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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #201

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Shadow spear is both a saga target and answers the chump problem.

    If your dress-downs are languishing in hand because you have tokens out then you're winning.

    E: Have you really liked converter that much? That was another card on my target list but I've had awful luck getting things delivered to my apartment I was waiting until I moved in July.

  2. #202
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Shadow spear is both a saga target and answers the chump problem.

    If your dress-downs are languishing in hand because you have tokens out then you're winning.

    E: Have you really liked converter that much? That was another card on my target list but I've had awful luck getting things delivered to my apartment I was waiting until I moved in July.
    The way this works out most often is you've got a standoff where your constructs can't really attack and the opponent can't make it past the construct blocks. You can't afford to wipe your dudes, so you just sit there drawing Dress Downs and increasingly irrelevant Dazes...then you lose b/c you took too many turns off. The next most common thing is taking turns off to make constructs into a hostile Dress Down cast by an opponent who had plenty of time to make land drops to kill Daze. The 2-2 split of Saga vs Dress Down keeps this stuff from occurring too often, and it also keeps Saga infrequent enough to allow you to Daze without losing ability to make constructs reliably (Saga as land #2 or 3 often fails to make both constructs).

    Shadowspear is a pretty all-in card & winmore since a StifleNought deck should already be winning if they resolve and protect a dude...if the dude dies, you don't really want to be topdecking Shadowspear any more than you want to be looking at in on the battlefield doing nothing. This is "bad card syndrome" where we start with a card that doesn't really work in the UG shell [Sailor's Bane] -> add some mana issues [Saga] -> add more bad topdecks [Saga targets] -> including Shadowspear to give trample to a Sailor's Bane you can't wield effectively. Compounding failures like this have to be avoided in tier 2 deckbuilding. Need to shift that focus away from what "I can do" [forward-deckbuilding, like modern] to "I need to address the problems presented by other decks, particularly Narset-types" [backwards-deckbuilding, how we make legacy decks].

    On Currency Converter, yes it's pretty outrageous. It's so stupid with Shark'nado and Timeless Dragon (but losing land drops on Saga isn't great in UW). Also EoT cracking Standstill to make them discard goes south real quick. It's also important to transmute card types in this format; it's pretty hard to answer Scroll of Fate and face-down Dreadnought, also hard to kill Currency Converter and a 2/2 black rogue token. You play crap like Retro and you're gonna lose everything to Dress Down, and then Ending hits Retro. Postboard Retro walks right into the Meltdown and Seeds you know everyone has...and all this is *if* Saga survives and you didn't topdeck the target.

  3. #203
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    As far as fairness goes, there's no point in having rules that player 2 gets to keep or mulligan an opening hand if they're just going to get LED/Echo'd out of it before ever getting a turn to use the hand they chose. So especially with Echo there is a game structure problem
    You could make the same point about AllSpells, Belcher, SI, TES, LED Dredge, BR Reanimator, Tin Fins, and other combos that can goldfish turn 1. Many players feel such mechanics make the game determined by the die roll, ending before they get a turn (or having all relevant mulligan decisions stripped of them, e.g. 4x Cabal Therapy/Grief/Unmask -> threat). Wizards has a consistent policy for it. Modern and up ban fast combos. In Legacy and Vintage they're allowed to exist, but we also get Turn 0 interaction and sideboards so Player 2 gets to do something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    whereas with UWR we're all sitting here looking at Timetwister and Mind Twist on the banlist and going "wtf wotc?"
    They have no money to make by unbanning old cards like Mind Twist, which supports my financial point. A number of older cards on the Legacy B/R list could be unbanned safely. But those cards would be unhealthy for Standard and Modern so they can't reprint them in new sets. Therefore, an unban of out-of-print low-circulation cards doesn't make them any money, it's only profitable for the secondary market, so there's no reason to disrupt the status quo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Your financial point holds up better with Wrenn, Oko, and Ragavan. All cards that were exceptionally easy to identify as needing to be banned (though Wrenn did mask the Oko problem while it was legal). The counterpoint would be that Breach, Valki, and Lurrus all got banned [for Valki, effectively banned] largely before paper profits.
    If you're talking about paper singles prices, that's the difference between Mythic and Rare. But Breach and Lurrus still had high demand. Prices weren't as high due to higher print frequency, but the demand was still there, so they still sold packs of the new set (where WOTC makes profit) as much as a rare could. Once they had sold enough boosters, they could afford to ban.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Not competitive, just lower winrate than Narset x4 downticking to find 1x Day's or LED/Echo. You would also be disfavored in the MindTwister mirror; you're just playing harder into their Plow/Ending or Chalice.
    ^This is the kind of nonsense Blade players do, telling themselves adding SDT/CB or Hymn or Oko or Uro or Ragavan or DHA, diluted by their bad cards (SFM/equip), is progress.
    What makes Dreadstill vs Landstill any different (not just diluted by bad cards)? As a Landstill but not Dreadstill player, it seems the same to me. You add a fast clock and tempo tools that helps vs combo and Delver, but it's a vulnerable 2-card combo that makes you weaker to Plow/Ending and Chalice. Why would the effect on UWR MindTwister be worse? Why is Landstill not hurt as much by it?

    Conversely, why wouldn't some other non-Standstill draw engine complement Dreadnought as well? I think that's the driving question behind this entire Dressnought thread.

  4. #204

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    They have no money to make by unbanning old cards like Mind Twist, which supports my financial point. A number of older cards on the Legacy B/R list could be unbanned safely. But those cards would be unhealthy for Standard and Modern so they can't reprint them in new sets. Therefore, an unban of out-of-print low-circulation cards doesn't make them any money, it's only profitable for the secondary market, so there's no reason to disrupt the status quo.
    Easy fix. Secret Lair: Legacy Unbanned and pair that release alongside the unbanning of those cards so that the price of those cards never gets a chance to spike due to the unban announcement.

    There would still be collectable value for the old bordered originals so no one loses in that scenario.

    Back to topic,

    I really think

    4 Uro
    4 Dreadnought
    2 Sailor's Bane
    4 Dress Down
    4 Slip Out the Back
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    4 Wasteland

    seems like a very very juicy shell for this list.

  5. #205
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    I really think

    4 Uro
    4 Dreadnought
    2 Sailor's Bane
    4 Dress Down
    4 Slip Out the Back
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    4 Wasteland

    seems like a very very juicy shell for this list.
    Sailors' Bane could be good in any other colors, but UG will have the fewest instants and sorceries. Seems better in UR (Bolt, REB, EI) or UW (StP, Ending) but too slow in UG.

    Does Slip work with the rules? Yes. But 12 enablers + 4 Dreadnought is overkill. 8-9 enablers should be enough. Remember that Uro doesn't NEED an enabler, he works on his own too. Slip can remove a blocker, but it's not real removal like StP, so most of the time it's card disadvantage.

    You could cut Dress Down and replace with Slip (better with Uro). But Dress Down is better at staying even on cards and disrupting opponents.

    You could start with this shell

    //Lands: 20
    4 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Forest
    1 Otawara, Soaring City

    //Creatures: 8
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    //Spells: 16
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle

    //Enchantments: 5
    3 Dress Down
    2 Sylvan Library

    //Artifacts: 1
    1 Scroll of Fate

    That leaves about 10 flex slots.

    What to do with those slots? You could play 4 Slip 4 Daze 2 Sailor's Bane. But that doesn't help the deck's weaknesses. You need answers for:
    1) Narset, Parter of Veils (Otawara only)
    2) creatures (no removal)
    3) Ensnaring Bridge (Otawara only)
    4) Surgical Extraction on Dreadnought (not many backup threats, too many dead enablers)
    5) Chalice of the Void at 1 (Otawara or go over the top with Uro & Scroll)
    6) Marit Lage for bigger 2-card threat (Stifle or Otawara)

    In the core, there's not much to deal with those threats (1 Otawara is mandatory or it's even worse). Playing Slip and Daze doesn't help enough with those problems.

    Some cards to consider:
    Force of Negation
    Boseiju, Who Endures
    Brazen Borrower
    Endurance
    Karn, the Great Creator
    Stubborn Denial
    Subtlety
    Run Afoul (in SB)

    It's tough. White and red have better answers.

    You could play a small Saga package (2 Urza's Saga + 1 Currency Converter + 1 Phyrexian Furnace) but those don't really address the weaknesses either.

    Too bad there are no 1 mana green instant fight spells. Ram Through, Titanic Brawl, Wing Puncture, and Prizefight are close but not quite enough. Ram Through at least lets you respond to removal (or countered Stifle) by killing their creature & dealing opponent 8-10 damage, but requires having 1G up all the time. It's easier to protect Dreadnought with Vision Charm or Stubborn Denial so far.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-07-2022 at 01:18 AM.

  6. #206

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    They have no money to make by unbanning old cards like Mind Twist, which supports my financial point. A number of older cards on the Legacy B/R list could be unbanned safely. But those cards would be unhealthy for Standard and Modern so they can't reprint them in new sets. Therefore, an unban of out-of-print low-circulation cards doesn't make them any money, it's only profitable for the secondary market, so there's no reason to disrupt the status quo.
    I share in your cynicism to a degree but I also think they don't unban certain cards (e.g. Earthcraft, Mindtwist, Frantic Search, Mind Twist, Mind's Desire) because they will only serve to further degenerate playstyles that lead to non-games. The cost-benefit analysis is nothing / lose insofar as the unban will either add nothing to the format, or improve/create degenerate decks that they don't even want being good in the first place. Why take a risk on something if the best case scenario is nothing changes?

  7. #207

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I just can't imagine pinning for mind twist. Even if it was fine, who cares.

  8. #208

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Easy fix. Secret Lair: Legacy Unbanned and pair that release alongside the unbanning of those cards so that the price of those cards never gets a chance to spike due to the unban announcement.

    There would still be collectable value for the old bordered originals so no one loses in that scenario.

    Back to topic,

    I really think

    4 Uro
    4 Dreadnought
    2 Sailor's Bane
    4 Dress Down
    4 Slip Out the Back
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    4 Wasteland

    seems like a very very juicy shell for this list.
    I am still not sold on Slip Out the Back

    4 Uro
    4 Dreadnought
    2 Sailor's Bane
    4 Endurence
    4 Ledger Shredder

    4 Dress Down
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Consider!?
    Repudiate // Replicate?

    Consider puts cards int the yard which is what Uro and Bane want, Repudiate is green and tricksy which is what Dreadnought and Endurence want.

  9. #209
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I am still not sold on Slip Out the Back

    4 Uro
    4 Dreadnought
    2 Sailor's Bane
    4 Endurence
    4 Ledger Shredder

    4 Dress Down
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Consider!?
    Repudiate // Replicate?

    Consider puts cards int the yard which is what Uro and Bane want, Repudiate is green and tricksy which is what Dreadnought and Endurence want.
    Ledger Shredder's floor is really bad. Think about what happens when you topdeck it. Or when opponent has Narset out and you're forced to draw 0 discard 1 (not a "may" ability). It's an unnecessary risk when the deck already has access to better threats and better draw.

    In UG Sylvan Library is an amazing draw engine with Uro, and Sylvan supports Endurance better. Fox will say to just play Standstill, but if you're not on Standstill then Sylvan should be the next choice.

    Repudiate is too expensive for Legacy. You could just play Trickbind without losing to Daze and Fluster, but you'll notice Trickbind sees 0 Legacy play because 2-mana Stifle is not good enough. The Replicate mode is win-more and doesn't work on Uro. If you already have 1 Dreadnought, Replicate only works when you're already winning (opponent let you untap with fat creature) and fails badly when you're not (StP in response, Ensnaring Bridge, can't make Dreadnought yet, etc).

    See my above post. I made a case for why the remaining slots should help when the main plan doesn't work, not doubling down on more of the same thing or win-more.

    Bane's appealing. But you can enable Bane a lot more easily in Red.
    e.g.

    //Creatures: 10
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2 Sailors' Bane

    //Spells: 26
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Daze
    3 Expressive Iteration

    //Enchantments: 2
    2 Dress Down

    //Artifacts: 2
    1 Currency Converter
    1 Scroll of Fate

    //Lands: 20
    2 Urza's Saga
    3 Wasteland
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Island
    1 Mountain
    1 Otawara, Soaring City


    A deck like that fills up on instants and sorceries much faster without needing to run bad enablers. There are more spells you can cast proactively. DRC and Currency Converter do the role of Consider while also being a threat.

    If you cut the Saga stuff, then maybe:
    -2 Saga
    +1 Wasteland
    -1 Currency Converter
    -1 other card
    +2 Murktide Regent
    Last edited by FTW; 06-07-2022 at 06:11 PM.

  10. #210

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I just can't imagine pinning for mind twist. Even if it was fine, who cares.
    Having a hymn that is better in non blue archetypes than blue snap caster shells is good for the format. Curses and Nic Fit would really get a shot in an arm since they can’t afford bad top decks or an early BB cost spell. The play patterns they encourage are both more interesting and different than (generic CA engine) + (7 Fows + 7 blasts +7 unconditional removal) imo. Blue soup pile would usually prefer hymn.

    I’m not sure it is playable in pox, but attrition archetypes need all the help they can get against the fire bullshit.

    Complaining about mind twist and frantic search when FIRE designs like doomsday thoracle or narset days undoing are legal, more powerful, and more annoying is silly.

  11. #211

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Having a hymn that is better in non blue archetypes than blue snap caster shells is good for the format. Curses and Nic Fit would really get a shot in an arm since they can’t afford bad top decks or an early BB cost spell. The play patterns they encourage are both more interesting and different than (generic CA engine) + (7 Fows + 7 blasts +7 unconditional removal) imo. Blue soup pile would usually prefer hymn.

    I’m not sure it is playable in pox, but attrition archetypes need all the help they can get against the fire bullshit.

    Complaining about mind twist and frantic search when FIRE designs like doomsday thoracle or narset days undoing are legal, more powerful, and more annoying is silly.
    I have a suspicion MH3 will be printing some busted Black and Green cards much the same way MH2 made UR tempo a real archetype in Modern. Maybe they'll print a 2 CMC creature that unearths on attack. What could possibly go wrong?

  12. #212

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    I have a suspicion MH3 will be printing some busted Black and Green cards much the same way MH2 made UR tempo a real archetype in Modern. Maybe they'll print a 2 CMC creature that unearths on attack. What could possibly go wrong?
    They were not lacking on insane GB cards


    Grist
    Grief
    Endurance
    Tourak, Dread Cantor


    Whenever wotc prints delve cards they are out of line. Did you forget MH1 had hogaak?

  13. #213

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Having a hymn that is better in non blue archetypes than blue snap caster shells is good for the format. Curses and Nic Fit would really get a shot in an arm since they can’t afford bad top decks or an early BB cost spell.
    Citations needed
    Because I don't see format health as the status of [your pet deck].

  14. #214

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Citations needed
    Because I don't see format health as the status of [your pet deck].
    1. Format health is generally dependent on archetype, gameplay, and colour diversity.
    2. Discard/Attrition based control is not a viable archetype currently.
    3. Mind twist for 2 or 3 is both different and more interesting to play against than current 3 or 4 drops like 3feri, karn, or uro.
    4. Fair non-blue decks are underrepresented in legacy since blue cards like brainstorm and force of Will are better than half the banlist.
    5. Mind twist would only go in, and improve, fair non-blue attrition/discard decks.
    6. Mind twist will improve 2, 3, & 4.
    7. Ergo -> mind twist will improve format health.



    1. Format health is generally dependent on archetype, gameplay, and colour diversity.
    2. Aggro is underrepresented in legacy since it can’t beat combo.
    3. Franctic Search is both different and more interesting to play against than current combo pieces like doomsday & show and tell.
    4. Fair non-blue decks are underrepresented in legacy since most viable combo decks are inherently good against them.
    5. High Tide is a combo deck that is very good against counters but bad against aggro or hate pieces.
    6. Frantic Search will improve high tide
    7. Frantic Search unban will improve 2, 3, 4
    8. ergo -> frantic search will improve format health.

  15. #215

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    They were not lacking on insane GB cards


    Grist
    Grief
    Endurance
    Tourak, Dread Cantor


    Whenever wotc prints delve cards they are out of line. Did you forget MH1 had hogaak?
    I was thinking they are going to beef up The Rock archetype next. Some time of value creatures/spells that will slot in.

    Yeah...Delve...why do they keep printing that type of card. I guess I shouldn't complain too much since they seemed to have moved on to super Delve with that turtle.

  16. #216

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I'd imagine Mindtwist, if played at all, would be played by Tomb / Ritual decks. I don't see it making fair non-blue any more playable.

  17. #217

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    I'd imagine Mindtwist, if played at all, would be played by Tomb / Ritual decks. I don't see it making fair non-blue any more playable.
    It is going to go in a black big mana shell, since it is a black card that needs ramp. Blue decks inherently need something more efficient due to how xerox works.

    I think the disagreement is on what consitutes combo. Any true combo deck would rather play thoughtseize and ad nauseum than this card. The best black big mana shells would be tomb/ritual, cabal therapy/veteran explorer, and maybe utopia sprawl/Serra’s sanctum. I consider curses/karn pox/nic-fit/enchantress fair non-blue but I can see how people would disagree.

  18. #218

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    1. Format health is generally dependent on archetype, gameplay, and colour diversity.
    2. Discard/Attrition based control is not a viable archetype currently.
    3. Mind twist for 2 or 3 is both different and more interesting to play against than current 3 or 4 drops like 3feri, karn, or uro.
    4. Fair non-blue decks are underrepresented in legacy since blue cards like brainstorm and force of Will are better than half the banlist.
    5. Mind twist would only go in, and improve, fair non-blue attrition/discard decks.
    6. Mind twist will improve 2, 3, & 4.
    7. Ergo -> mind twist will improve format health.



    1. Format health is generally dependent on archetype, gameplay, and colour diversity.
    2. Aggro is underrepresented in legacy since it can’t beat combo.
    3. Franctic Search is both different and more interesting to play against than current combo pieces like doomsday & show and tell.
    4. Fair non-blue decks are underrepresented in legacy since most viable combo decks are inherently good against them.
    5. High Tide is a combo deck that is very good against counters but bad against aggro or hate pieces.
    6. Frantic Search will improve high tide
    7. Frantic Search unban will improve 2, 3, 4
    8. ergo -> frantic search will improve format health.
    Nice logical fallacies, nerd.

  19. #219

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Nice logical fallacies, nerd.
    Which ones and where?

  20. #220
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Nice logical fallacies, nerd.
    Nice discussion about Dressnought.

    The previous B/R talk at least loosely related to Dressnought: Dreadnought needs a way to fight UWR HullDay as long as it's legal. Why is it realistic to expect HullDay to stay legal while Mind Twist and Timetwister stay banned? Is HullDay (aka MindTwister) is viable with Dreadnought? That's why it came up. It had to do with Dreadnought running cards like Phyrexian Furnace and Ashiok to fight those decks. Now this is just about Mind Twist in other decks.

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