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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #101
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    How do you figure standstill is any good currently? The flash in threats like Endurance, Ice Fang, Hullbreacher etc and the prevalence of Urza’s Saga make this a singularly poor time to go all-in on Standstill.

    Dreadnought is still a not well known and underplayed deck but the rare few occasions that I run into it on MTGO, its always one of the Dressnought lists.

    ...Thoughtseize is a must play...
    The usual suspects in legacy have roughly 20 slots of land, 10 slots of cantrips, around 8 slots of counters, 8 slots of Ending/Plow. They have very little room to surprise Standstill with a wincon. Ragavan is getting banned, and they will pretty much all run to Saga or Uro. Both are soft to hate, and the more widely used they are, the more the Standstill deck benefits from packing hate.

    Flash threats are of little concern, particularly out of opponents who routinely tap themselves out of said threats with sorceries.

    Here's what happens when you run into a real Dreadnought deck: https://youtu.be/D-RcXkxAVJo. The only chance Stiflenought ever has is lucking out creating a meaningful fight over mana. If that fight doesn't materialize, they just lose b/c Daze is in their deck.

    Thoughtseize is real bad in a fair/fairish deck. It is a lifeloss engine card is Shadow...which is a deck that only works in an environment with a falsely elevated amount of combo [legacy leagues].

  2. #102

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    For all the talk about Dreadstill, I couldnt find any Dreadstill lists put up any finishes on mtgtop8 in the past year. Where as a few Dressnought lists have already put up high finishes including some 5-0s even in the past few months.

    Thoughtseize is an incredible card. Losing 2 life is literally nothing when your game plan is swinging in with a 12/12 trampler and fear of life loss is a bad reason for a combo deck to avoid the best disruptive card in the format.

    Im in the large group of players who are not paying money on mtgo till wizards addresses Ragavan, just curious how many challenges have to fail to fire till they get the message, but if I did play a league on mtgo, this is what I would be playing...

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Force of Will
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Daze

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down

    4 Uro, Titan of Nature’s Wrath
    3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Dark Confidant
    1 Endurance
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Baleful Strix

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Witherbloom Command

    4 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Island

    Sideboard
    2 Veil of Summer
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Dauthi Voidwalker
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Endurance
    1 Carpet of Flowers
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Force of Vigor
    1 Witherbloom Command
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 10-29-2021 at 09:23 AM.

  3. #103
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Stiflenought is a simpler/more linear/easier-to-stop and [because of that simplicity/modern-style construction] worse deck. More people play Stiflenought as a meme, and they do so in combo-bloated online leagues [these are the easy matchups], hence why we see more results. More spaghetti you throw at a wall, the more that sticks. This Stiflenought stuff is just tourism, rather than a viable deck which promotes deck specialists.

    Here are some finishes for you, including a top8 showcase. In both cases I was coaching the pilots during the events. https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=26429&d=402664&f=LE and https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4244384#online

    Note that the showcase was done on legacy hard mode; Oko, Astro, and DHA were legal. To be fair though, both Lurrus and DHA are total jokes vs Standstill.

  4. #104
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Stiflenought is a simpler/more linear/easier-to-stop and [because of that simplicity/modern-style construction] worse deck. More people play Stiflenought as a meme, and they do so in combo-bloated online leagues [these are the easy matchups], hence why we see more results. More spaghetti you throw at a wall, the more that sticks. This Stiflenought stuff is just tourism, rather than a viable deck which promotes deck specialists.

    Here are some finishes for you, including a top8 showcase. In both cases I was coaching the pilots during the events.
    Why are there so few Dreadstill pilots out there, aside from you and Rood? Have others given up on the deck due to years of metagame changes? Is there just a lack of competent pilots due to skill threshold? Lack of trendiness not appealing to the netdeckers?

    Is this just a phenomenon of most of the old competitive Standstill players (10 years ago, when Standstill was clearly Tier 1) getting old and not playing as much competitive Magic, without enough of a new guard to take over the deck?

  5. #105

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Im actually of the belief that Ragavan is what's keeping Lurrus banned in legacy and that Lurrus gets unbanned soon after Ragavan gets banned. The day that happens, something similar to the below list imho will be the best deck in the format.

    4 Death's Shadow
    3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2 Dragon’s Rage Channeler
    1 Dark Confidant

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Force of Will
    1 Daze
    1 Unholy Heat
    1 Lightning Bolt
    1 Temur’s Battle Rage
    1 Expressive Iteration
    1 Snuff Out

    4 Mishra’s Bauble
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Watery Grave
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Blood Crypt
    1 Steam Vents
    1 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    1 Lurrus of the Dream Den

    My theory is that every fast blue deck absolutely should play atleast 1 Daze and 1 Wasteland minimum, as you will always find a use for the first copy, and doing so forces your opponent to play around a card that you often won't have in your hand.

  6. #106
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    @Captain Hammer: I've talked extensively about the problems with Ponder in Standstill shells, with self 2-for-1 strategies, and with Stifle shells; and as bad as Ponder is in these shells, Bauble is far worse. I have also talked extensively about the problems just Shadow decks have in that thread. These issues cannot be ignored outside of overly-represented combo, which exists only in legacy leagues. The numbers in your list don't make sense; 1 Wasteland, 1 Confidant, Battle Rage? Also why is it 3c? Why are you using Ponder to tap out of Stifle, and otherwise make your Stifles vulnerable to enemy Daze? You have to get away from the combat step if you want to win with Dreadnought; too easy to counter otherwise.

    On Shadow and Dreadnought: Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose is not playable...and the only reason to ever consider Nought and Shadow is a playable Vito passive + Orzhov Charm and Arguel's Blood Fast // Temple of Aclazotz. Notice how it's all synergy all the time, and the wincon is not just combat, it's a secret Diamond Valley cannon. This is the level of synergy you need to achieve to compete with Dreadnought b/c we do not win by playing normal legacy.

    @FTW I think the main issue is that you can't play legacy like normal with the card Standstill +/- the Dreadnoughts. It's a different consistency engine with a different playstyle needed to win. While there is a learning curve, the mistake I see over and over again is adding Ponder...and this is a construction error these decks can't recover from. It's the failure to recognize that adding Ponder immediately flipped a substantial amount of matchups to horrendous. The progression once someone loses slots to add Ponder goes something like this:
    -Standstill loses ownership of relevant decisions in the mid-late game.
    -this leads to overloading on 1-for-1 removal
    -spot removal comes at the cost of losing wraths and increased losses to combo (particularly vs DDFT, SnT, Storm, and Post)
    -eventually they give up and sabotage their own mana base with too many duals, begin picking up lands with Daze, and losing more land drops to Saga [and ofc by this time they have no answer to enemy Thespian Stage copy their own Saga]
    -they move on to another deck.

    I think it's very difficult for normal legacy players to go from the model of scrambling to fix greedy colors with Ponder & spam 1-card combos, to instead play by a model of overall mana progression with additive synergy/pressure as each mana level is reached.

  7. #107
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @FTW I think the main issue is that you can't play legacy like normal with the card Standstill +/- the Dreadnoughts. It's a different consistency engine with a different playstyle needed to win. While there is a learning curve, the mistake I see over and over again is adding Ponder...and this is a construction error these decks can't recover from. It's the failure to recognize that adding Ponder immediately flipped a substantial amount of matchups to horrendous. The progression once someone loses slots to add Ponder goes something like this:
    -Standstill loses ownership of relevant decisions in the mid-late game.
    The progression I've seen more often is from that step to people thinking Standstill underperformed and cutting Standstill.

    A good example is UWR "Ragastill". Many builds eventually cut Standstill. But it was never really a Standstill deck, aside from Urza's Saga. I don't think they realize their deck needs a much higher % of non-spell actions than the opponent's to really profit.

    I played Landstill in Legacy around 2007-2010ish. Back then it was one of the DTBs so most players either knew how to play it or play around it. I'm not surprised the newer era of Delver and Uro players misplay the deck, but I wonder what happened to all those Standstill players.
    Last edited by FTW; 11-02-2021 at 12:23 PM.

  8. #108
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    We lost all of our pilots when Counterbalance and SDT were allowed to go to 4x slots each, thanks to slot-saving allowed by 1 mana wrath and Entreat.

    After wotc banned the wrong card (SDT), legacy was thrown into it's worst era where everyone had to suffer through years of idiocy defined by Counterbalance vs Hymn/Snapcaster - pick either deck here, and that's where the ex-Standstill pilots went. Both Counterbalance and Hymn spam lose to FIRE, and anyone who played these was forced to chase FIRE and is now on Uro or Ragavan. It is easier/lower-skill to play 1-card combos, and that's why Standstill hasn't recovered its playerbase.

    On the UWR Ragavan decks, it all comes from my UR Dreadstill list given to Ark4n with instructions about how adding Ragavan means you can't really play Standstill or Dreadnought. Ark4n got rid of the good manabase (using Ponder to cover it up), went all-in on Saga (easy to counter), and all of this was further covered by Prismatic Ending (which benefits from Ragavan exploiting).

    On Ragavan and the card Standstill, this is not a combo. You're just playing yourself into Karakas while playing yourself out of the ability to cast the cards you're stealing. The latter part was also true of Dreadhorde - the card is trash played with Standstill.

    Most of legacy can't execute a meaningful gameplan vs Prismatic Ending, and we'll continue to see the ex-Standstill players stay on Uro in Bant colors after the RagaBan. Playing this this greedily with colors forces Ponder use; ensuring no return to Standstill's consistency engine for our lost pilots.

    The thing that's so funny about all this is that there a few cards as good as Standstill to be casting against 4x Plow & 4x Ending users...but those who add Standstill will play too few "big effects" like wraths [they will just mimic 4x Plow & 4x Ending] and they will add Ponder...making their deck a crappier version of Ponder + greedy 1-card combos [aka Uro midrange].

    You see the same thing in this thread. Ponder + Dreadnought is poor deckbuilding, but you give them Dress Down and they seem to be super enthusiasiastic to pointlessly jam into quad-laser Plow/Ending...

  9. #109
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    On the UWR Ragavan decks, it all comes from my UR Dreadstill list given to Ark4n with instructions about how adding Ragavan means you can't really play Standstill or Dreadnought. Ark4n got rid of the good manabase (using Ponder to cover it up), went all-in on Saga (easy to counter), and all of this was further covered by Prismatic Ending (which benefits from Ragavan exploiting).
    I mean... UWR Ragavan is a Tier 1 deck until the ban. Those changes work from the sheer power level of those MH2 cards. They just don't work with Standstill. So of course they cut Standstills and it becomes another UWx Xerox pile, except with Ragavan and Saga instead of Uro and Endurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The thing that's so funny about all this is that there a few cards as good as Standstill to be casting against 4x Plow & 4x Ending users...but those who add Standstill will play too few "big effects" like wraths [they will just mimic 4x Plow & 4x Ending] and they will add Ponder...making their deck a crappier version of Ponder + greedy 1-card combos [aka Uro midrange].
    I saw that in a few videos. They jam Standstill, but then can't cast free cards with Ragavan, can't do much under Standstill, end up discarding to hand size around the same time as opponent (should not happen if built better), both players are on 7 cards, then opponent cracks Standstill before discard phase and they just got a "draw 3 discard 3" with a hand overloaded with 1-for-1s, leaving them roughly at parity with opponent instead of far ahead. A typical Standstill deck would be far ahead by then. Or if they didn't play Standstill, they could have cashed that Ponder earlier for velocity and have the same 1-for-1 answers but with better tempo.

    I guess that creates a decision fork where you must either choose Xerox pile or Standstill, and anything in between is a mess.

  10. #110

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    CARTESIAN 5-0ed with a very fresh take on the deck

    Creature (12)
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Sprite Dragon

    Sorcery (4)
    4 Ponder

    Instant (19)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Spell Pierce

    Artifact (2)
    2 Scroll of Fate

    Enchantment (4)
    4 Dress Down

    Land (19)
    3 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Volcanic Island
    3 Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Abrade
    2 Counterbalance
    2 Hydroblast
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Pyroclasm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Tormod's Crypt

    Very spicy brew. Its cool that its playing Sprite Dragon instead of Ragavan. I suppose Sprite Dragon presents a faster clock.

    I also find the lack of Stifle and the use of Scroll of Fate instead very cool. Cool list CARTESIAN.
    I think the red builds have been the most successful. I also saw the video where BoshNRoll went 4-1 with the below list…

    Creatures (13)
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    Spells (21)
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Lightning Bolt
    3 Ponder
    3 Stifle
    1 Abrade
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    Artifacts (3)
    3 Mishra's Bauble

    Enchantments (4)
    4 Dress Down

    Lands (19)
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Tropical Island
    1 Urza's Saga
    4 Volcanic Island
    3 Wasteland
    4 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Veil of Summer
    1 Collector Ouphe
    2 Pyroclasm
    1 Return to Nature
    1 Torpor Orb
    1 Brazen Borrower

    And it fared really well.

    I would probably replace a lightning bolt or two with Unholy Heat and cut some Dazes or Ponders or the Abrade to make room for the 4th Ragavan and an Expressive Iteration or two, and maybe an Endurance and maybe even a basic Island by cutting some number of Dazes, Ponders and Abrades.

    Its sad that the best version of the deck (the red splash for Ragavan and Dragon’s Rage with Bauble to help enable Delirium and Uro and Urza’s Saga) never got much development or improvement, or even saw any play once it 5-0ed a couple of times.

  11. #111

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Sundial of the Infinite seems very abusable in Uro Dressnought lists with Endurance.

    I’m assuming you can end the turn after letting the card draw trigger of Uro resolve but before the sacrifice trigger resolves in the same way you can use Sundial to prevent Dreadnought from being sacced or prevent an evoked creature from getting sacced after allowing its ETB trigger to resolve.

    So Dreadnought, Uro and Endurance/Fury/Solitude all have a very useful interaction with both Dress Down and Sundial.

    Sundial also prevents your opponents from casting any spells during your turn.

    Can you think of other ways to abuse Sundial that give it extra utility in Temur, Sultai or Bant Dressnought shells?

    Another option is to play Sundial and Torpor Orb and/or Stifle alongside Uro and Urza’s Saga since Saga tutors up Dreadnought when you have Orb or Sundial in play, and you can cut Dress Down due to its dissynergy with your own construct tokens.

  12. #112
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Already been there, done that. Just search for "AstroNought" on these forums. The tldr is that Dreadhorde is banned [Bolt is worse], Oko is banned [meta is wider], and Astrolabe is banned [invalidating most of the reason to play Dreadnought with Painter].

    The issue with Sundial and Torpor Orb is that they are useless in multiples. Contrast this with Scroll of Fate [deploys redundant copies as 2/2s] and Dress Down which cycles at worst.

    There is little point in evoke spamming pitch-elementals into Dress Down; you get both triggers or you get none.

    When discussing UG, the issue will always be removal and wraths. Among the best things you can do in these colors is Stifle a Lotus Field, or dump it in off Uro making +2 escape fuel, be able to tutor Lotus Field with Reclaimer (so you only need to use 2 slots on Field), and use Lotus to power out Nissa of the 5/5s...and chuck 5/5 hexproofs at the opponent's face. While it isn't great, you can technically run 2x Verdict b/c of Lotus and otherwise pitch to 6x Force effects. The spot removal angle is covered by Ice-Fang.

    Contrast this style of synergy independence of sequence/everything works together versus Sundial/Torpor where thing A must be done before thing B, and piece A + piece A does nothing.

  13. #113
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I don't see the appeal of Dress Down+Endurance. You 3-for-2 yourself just to make a flash 3/4 creature for 1U. If you paid 1GG you would get that same creature with reach, without card disadvantage, and with the graveyard shuffle trigger. The Dress Down "combo" saves you just 1 mana, at the cost of a green card and the ETB trigger. How often is that worth it? Just play Endurance as normal. Most of the time you want its ability or the ambush body with Reach. A 2-mana vanilla 3/4 (badgoyf) is not worth card disadvantage.

    The interaction with Sundial of the Infinite seems good. The downside is Sundial is bad in multiples. 1 copy in the 75 is good, but then do you run more? Maybe you run something like 2 Scroll of Fate + 1 Sundial?

  14. #114
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    The interaction with Sundial of the Infinite seems good. The downside is Sundial is bad in multiples. 1 copy in the 75 is good, but then do you run more? Maybe you run something like 2 Scroll of Fate + 1 Sundial?
    No point to running a random artifact enabler in the main when it could just be a Karn. In terms of keeping opponents from playing on your turn, they already printed Teferi 3cmc...and all of this is already stock in UW Dreadstill. Also Teferi passive + Scroll is overpowered.

  15. #115
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Another option is to play Sundial and Torpor Orb and/or Stifle alongside Uro and Urza’s Saga since Saga tutors up Dreadnought when you have Orb or Sundial in play, and you can cut Dress Down due to its dissynergy with your own construct tokens.
    This deck is a good example of why multiple Sundial and Torpor Orb looks bad. So much draw variance and so many dead cards.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgxAyWLEhCo&t=7s

  16. #116

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    jacetmsst recently 5-0ed with the Bant Dressnought list very similar to the one in the OP…

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...lenought#paper

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    1 Sylvan Library

    4 Wasteland
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Tropical Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Snow-Covered Forest
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Plains

    Very focused, fast and consistent. If any of the mtgo grinders pick up this list, I wouldnt be surprised to see this deck put up a lot of results.
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; Yesterday at 02:27 AM.

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