga #2. It's all great and wonderful if the thing you tutored didn't instantly die before you ever untapped with it, b/c that would represent advantage under the next Standstill whether it's eating yard, making dudes, or finding Saga again...but that thing you grabbed is going to die 9 times out of 10, so it needs to participate in the rebuild effort
    Furnace just doesn't seem like enough of a rebuild to matter. Especially for UR, which has to be the aggressor in the matchup. Map into Saga #2 at least keeps the pressure on. Currency Converter would too.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-01-2022 at 04:56 PM.

  8. #188
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    It is easier to do postboard with a 2nd Furnace-type and Ashioks. The main thing is turning Saga into a card they can't tolerate, and must bleed hand size to handle (and by handle I mean discard a card while I draw a card). Either endpoint is a losing proposition for them on this axis; the bigger problem with UR is that Daze is a worthless card in the matchup which also costs me the ability to ship a spell straight to exile (FoN) to help the Furnace-type control GY and it costs me Karn and the ability to destroy their 1x basic Mountain and completely strip red...at which point they auto-lose to Scroll of Fate, having access to only 2 colors.

    The way it plays out with Daze present is early dude vs Plow while Stifle/Waste/Daze vs spells, the game usually progresses to Standstill & draw 3 goes after their PW plays, and I switch out of playing Plow targets and only put down Ending targets. In comes a Furnace-type and looks for a floor of killing 2x Ending (-1 Ending from hand targeting Furnace, -1 previously-cast Ending from GY). As long as Day's and Echo are not banned, the game settles to a race to Otawara target Narset vs Day's on stack (note that Lavamancer is doing his part to make sure lands don't make it back into my deck). Damage is being towards life total throughout this process, with the goal being to deplete all remaining Plows and SCMs with lands and Dazes played as 2/2 manifest in late game; combine with Bolt targeting life total to duress remaining blue cards. Avoid spending blue to kill non-blue as much as possible. It's pretty scrappy and tedious, and UW Dreadstill or UBw Landstill have way better tools, but at the end of the day all UWR decks have no access to playable, quality lifegain; it's just a long drawn-out process of counting to 20 against them.

    The main issue is that Daze is a trash magic card, except vs aggressive combos and Delver...and you'd rather have FoN and Karn vs combo. It's tiring to be forced to run it b/c of Delver's race to the bottom. That said, the Delver matchup is a pushover. The matchup vs UWR is at best "fine" b/c we had to run Daze; we certainly will beat UWR more than Delver can (Delver has to pathologically jam futile threats into known interaction, so they're all-in UWR not figuring out that all they have to do is break EI/Shame Island/Daze loop). The bigger issue is that UWR is playing banned effects [MindTwister] which randomly happens to dumpster Uro, a card which otherwise makes their color set completely unplayable (once Day's is banned with Echo, they must all turn to 3-4c Uro midrange to compete. This solves the matchup annoyance).

    We can talk about things like Surgical and Soul-Guide/Relic, but it's kind of pointless b/c we're talking about what we can do to react to a format warped by the presence of banned effects. Once wotc wakes up and bans legacy's worst offenders, Furnace will already be pointed at Murktide [Goyf] and Uro [FIRE] while Hymn/CB/MindTwister [total hand destruction] disappears again. The mechanics of what we want are repeatable yard reduction, option to cantrip, and leaving our GY alone [DRC, Lavamancer]; that's where Soul-Guide and Relic don't fit in as well as Furnace. The better option is to just play UBw Landstill or UW Dreadstill while the format is on life support thanks to Day's, Echo, and Daze. These color combinations play more non-dudes on 3 and have built-in basic Mountain killing for total red stripping from UWR as another way to punish mono-cropping on Ending. Both also play the Otawara subgame vs Day's and Ashioks + yard hate pieces for total library and GY kills. UBw has Cling, Drown, and direct PW kill spells, while UW has very easy yolo-Karn wish Liquimetal lines thanks to March now targeting coated basics or PWs.

    What we're seeing in legacy is Oko was enough of a 1-card combo to stamp MindTwister out of the format (people tried if for like 3 weeks, and stopped when they realized they're still just going to die to elk beats), some Uro things, Ragavan arriving and continuing to suppress MindTwister and force Uro play (lifegain), and now the last FIRE card's not being able to suppress MindTwister having lost the Ragavan shields Delver was giving them. As for Delver, it's scrubbing out b/c Goyf is trash vs UWR, even when it's called MurkGoyf. For all the StifleNought players, welcome to legacy where you no longer get to roll just Delver in challenges; back to leagues to find enough over-represented combo matchups in a row. On the spectrum of winrates vs UWR total hand destruction, subset MindTwister: UBw Landstill ~ UW Dreadstill > UWr Standstill ~ UR Dreadstill > UR Delver >>> StifleNought.

  9. #189
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    We can talk about things like Surgical and Soul-Guide/Relic, but it's kind of pointless b/c we're talking about what we can do to react to a format warped by the presence of banned effects. Once wotc wakes up and bans legacy's worst offenders, Furnace will already be pointed at Murktide [Goyf] and Uro [FIRE] while Hymn/CB/MindTwister [total hand destruction] disappears again.
    It's very relevant since this is the format. Overpowered/banned FIRE effects are a feature, not a bug. They won't ban this one until they've printed the next 3. The ban is then a lame attempt to "fix" the format to appease players, at face value. But really it's a mechanism to force Eternal players to dump money into the next necessary FIRE chase-Mythic, without getting compensation for the money spent on the last one (banned). This is highly profitable for them short-term and unlikely to change. They don't care about Eternal players unless they can bait us into spending more money. Eternal was historically their least profitable market (and most profitable for secondary market), so shareholders dictate they make printings and bannings in a way to reverse that. Fairness of the game is secondary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The mechanics of what we want are repeatable yard reduction, option to cantrip, and leaving our GY alone [DRC, Lavamancer]; that's where Soul-Guide and Relic don't fit in as well as Furnace.
    That fits better with the Daze-less UR control plan. Furnace leaves our yard alone and is repeatable but also takes forever to hit the right cards (e.g. cannot exile multiple StP in response to Day's/Echo/Endurance on the stack). It's a very slow grind that prolongs the game. The tempo cost is real for a low-curve Daze deck. Against GY combos Furnace also struggles if they have more than 1 relevant target to hit.

    Is Soul-Guide not good enough? You can just hold it to respond to their Day's/Echo/Endurance/Snapcaster. While it's not "repeatable", it still exiles everything before opponent can use it. The Relic/Furnace effect is better vs Murktide and DRC, though that's a different matchup.

    What about Unlicensed Hearse? Manifests, Constructs and Currency Converter tokens turn into X/X haste. You can even crew with Dreadnought before the sacrifice trigger. That seems good for a UR tempo plan, while Furnace forces a long drawn out control game for a deck without enough control tools.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    What we're seeing in legacy is Oko was enough of a 1-card combo to stamp MindTwister out of the format (people tried if for like 3 weeks, and stopped when they realized they're still just going to die to elk beats), some Uro things, Ragavan arriving and continuing to suppress MindTwister and force Uro play (lifegain), and now the last FIRE card's not being able to suppress MindTwister having lost the Ragavan shields Delver was giving them. As for Delver, it's scrubbing out b/c Goyf is trash vs UWR, even when it's called MurkGoyf. For all the StifleNought players, welcome to legacy where you no longer get to roll just Delver in challenges; back to leagues to find enough over-represented combo matchups in a row. On the spectrum of winrates vs UWR total hand destruction, subset MindTwister: UBw Landstill ~ UW Dreadstill > UWr Standstill ~ UR Dreadstill > UR Delver >>> StifleNought.
    What about Stiflenought playing MindTwister as its draw engine?

  10. #190
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    It's very relevant since this is the format. Overpowered/banned FIRE effects are a feature, not a bug. They won't ban this one until they've printed the next 3. The ban is then a lame attempt to "fix" the format to appease players, at face value. But really it's a mechanism to force Eternal players to dump money into the next necessary FIRE chase-Mythic, without getting compensation for the money spent on the last one (banned). This is highly profitable for them short-term and unlikely to change. They don't care about Eternal players unless they can bait us into spending more money. Eternal was historically their least profitable market (and most profitable for secondary market), so shareholders dictate they make printings and bannings in a way to reverse that. Fairness of the game is secondary.
    For the most part FIRE design is fine; stupid, but fine. The defining characteristic of FIRE is that it invalidates at least Goyf or total hand destruction, and most often it invalidates both at the same time. As far as Standstill decks are concerned, FIRE has minimal effect on viability or our card selections. We note a healthier format with FIRE pushing out Counterbalance and Hymn, and although MindTwister flavor of total hand destruction is beyond idiotic, it's either much slower (UWR) or all-in (Echo cannon). The decks most affected by FIRE are those which have no strategy beyond playing the most power-crept 1-card combos; as such, they don't have any defense other than buying the new FIRE card and changing colors to cast it. As far as fairness goes, there's no point in having rules that player 2 gets to keep or mulligan an opening hand if they're just going to get LED/Echo'd out of it before ever getting a turn to use the hand they chose. So especially with Echo there is a game structure problem, whereas with UWR we're all sitting here looking at Timetwister and Mind Twist on the banlist and going "wtf wotc?"

    Your financial point holds up better with Wrenn, Oko, and Ragavan. All cards that were exceptionally easy to identify as needing to be banned (though Wrenn did mask the Oko problem while it was legal). The counterpoint would be that Breach, Valki, and Lurrus all got banned [for Valki, effectively banned] largely before paper profits.

    That fits better with the Daze-less UR control plan. Furnace leaves our yard alone and is repeatable but also takes forever to hit the right cards (e.g. cannot exile multiple StP in response to Day's/Echo/Endurance on the stack). It's a very slow grind that prolongs the game. The tempo cost is real for a low-curve Daze deck. Against GY combos Furnace also struggles if they have more than 1 relevant target to hit.

    Is Soul-Guide not good enough? You can just hold it to respond to their Day's/Echo/Endurance/Snapcaster. While it's not "repeatable", it still exiles everything before opponent can use it. The Relic/Furnace effect is better vs Murktide and DRC, though that's a different matchup.


    What about Unlicensed Hearse? Manifests, Constructs and Currency Converter tokens turn into X/X haste. You can even crew with Dreadnought before the sacrifice trigger. That seems good for a UR tempo plan, while Furnace forces a long drawn out control game for a deck without enough control tools.
    I wouldn't say the tempo plan suffers any more than say casting Ponder hurts Delver's tempo plan. Where Ponder sets up the next turn, Furnace is more likely to generate a trade (potentially forcing an opponent to turn on Daze). The floor with Furnace-types is always cantripping. Always remember that a 0 or 1cmc non-dude artifact that draws a card without going to the GY/exile is a 100% banned card (see also SDT, Astro); these types of cards have a deceptively high power level at baseline. They don't need to do everything, because just by resolving with a mana up you will always accomplish the goal of restricting the opponent's lines of play. Relic is better at keeping our DRC alive (strip own delirium to avoid attack into obvious Endurance or Ice-Fang), but it wipes our own GY, ends up in exile (relevant for Karn), and gives opponent the option to exile lands rather than instant/sorceries (Murktide, SCM). Furnace is more aggressive as it goes to GY for DRC/Lavamancer and it removes choice from the opponent, but in exchange you lose the nuclear GY option. Soul-Guide I generally dislike b/c it just doesn't ever stop Murktide or Goyf, it merely delays these without drawing a card...which means your opponent has an easier path to rebuilding GY. It is rare that Soul-Guide's ETB was enough to not need to nuke the yard, and also rare that the GY nuke mode was rather than .

    Hearse is not a great card when we're targeting Uro and Murktide. This is one of those cards where it's the best thing Ancient Tomb has access to. The closest this would get to my deck is a SB slot for Karn wish. It's actually rather fascinating to see UBW mages choosing to play Hearse over the vastly superior card: Kaya 3cmc.

    With the Furnace, I'm looking for a prison element that constricts play rather than just pillow forts. Furnace achieves this while advancing my other plans (especially DRC), where Relic and Soul-Guide can't quite deliver on the same level. In the future I'm waiting for casting cost, tap to exile target card in a GY, pay or without tapping to wipe all of target player's GY & draw a card.

    What about Stiflenought playing MindTwister as its draw engine?
    Not competitive, just lower winrate than Narset x4 downticking to find 1x Day's or LED/Echo. You would also be disfavored in the MindTwister mirror; you're just playing harder into their Plow/Ending or Chalice.
    ^This is the kind of nonsense Blade players do, telling themselves adding SDT/CB or Hymn or Oko or Uro or Ragavan or DHA, diluted by their bad cards (SFM/equip), is progress.

  11. #191

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    How does Slip Out the Back interact with Uro/Kroxa/Hunted Horror?

    Because both Dress Down and Stifle interact beautifully with those cards.

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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    How does Slip Out the Back interact with Uro/Kroxa/Hunted Horror?

    Because both Dress Down and Stifle interact beautifully with those cards.
    ETB still happens (good for Kroxa/Uro, horrible for Hunted).

  13. #193

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    ETB still happens (good for Kroxa/Uro, horrible for Hunted).
    So does Uro still stick around the way it does after a dress down or stifle?

    Or is it only useful to protect Uro from exile effects like StP?

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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    So does Uro still stick around the way it does after a dress down or stifle?
    Correct.

  15. #195

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    It both enables the combo and also protects your threats from all forms of removal with additional utility vs blockers and vs decks like Doomsday, its an automatic 4 of.

    Simic Dressnought 2.0

    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Prismatic Vista
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Forest
    2 Tropical Island
    3-4 Wasteland
    1-3 Urza's Saga

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    4 Dress Down
    4 Stifle
    4 Slip Out the Back
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    1 Mishra's Bauble
    3-4 Flex Slots (Ice-Fang Coatl? Urza’s Saga tutor package? Murktide Regent? Sylvan Library? Brazen Borrower? Force of Negation? Tarmogoyf?)

    I expect to see the above list in the next 5-0 deck dump.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-04-2022 at 09:52 AM.

  16. #196

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    How does Slip Out the Back interact with Uro/Kroxa/Hunted Horror?

    Because both Dress Down and Stifle interact beautifully with those cards.
    Phased out means you can't sacrifice them. So good with the Titans because you still get the etb triggers.
    For the same reason bad with the hunted cycle.

  17. #197

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    It both enables the combo and also protects your threats from all forms of removal with additional utility vs blockers and vs decks like Doomsday, its an automatic 4 of.

    The deck builds itself…

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    4 Dress Down
    4 Stifle
    4 Slip Out the Back
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    1 Mishra's Bauble
    3-4 Flex Slots (Ice-Fang Coatl? Urza’s Saga tutor package? Murktide? Sylvan Library? Brazen Borrower? Force of Negation? Tarmogoyf?)
    19-20 Lands (including 1-3 Urza’s Saga and 3-4 Wasteland together)
    Yes this is what I'm trying to build, but I don't think you need slip out the back.
    I instead went with endurance, ledger shredder, and soon: sailor's bane. I might try one or two Ambitious dragonborn but it's looking too pricey at 4.
    I like bane over murktide because it plays better with uro and has ward. (Murktide, of course, is cheaper and flies)

  18. #198

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I haven't played with the new cards yet but Endurance is indeed a great option for the flex slot. By moving my Endurances from my sideboard over to the maindeck, I free up 2 valuable slots in the board. Perhaps this...

    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Prismatic Vista
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Forest
    2 Tropical Island
    4 Wasteland

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    4 Dress Down
    4 Stifle
    4 Slip Out the Back
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Ice-Fang Coatl
    2 Endurance

    Or is it worth it to maindeck 2 Mishra's Baubles in order to play some Urza's Sagas?

    Edit: After thinking about it, Sailors Bane seems like it could be amazing as 1-2 of.

  19. #199

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    A petal and a retrofitter foundry.
    Maybe even a wavesifter

  20. #200
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Bauble is a bad card, it is either all-in (Ancient Tomb) or the worst card in the deck (Delver, Shadow). If you are adding Saga, the card you are not trying to grab is Bauble, particularly for Murktide or Sailor's Bane. When you're not doing all-in stuff, the point of Bauble is to be a jank card to help with delirium...which you don't need. There is zero reason to run Bauble when Saga tutor suicide Nought is 1-card delirium.

    Saga does not help Sailor's Bane get out quicker. With a god hand, a tuned legacy deck can cast it on turn 3...but realistically turn 4 is the best you can hope for (and this would be uncommonly ahead of schedule). You've also got this problem where Uro and Saga are not best friends...and you've got a problem b/c you can't afford to let Dress Down x4 rot in hand, unable to cast it b/c it will wipe your own constructs.

    UG are the wrong colors for Sailor's Bane. You will quickly finding yourself chasing down really bad ideas like Saga -> Manifold Key. The way you play Sailor's Bane is 4x DRC and 2-3x Grim Lavamancer. Note how hitting 1-cmc that hard turns on Daze, note how Lavamancer clears the chump blockers away for a 7/7 on the ground, and note how much pressure you can exert on a life total (there's not a lot of time for the opponent to assemble paying for ward 4 and paying for a late game Daze).

    Some things you need to answer before you consider things like Saga:
    -what are you doing about Narset? This card is prevalent, and you can't go after it with DRC or Lavamancer or Red Blasts.
    -what are you doing when you get Surgical'd? That's a lot of enablers (12) that don't do much by themselves.
    -why are you rewarding opponents for playing Narset even harder with Ledger Shredder? You know all they have to do it cast 2 spells in your upkeep and you skip your draw step right? Same problems with Leovold, Hullyb, and Labyrinth. This is a lot of the legacy format doing this stuff.
    -you at least got on-color and dropped the outlandish cost of the mana base by roughly 2/3, so now it's time to play Otawara.

    Things that work with Saga:
    1-Relic/Furnace/Soul-Guide/Nihil
    2-Expedition Map
    3-Currency Converter

    Retro, Needle, [not-Nihil] Spellbomb are all obsolete. You can make a case for some of these SB, but Retro especially is a dead card. It is just so much worse than Currency Converter if you don't have thopter tribal synergies. Take that $25 you were going to blow on Retro and buy a playset of Currency Converter and don't look back.

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