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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #121

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Have really been loving adding Dressnought to UR Delver…

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    4 Wasteland
    3 Dreadnought
    4 Ragavan
    4 DRC
    4 Murktide
    2 Bauble
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Expressive
    4 FoW
    3 Daze
    2 Spikefield
    14 Fetch/Blue Lands

    Feels bad adding a 12/12 trampler to an already broken deck.

  2. #122
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    If you have a Ragavan in play that can't attack, you could also have a *full* hand of 3 other Ragavan and Dreadnoughts. These cards are not played together for this reason. Can't create decks with full hands that can't do anything - this source of variance is eliminated by responsible deckbuilding.

    It's similar to how DHA was never played with Standstill, b/c the mechanics don't play well together.

  3. #123

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I suppose they could be played as 3 ofs. DRC helps us with filtering draws too. Its similar to Brainstorm but in Red (comparable to Spyro in Modern) that allows us to avoid dead cards.

  4. #124
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    I suppose they could be played as 3 ofs. DRC helps us with filtering draws too. Its similar to Brainstorm but in Red (comparable to Spyro in Modern) that allows us to avoid dead cards.
    Yes DRC is an ideal card for UR Dreadstill, where we play 2x Saga and have option for 1-card delirium (enchant land finds artifact creature). You also get to go DRC into Standstill -> trigger to mill towards land drop #3...and unlike Delver, it is better with enchantments and does not suffer from diminishing returns if played at 2 and 3 copies (it's good all game).

    What your deck has is the Lotus Petal exploit which breaks 1 land per turn rule: Ragavan. It is this rule break that allows Expressive Iteration to find value [put land in exile and have land drop open] a full turn sooner than it should. This rule break is the key to the whole Daze and Wasteland without going down on mana exploit as well. Given that the best combo deck in legacy is Volc -> Ragavan -> Daze, why are you only on 3 Daze...and what exactly is Dreadnought doing here? Where is any interaction, particularly non-combat - where is Bolt? At some point you have to be able to not autolose to E-Bridge.

    Why are you playing normal legacy with improperly supported 12/12s? Why are you presenting them at sorcery speed into the Prismatic Ending & Plow meta? While it's fun to randomly dumpster DDFT simply by following Dreadnought's gameplan, it's not like UR Delver isn't already one of DDFT's worst matchups.

  5. #125
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Why Bauble? Bauble is such a bad card. UR Delver runs it only to increase the number of card types available for Delirium. If you have Phyrexian Dreadnought and Dress Down, you already have self-sacrificing Artifacts and Enchantments.

  6. #126

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Yeah, youre right. Ragavan was just too damn good not to splash for, but with it gone, red is no longer a must play. Bauble and DRC arent good enough.

    Post Ragavan ban, I think the optimal Dressnought threat base is…
    4 Dreadnought
    3 Uro
    Maybe 2-3 Murktide

    Each of those threats need different tools to answer effectively.

    Playing 10+ threats each capable of singlehandedly winning the game if left unchecked for a single turn or two seems really solid paired with free counters and the disruption that Dress Down, Stifle and Wasteland provide.

    Uro and Dreadnought already synergize so well together so I see those as staples and the natural threats to build any list around.

  7. #127
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Yeah, youre right. Ragavan was just too damn good not to splash for, but with it gone, red is no longer a must play. Bauble and DRC arent good enough.

    Post Ragavan ban, I think the optimal Dressnought threat base is…
    4 Dreadnought
    3 Uro
    Maybe 2-3 Murktide

    Each of those threats need different tools to answer effectively.

    Playing 10+ threats each capable of singlehandedly winning the game if left unchecked for a single turn or two seems really solid paired with free counters and the disruption that Dress Down, Stifle and Wasteland provide.

    Uro and Dreadnought already synergize so well together so I see those as staples and the natural threats to build any list around.
    That Ragavan ban saved you from a horrible deckbuidling error of Nought with Ragavan. That anti-combo is up there with DHA with Standstill.

    You do not have adequate GY to play Murktide and Uro in the same deck. This theory doesn't need to be tested to understand.

    Your way forward is:
    1- playing worse Uro midrange, with bad matchup vs actual Uro midrange
    2- playing UR with DRC that you definitely are not dropping and Murktide...even though Dreadstill is the better call.

  8. #128
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    DRC still seems great. Why cut? You don't automatically need Bauble with DRC. Delver runs them together to get card type Artifact. Your deck already has card types Artifact and Enchantment, so DRC does not need Bauble.

    Uro + Murktide is a nonbo. Blue decks usually pick between one of the two, not both.

  9. #129

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    This deck has been a lot better since the Ragavan ban.

    Stifle has gotten so much better without that stupid monkey running around.

    I'm having the best luck with the below list...

    3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    4 Ponder
    3 Prismatic Ending
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Stifle
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Dress Down
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Snow-Covered Forest
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    3 Tropical Island
    1 Tundra
    4 Wasteland
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Esper Sentinel
    1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
    1 Boseiju, Who Endures

    Sideboard:
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Counterbalance
    2 Meddling Mage
    1 Narset, Parter of Veils
    1 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    3 Torpor Orb
    2 Veil of Summer
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Blue Elemental Blast

    I'm not sure about the channel lands (brand new additions) and the sideboard is always changing but the rest of the list is locked in. Esper Sentinel has been great at drawing removal clearing the way for the beaters.

  10. #130
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    You are not allowed to play 1cmc interaction on the least secure color. You're going to murder yourself on enemy Wasteland by pathologically fetching out white duals, especially in the early game. Huge color identity crisis, and all 8 Fetchlandust be pointed at a basic Plains, full stop.

    You are literally trying to resolve 10 white spells off a single Tundra and a nonbasic white channel land.

  11. #131

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You are not allowed to play 1cmc interaction on the least secure color. You're going to murder yourself on enemy Wasteland by pathologically fetching out white duals, especially in the early game. Huge color identity crisis, and all 8 Fetchlandust be pointed at a basic Plains, full stop.

    You are literally trying to resolve 10 white spells off a single Tundra and a nonbasic white channel land.
    Fair point. Havent run into that yet but I can see how my recent cut of the basic plains to try Eiganjo might be a mistake.

    Usually its this deck thats wasting opponents manabases, many legacy decks dont even bother with basic lands.

  12. #132

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Is this the Dreadnought mega thread?
    I tried this last week and went 3-1, I'm a little hindered by card availability, so shocks over duals and neither of the two murktides I wanted

    4 phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 uro
    4 endurance
    2 wavesifter

    4 stifle
    4 brainstorm
    4 ponder
    3 daze
    4 force of will
    2 force of negation
    1 lazotep plating

    4 dress down

    1 pithing needle
    1 chromatic star

    4 breeding pool
    3 wasteland
    4 urzas saga
    4 blue fetches
    4 islands

    //Side
    4 leyline of the Void
    4 leyline of sanctity
    2 gilded Drake
    2 shark typhoon
    1 pithing needle
    1 brittle effigy
    1 commandeer

  13. #133
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    https://youtu.be/pEHb1dVe98w

    Another video to reinforce this concept of StifleNought's problems, and how much of the blame falls on Ponder and "protecting" sorcery speed deployments with Daze. We also see why Dreadnought is played exclusively/near exclusively on 2c.

  14. #134
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    https://youtu.be/pEHb1dVe98w

    Another video to reinforce this concept of StifleNought's problems, and how much of the blame falls on Ponder and "protecting" sorcery speed deployments with Daze. We also see why Dreadnought is played exclusively/near exclusively on 2c.
    I kind of get what your arguments are through tangential means, but watching the video of a cherry picked replay of a match with a opponent making numerous suboptimal plays doesn't really back up the piling on of evidence against the Grixis list your tone conveys. At the end even when asked if it's so trash, why did it top8 and get second place in short order and you just seem to shrug it off as getting lucky. You go on to concede, okay sure maybe it has a good matchup against UR Delver; then failing to acknowledge that 3/8 of the top8 were UR Delver. The recent showcase was 5/8 UR Delver.

    If the argument is framed which is the better match versus each other, UW or UBR Stiflenaught, that seems a different discussion of which is better versus the meta.

    I don't wholly disagree with all of your points made, but the record so far doesn't support the absolutist hypothesis you present.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    If the argument is framed which is the better match versus each other, UW or UBR Stiflenaught, that seems a different discussion of which is better versus the meta.
    Strong point here. Fox's videos show why Stiflenought is inferior to Dreadstill in the pseudo-mirror, how Dreadstill will eventually win on mana and cards, but they don't convincingly settle which is better against the meta. Beating UR Delver is big. Fox may be right - that Dreadstill is better overall and favored in this meta - but the videos don't show it.

    2nd place Challenge List: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...jdadd_nd_place
    Top 8 is 3 UR Delvers, Infect, Depths, Elves, and Red Prison. The rest of the event has a lot of combo and Delver. Are those good matches for Stiflenought? Few Swords to Plowshares decks.

  16. #136
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I kind of get what your arguments are through tangential means, but watching the video of a cherry picked replay of a match with a opponent making numerous suboptimal plays doesn't really back up the piling on of evidence against the Grixis list your tone conveys. At the end even when asked if it's so trash, why did it top8 and get second place in short order and you just seem to shrug it off as getting lucky. You go on to concede, okay sure maybe it has a good matchup against UR Delver; then failing to acknowledge that 3/8 of the top8 were UR Delver. The recent showcase was 5/8 UR Delver.

    If the argument is framed which is the better match versus each other, UW or UBR Stiflenaught, that seems a different discussion of which is better versus the meta.

    I don't wholly disagree with all of your points made, but the record so far doesn't support the absolutist hypothesis you present.
    The match is not cherry picked, it is however an exceedingly rare mirror. On the channel you can find the other two matches where StifleNought gets dismantled. It's a predictable matchup where they can only win by my deck having mana issues, which is unlikely to happen by the odds. Consider also that the StifleNought manabase is dual land infested, making them much more likely to lose the Waste/Stifle subgame.

    The generic approach to playing against StifleNought is simple b/c the only real risk is dying via combat from summoning sick dudes. About the only decks in legacy that can't hang with StifleNought are Post combo, GY & spell combo, daze-using combo, incompetent Depths-users (aggro 20/20 into lose the game to interaction followed by predictable death to own mana), and Delver. There are some super high variance coin flips vs Elves and Chalice. Horrid matchups vs DnT, Uro midrange, UWR, Grixis, and basically anything fair (having Ending/Plow or comparable removal focus). StifleNought carries with it a very poor matchup vs the majority of meta deck archetypes. The one thing StifleNought has going for it is that positive Delver matchup while the rest of the inbred online legacy scene apparently can't figure out how to not die to MurkGoyf. StifleNought is a deck with a low ceiling, lacking the tools to turn skill into win %...the only way you do well with it is luck, particularly in pairings. You have to entirely avoid Plow/Ending or get even luckier and hit Plow/Ending in a match where they manage to somehow die to the mana denial.

    In terms of this specific opponent's play, they demonstrated a clear lack of understanding of both strategy and tactics. Their performance gets a snapshot rating of incompetent [lowest] for this match. Doesn't much matter though, they were still going to lose b/c the only wincon they could pursue is combat damage. If I sit back and hit land drops, the odds dictate they aren't likely to win. The gameplan has to be more complex than "I hope I only roll combo and Delver" to compete in this format.

    Edit: @FTW it's pretty hard to lose to UR Delver on Dreadstill. We don't have a lot of players for stats but Rood is running 12-1 last I checked and Pip is 3-1. We were running around 75-80%% winrate vs Oko/DRC Delver, and were still winning over 50% vs Ragavan Delver. Delver is the classic easy matchup for Dreadstill, with the exception of legalized cheating with Probe/Therapy by Grixis Delver. So you have easily beats Delver + no card I'd rather cast into Plow/Ending than Standstill. Dreadstill is superior to StifleNought in cost, construction, position, longevity, and in the mirror. The only thing StifleNought has going for it is linear play patterns [low skill requirement] and being a reasonable response to overwhelming combo + absent removal eras (DTT Omni, Valki Cannon, Breach).

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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I'm comfortable conceding the point that the UW Dreadnaught list beats the Grixis Dreadnaught list. One plays Plows and the other plays Bolts. In a room full of 12/12s it's not really a contest. But I've yet to be in that room. I'm not entirely confidant such a room exists. As you said, it's a rare mirror.

    My question to you was, is there a more than dismissive explantation you can give for the running high finishes of the Grixis list? While no doubt variance plays a role in all finishes, it doesn't support the results singularly.

    Dreadnaught is definitely a meta outlier, it isn't going to get the sideboard attention of Kappa 8cast or whatever, so if the meta remains soft to whatever the Grixis pile is doing, it doesn't seem to need to have all the game against the matchups that aren't present.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    About the only decks in legacy that can't hang with StifleNought are Post combo, GY & spell combo, daze-using combo, incompetent Depths-users (aggro 20/20 into lose the game to interaction followed by predictable death to own mana), and Delver. There are some super high variance coin flips vs Elves and Chalice. Horrid matchups vs DnT, Uro midrange, UWR, Grixis, and basically anything fair (having Ending/Plow or comparable removal focus). StifleNought carries with it a very poor matchup vs the majority of meta deck archetypes. The one thing StifleNought has going for it is that positive Delver matchup while the rest of the inbred online legacy scene apparently can't figure out how to not die to MurkGoyf. StifleNought is a deck with a low ceiling, lacking the tools to turn skill into win %...the only way you do well with it is luck, particularly in pairings. You have to entirely avoid Plow/Ending or get even luckier and hit Plow/Ending in a match where they manage to somehow die to the mana denial.
    Well that really explains the 2nd place finish. The field was full of UR Delver and combo, with very little fair midrange and fair removal. Fast Stiflenought seems favorable against combo, while there were very few decks able to punish the 2-for-1. It is a linear plan that could fall apart easily... but no one there is metagaming against Stiflenought, they're focused on bigger fish.

    The Grixis player probably also benefited from opponents misjudging the deck. The opening play patterns don't make it obvious you're facing Stiflenought. Piproberts missed it in G1. It could be Delver, combo, Grixis Phoenix, or a 4c Iteration deck. That could lead a Depths player to walk into mana denial (because TurboLage is very strong against other fair blue) or not save answers for Dreadnought.

  19. #139
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    My question to you was, is there a more than dismissive explantation you can give for the running high finishes of the Grixis list? While no doubt variance plays a role in all finishes, it doesn't support the results singularly.
    There is a card in Delver decks whose true name is Expressive Shiteration. This card is garbage against enemy Wasteland/Stifle/Daze. Add Shame Island (Sanctuary) on top of that bad card, and add that Shame Island keeps basic Mountain out of Delver lists. It's pretty easy to see how effortless it is for the Grixis StifleNought to farm Delver.

    So why is there so much of this meme UR Delver deck to farm is the real question. Like I'm willing to give the format a pass when when they say something like "I can't beat Thassa trigger ever" even though it's a hilariously easy win for Dreadnought decks...but when we're talking about a slightly power crept Tarmogoyf (Murktide), I have a lot less respect for people saying "UR Delver is overpowered." Just zero sympathy over here. Figure it out, it's just a Goyf...but like sure, I'm down to ban the problem: Daze.

    The Delver spam in this challenge just isn't representative. You can't build like StifleNought like this and not get called on it by removal spammers. The reason I'm dismissive is that almost all I see in non-league legacy is removal-based. StifleNought is like $4k in duals to end up with a knowably uncompetitive endpoint as you get farmed by Plow/Ending-types without any hope of a different outcome.
    ---
    @FTW on metagaming vs bigger fish it can't be that hard to figure out how to play Plow & Ending to massacre Delver.

    On opponent's getting tricked, every single land played in legacy should be weighed against enemy Stifle, turbo Moon, and Wasteland. If people are playing legacy correctly, they shouldn't be getting "got" by StifleNought and their Daze.

    The problem with farming incompetence is that it doesn't represent real win % share. Just watch the approach in the replays where Pip and I are just sitting back playing lands. It's not particularly hard to emulate that strategy.

  20. #140

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Wait hold up, there were 9 STP decks in that top 32 and only 8 delver decks.

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