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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #361

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Don't need to.
    You should.
    Kinda the same way I didn't need to play your deck against ANT to know not to cut Dress Down and Nought while bringing in 1cmc cards you kept tapping yourself out of.
    Oh Fox, you messy bitch.
    There's nothing wrong with learning by experience, but learning by wisdom is a better model.
    Oh, and what's it called when you never learn at all because:
    We're talking about a card that is smaller than MurkGoyf,
    Nope!
    slower than MurkGoyf,
    Wrong!
    and down keyword flying vs MurkGoyf.
    And up Ward. Weird how you're quick to remind us how good spot removal is and yet when when provided an answer to that problem you just plug your ears.
    At a baseline you have to either be getting on board faster than MurkGoyf or have other cards to answer MurkGoyf; otherwise you have failed the Goyf test.
    For Murktide to be fast, it can't be an 8/8. If it's an 8/8 then it's significantly slower than Bane. If it's not an 8/8 it's smaller than Bane and Dreadnought. If it's not a 7/7 (and most aren't. They're usually 6/6s, since 3 spells + 3 lands is the sweet spot to a t3 Murktide + protection) then Uro can also trade with it.

    Play with the card and come back to me. Or don't. Just fuck off, honestly.
    Last edited by FourDogsinaHorseSuit; 09-28-2022 at 09:17 AM.

  2. #362
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    So 1 in 5 cards in your deck are not going to help you power out a Bane (the Dreadnought module). You're also pathologically going to be turning off Stifle with Ponder on 1, EoT Dress Down on 2, and then Iteration or Uro.

    This makes you slower in the Goyf war, and slower is also smaller. So before you ever play a single game you know that you need to be able to kill MurkGoyf.

    While adding 1 drops like DRC is progress, and having access to SB REBs is also progress...having slots for DRC and Uro and Nought and Bane really carves into your ability to fit Brazen - which feeds back into the whole problem of playing from behind vs MurkGoyf (particularly in game 1).

    You also have the anti-combo of a deck that is pressured into cycling Dress Down (thanks to drawing extra copies or getting blackmailed by Iteration into spamming it). Can't stress this enough: Dress Down strips ward.

    Just because a 12/12 is bigger than the Delver deck, it does not mean their life total is the one that needs to be defended. When you start pushing up the mana curve, without resistance to Wasteland, you're not the one on offense. If MurkGoyf was still actual Tarmogoyf, you would have covered this flaw just by having Uro...but the inability of Uro to interact by blocking and only effectively shrinking MurkGoyf to a 5/8 im a race is significant enough to throw out the old heuristic of Uro invalidates Goyf.

    This is where a lot of decks mess up in legacy; they think too much about what their deck can do...but they forget that what they could do doesn't matter if a MurkGoyf is killing them before they can do their thing. This is why there is so much complaining about MurkGoyf - people are not willing to/don't like having to stop everything they're doing to run slots of choosing not to lose to Goyf.

    When it comes to StifleNought vs Delver, your wincon is mostly exposing their terrible deck structure with Stifle and Wasteland, which makes the play pattern of sandbagging land drops for Iteration and having an ETB tapped Island go horribly wrong. Something you will want to avoid is transitioning from that advantage point into "you can get back in the game by making an 8/8 to my 7/7".

    If you can't threaten to close the door, it really doesn't matter if your deck has big dudes vs an opponent who can ignore the battlefield race and divert all their resources into countering your next topdecks. This is a predictable endgame you don't have to gift your Delver opponent. Make them earn the endgame where they have the luxury of ignoring the battlefield race.

  3. #363

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Hey Fox:
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Just fuck off, honestly.

  4. #364

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Hey Fox:
    Thank you

  5. #365
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    lol, Fox going off the deep end. (building with Mine Collapse and Lavamancer for that imaginary future meta; durdling Saga into suicide-Dreadnought lines for that sweet sweet going-down-a-card-to-flip-my-DRC, kitchen-table style. Super.)

    @FTW:
    That last list looks pretty good to me. Couple of considerations:
    - I would probably still run MTR over Bane in a deck that's a little bit light on removal to get rid of chump blockers. Maxtortion's RUG builds (with and w/o Dreadnoughts) seem to suggest that Uro & Murky in the same deck works just fine.
    - Fluster over FoN in the main has always felt correct to me in Tempo Dreadnought
    - 1st Scroll of Fate over 4th Dress Down is an idea (also a decent hedge vs. Chalice)
    - 5x GY hate in the side seems excessive, especially for a deck that already hoses combo with 8-9 free counters and turn-2 12/12s. I would a) definitely turn Return to Nature into Ancient Grudge and b) consider swapping out Relic for some anti-blue-pile tech (Minsc & Boo; Life/Loam; or just Carpet or another blast)
    - Keep the Ashiok, that card is awesome.
    Good points. Forcing Bane is not worth it.

    Murktide + Uro together seems greedy and easy to attack with GY hate, so I'm starting on 2 Murktide like the Grixis decks. At least with Uro you can cheat it out vs grave hate. That avoids too much exposure to Leyline of the Void (in a deck with almost 0 enchantment kill) or other attempts to grind away at graveyard size (Relic, Hearse, Endurance).

    Fluster seems better in other tempo shells. But a deck with Uro and EI and Ponder will tap out a lot. FoN main seems better with Fluster side. I see the Fluster in Maxtortion's list, but it feels awkward holding open Fluster with so many tap-out lines. The 5th Force helps G1 against Chalice @ 1 (without Brazen Boi, there are no answers in the main).

    I notice DRC is not in most tempo Dreadnought lists. But it is such a strong card to have in URx tempo. It does so many things: powerful 1 drop attacker, graveyard filling (Uro & Murktide), card selection (filters around Dreadnought combo depending on when you want it). It doesn't even need Bauble due to suicidal artifacts and enchantments already in the deck.


    //Creatures: 14
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    2 Murktide Regent

    //Spells: 23
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Expressive Iteration
    1 Force of Negation

    //Enchantments: 3
    3 Dress Down

    //Artifact: 1
    1 Scroll of Fate

    //Lands: 19
    3 Wasteland
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Island

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Veil of Summer
    1 Maddening Hex
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Powder Keg
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Return to Nature
    1 Ashiok, Dream Render
    2 Surgical Extraction


    I chose Return to Nature in part to have answers to enchantments. Grudge misses that. Maybe the cut is Relic then.

    Blasts, Fluster, Veil and Maddening Hex should all be good against blue piles. I made space for creature removal vs Elves and D&T.

    The best Bane deck is probably a UR tempo shell. Lavamancer seems bad - better in controlling UR Dreadstill than in aggressive UR tempo. Instead of turning sideways to remove a blocker, you could just play another big threat (4x Murktide Regent) and turn that sideways. UR tempo would rather have more standalone threats than support creatures. Murktide has no anti-synergy with Bane. You can run both. Anyway, that is all off topic.

  6. #366
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Hey Fox:
    You are slower at deploying your 7/7 than Delver is at deploying their 8/8. How did you magically start winning the race and force them into chumping?

    Explain how playing 12/60 cards of Dreadnought module is leading to powering out 7/7s that are not sped up by said Dreadnought module. Explain how the opponent can't just pay for ward that late in the game. Explain how stripping your own ward with Dress Down is a combo.

    I think so much of your thought process is comes from drawing false parallels to Kappa Cannoneer's ward 4 (which cones out as early as turn 2 or 3) and another false parallel between the experience of Uro midrange (a 4x Plow/4x Ending deck) vs Murktide.

    We saw it again as you explained your matchup vs Goblins where you were talking about Stifle'ing their Lackey and then also (despite burning your enablers) being able to make big dudes and reverse the advantage bar. It didn't stop there either, your next stuff was about having no green count and adding Endurance.

    All I see is someone at a chess board drawing up a strategy predicated upon moving their queen twice before passing priority.

  7. #367

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You are slower at deploying your 7/7 than Delver is at deploying their 8/8. How did you magically start winning the race and force them into chumping?

    Explain how playing 12/60 cards of Dreadnought module is leading to powering out 7/7s that are not sped up by said Dreadnought module. Explain how the opponent can't just pay for ward that late in the game. Explain how stripping your own ward with Dress Down is a combo.

    I think so much of your thought process is comes from drawing false parallels to Kappa Cannoneer's ward 4 (which cones out as early as turn 2 or 3) and another false parallel between the experience of Uro midrange (a 4x Plow/4x Ending deck) vs Murktide.

    We saw it again as you explained your matchup vs Goblins where you were talking about Stifle'ing their Lackey and then also (despite burning your enablers) being able to make big dudes and reverse the advantage bar. It didn't stop there either, your next stuff was about having no green count and adding Endurance.

    All I see is someone at a chess board drawing up a strategy predicated upon moving their queen twice before passing priority.
    How about instead of repeating the same canards you:
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Just fuck off, honestly.

  8. #368
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    How about instead of repeating the same canards you:
    So you want to play behind MurkGoyf with Bane pretending you've already solved the problem...

    Then you want to cut Brazen to play further behind MurkGoyf....

    And now against a Daze and Bolt deck your brilliant idea is to play a 4 mana PW that has massive vulnerability to Bolt...

    You need to have a better strategy than throwing away the one matchup that matters more than any other [Delver]. This is a recurring problem in your thought process.

  9. #369

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    So you want to play behind MurkGoyf with Bane pretending you've already solved the problem...

    Then you want to cut Brazen to play further behind MurkGoyf....

    And now against a Daze and Bolt deck your brilliant idea is to play a 4 mana PW that has massive vulnerability to Bolt...

    You need to have a better strategy than throwing away the one matchup that matters more than any other [Delver]. This is a recurring problem in your thought process.
    I have another brilliant idea for you, you'll never guess:
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Just fuck off, honestly.

  10. #370

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Anyways played magic tonight, thoughts:
    Minsc and Boo are a house. I get it now. Very glad I came prepared https://twitter.com/4dogs1suit/statu...49505846497298
    Bane performed admirably. It was too big for burn to deal with (not that they could pay the 4) and Delver got stuck chumping it because they couldn't make the 8/8 murktide in time. By then I had plenty of time to find permission.
    You can't play six shocks. I need to find a way to get my hands on at least 1 affordable vulc and trop. 1 of each goes a long way with fetches.
    There's a fun subgame to be had when show and tell is cast and your hand is all dress down and stifles.
    All in all fun night. Will be making adjustments moving forward but not sure what yet.

  11. #371
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Anyways played magic tonight, thoughts:
    Minsc and Boo are a house. I get it now. Very glad I came prepared https://twitter.com/4dogs1suit/statu...49505846497298
    Bane performed admirably. It was too big for burn to deal with (not that they could pay the 4) and Delver got stuck chumping it because they couldn't make the 8/8 murktide in time. By then I had plenty of time to find permission.
    You can't play six shocks. I need to find a way to get my hands on at least 1 affordable vulc and trop. 1 of each goes a long way with fetches.
    There's a fun subgame to be had when show and tell is cast and your hand is all dress down and stifles.
    All in all fun night. Will be making adjustments moving forward but not sure what yet.
    Congrats. How did you do overall?

    What did you end up playing? How was the mana?

  12. #372

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Congrats. How did you do overall?

    What did you end up playing? How was the mana?
    2-2. A handful of punts and some well-punished decisions really got me.
    Beat: Burn, Delver
    Lost: Show and Tell, Reanimator

    Mana, quantitatively felt ok, but I was running too many shocks and not enough basics because I wanted to try a Temur list, with 4 bolts and 2 Minsc n Boos.
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Steam vents
    3 Breeding Pool
    2 Wasteland
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    1 Snow Forest
    1 Island

  13. #373
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    2-2. A handful of punts and some well-punished decisions really got me.
    Beat: Burn, Delver
    Lost: Show and Tell, Reanimator

    Mana, quantitatively felt ok, but I was running too many shocks and not enough basics because I wanted to try a Temur list, with 4 bolts and 2 Minsc n Boos.
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Wasteland
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    1 Snow Forest
    1 Island
    Did you have 3 Tropical 3 Volcanic like above, or was it 6 shocks? Or some mix of shocks and basics?

  14. #374

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Did you have 3 Tropical 3 Volcanic like above, or was it 6 shocks? Or some mix of shocks and basics?
    Sorry, I copied the list but I wrote it down with the duals and not the shocks I shuffled up

  15. #375

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Nice job beating Burn and Delver with six shocklands! That must feel good.

  16. #376

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Nice job beating Burn and Delver with six shocklands! That must feel good.
    It did!
    But I can't rely on that luck going forward. It basically shut down a lot of my game plan v burn because it meant being two turns behind on the draw, but thankfully was on the play g1 and 3.

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