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Thread: Dwarf Bugs

  1. #81
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    My point was more that you always need like Magda + Changelings, Reyav + equipment + Rancor, etc.
    There is the Magda plan and the equipment plan which is a different deck which seems just better to me.
    If you draw the wrong combination of cards, you still only have changelings.

    It is common misconception that discard wins vs unfair decks.
    At most it slows them down.
    Your clock is still slow and if you don't draw the right cards it's even slower.
    6 cards is also not that much and Therapy is not reliable, at least the first time you cast it.
    Gotchya, I understand. Thanks.

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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    So are there any versions of the deck that you think have positive unfair MD matchups and/or have a respectable ability to generate card advantage?

  3. #83

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    So are there any versions of the deck that you think have positive unfair MD matchups and/or have a respectable ability to generate card advantage?
    The initial versions of the deck can generate some advantage but rely heavily on drawing the right cards.

    As for beating unfair decks, that's what a big part of this thread is about.
    In a concept that needs so many individual parts to work, I'm not seeing it tbh.

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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    The initial versions of the deck can generate some advantage but rely heavily on drawing the right cards.

    As for beating unfair decks, that's what a big part of this thread is about.
    In a concept that needs so many individual parts to work, I'm not seeing it tbh.
    Unfortunately I don't feel the initial versions did this in any reasonable way, so there's no real "legacy" technology that I'm seeing that we can implement here.

    Here are my thoughts, based on this response:

    Given how much air the deck is priced into at this point (meaning until we start printing some better friends for Magda) I don't think attempting to draw additional cards is a reasonable way to try to fight a game against an opponent with higher density of answers than you have threats. So if the concern is leveraging card advantage in a grindier game, I feel like the better tac may just be to deny the opponent theirs. Spirit of the Labyrinth might be the kind of effect that could help in this regard, and has the side benefit of increasing the opportunity to steal Game 1 off of an unfair opponent by turning off cantrips and Echo of Eons.

    Unfortunately I don't think I can reasonably increase the fair (No Magda on 2) clock of the deck to faster than Turn 4 (un-interacted with), which I think is respectable for what the deck is doing but I appreciate isn't exactly going to straight up race the face combo decks, even with a Thoughtseize, and is slower and less robust than things like the Madness 8-Wala deck are doing. The only other thing I can think to do here is switch the Madga target to Platinum Angel, which as this thread has talked about yes is more vulnerable, but is definitely a more solid lock vs. Combo. I don't think current stock builds of Doomsday, TES, or Reanimator can beat it whatsoever, it's still at the very least hard to answer game 1 for a lot of other unfair decks, and in fair games you can just fetch something else.

    This means Game 1 against combo we would have a hand disruption, a 2-card combo win of our own (but without a way to search it up), a card-draw denial effect in Spirit of the Labyrinth against combos for which that is relevant (Sneak and Show, Doomsday, Elves, High Tide, etc), and a reasonable Turn 4 fair clock since we can often start swinging for 10 turn 3.

    I'm not saying this makes us favored in the matchup, I think you're right that even with all of this we'd still be a dog, but it seems like past that point the marginal cost of increasing the unfair matchup becomes too expensive as it detracts from the built in infrastructure of the deck, and at least personally I'd be willing to accept that as long as the sideboard was reasonable.

    In my case, at least, this would bring me closer to a list that looks like (doing my best to adapt to your input):

    4 - Mothdust Changeling
    4 - Universal Automaton
    4 - Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 - Reyav, Master Smith
    4 - Stoneforge Mystic
    4 - Valiant Changeling
    3 - Spirit of the Labyrinth
    1 - Platinum Angel

    4 - Thoughtseize
    4 - Rancor
    1 - Kaldra, Compleat
    1 - Batterskull

    4 - Cavern of Souls
    4 - City of Brass
    4 - Mana Confluence
    3 - Unclaimed Territory
    2 - Reflecting Pool
    1 - Windswept Heath
    1 - Verdant Catacombs
    1 - Scrubland
    1 - Savannah
    1 - Gemstone Mine

    As it stands I'd still be reluctant to move from this list towards other currently suggested ones that I've seen (although I'd be happy to be pitched them more strongly). Based on current experience (although I do need more of that before getting a sufficient sense of things), I don't feel like your assessment of a mix-and-match problem is pervasive in this list beyond that which I believe is unfortunately bought into by the need to reasonably play at least 12 other non-valiant-dwarves besides Magda. Rancor has 8 partners which can lead it to kill in just a couple turns, which puts us up at around 75% to be optimally payed off on turn 3 all else being equal, and in the worse case is a way to get some unimpressive but real value out of "stinkers" that often sticks around or can be recurred while we wait for one of those 8 cards to come up or just give Batterskull some extra power and trample. Reyav has an even higher density of high synergy partners.

    Ultimately the game we're talking about is what are the number of non-functional hands we can draw. While a card like rancor does increase the number of hands we can draw that objectively non-functional (drawing 2 rancors and lands looks pretty bad when you could have drawn 2 independently valid threats), it increases the number of playable hands that include the "2-drop non-Magda dwarf slot" immensely, and also turns Valiant changeling into a 2 turn threat even against a mildly clogged board state. The thing is that I don't think we can reasonably build a deck with Magda, 12 otherwise unplayable dwarves, and then a bunch of strictly independently good cards and compete. I think we need to increase the competitive viability of those 12 slots, and that means at least for the time being that we're somewhat priced into a "plug and play" style deck. (Parts that are designed to make other parts better) Would you agree?

    If you're willing to make that concession, I would make the argument that Reyav is the most competitive non-Valiant dwarf available to us for 2 mana or less. He synergizes with Magda because he essentially doubles the things that Magda searches out, and with the right set of cards he perma-berserks your own creatures, and while Rancor isn't exactly a legacy staple it does strongly synergize with other cards we're already playing.

    So your criticism is right, I don't like the G1 combo matchup and I do have more dead hands than I would like in a perfect world, but I still don't see an off-ramp on the highway of logic that goes

    Magda needs a critical density of Dwarf Friends -> We have to make those Dwarf Friends better -> We are priced into being synergy based -> There's a 2-drop dwarf that synergizes with Magda and regularly produces Turn 4 kills -> We should be playing that Dwarf

    And yes, this path leads me towards Rancor, but it also leads into things like T1 Thoughtseize into an Uncounterable Stone-Forge mystic, so of the paths of which I am currently away this is still the most promising one - although I might certainly be unaware of something you are.

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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Magda needs a critical density of Dwarf Friends -> We have to make those Dwarf Friends better -> We are priced into being synergy based -> There's a 2-drop dwarf that synergizes with Magda and regularly produces Turn 4 kills -> We should be playing that Dwarf
    T2 dwarf drops :
    Seven Dwarves : you can have seven of them in your deck and each one makes all the other better.
    Veteran Motorist : nice combo with Smuggler's Copter for card draw and tapped Dwarfs without havin to attack with the dwarves themselves.

    Depala, Pilot Exemplar : dwarf lord + card advantage. Don't understand why this deck doesn't have at least one copy.

    Mothdust -> Magda -> Depala is nice, no ?
    Maybe being more explosive with Petals and refill hand with Depala ?

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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    I found that Platinum Emperion was too easy to just remove against a lot of what I was running up against, while Sundering Titan provides value immediately and can get multiple lands at once. I could easily be wrong on that selection though. (One of the major reasons I'm looking for feedback here is that I haven't had enough time to test this sufficiently yet to figure those details out myself with much confidence.)
    It probably depends on the matchup. Sundering Titan is probably better against multicolor fair decks packed with StPs and multiple land types to hit. Has it been forced to kill your Scrubland and Savannah much?

    Emperion is good against combo (e.g. Storm, Depths, Doomsday). You can "not lose" at instant speed instead of losing, after they blow all their resources to combo fast. Then you get to stall many turns while they have to find an answer to Emperion. Otherwise this deck struggles to interact with combo.

    You've added discard instead for the combo matchup. That works for some combo decks (awkward vs Depths) but does lead to sequencing conflict. G1 vs unknown opponent you really want to play T1 changeling instead of T1 discard. But that means they may get you in game 1 even though you drew your answer. If you did lead on discard to be safe, they might not be combo and that slows down the Magda and Valiant lines by a full turn. If you're going for T1 discard at the expense of T2 Magda/Valiant, why even play this deck instead of another discard deck like Deadguy Ale? So there's some sequencing conflict with the T1 discard main. In other versions we considered Force of Will instead of discard, partly because it leads to smoother sequencing. I see why you don't have Force. But I wonder if maindeck discard is really the solution. Instead, you could try maindeck hatebears and SB discard, only needing to play T1 discard when you know it matters?

    Edit: I meant Platinum Angel instead of Platinum Emperion. Emperion is quite bad vs Thassa's Oracle decks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    So are there any versions of the deck that you think have positive unfair MD matchups and/or have a respectable ability to generate card advantage?
    I'm a bit biased because I posted it, but I think the Grixis Dwarf-Ninja hybrid manages this problem well. Yuriko to draw cards with Changelings. Force of Will to interact with combo without awkward sequencing.

    Retrofitter Foundry is a good way to generate advantage from a board of durdly Changelings (T: become 4/4). It takes fewer pieces than the equipment/aura plan. Easy 4-of.

    Some builds use an Urza's Saga package for multiple purposes:
    -Generate threats
    -Generate card advantage
    -Tutor for combo hate pieces like Pithing Needle, Aether Spellbomb
    -Find Retrofitter

    I don't know that any of this makes the unfair match positive, but they should help.

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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    It probably depends on the matchup. Sundering Titan is probably better against multicolor fair decks packed with StPs and multiple land types to hit. Has it been forced to kill your Scrubland and Savannah much?
    More than I would like at least, yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    You've added discard instead for the combo matchup. That works for some combo decks (awkward vs Depths) but does lead to sequencing conflict.
    I'm pretty sure the build I'm working on right now would get obliterated by depths at least 70% of the time. You're right about the sequencing conflict, but in practice it's never been a problem on the draw leading on Changeling when keeping an opener with both and dictating the turn 2 sequence based on 1st turn identification and whether or not they tap out (if they tap out, I can safely Magda, produce treasure, and then Thoughtseize, which is better than letting the removal against the non-combo opponent hit Magda anyways). It's a valid conceptual concern but in practice it hasn't been overly problematic since you can Magda and Thoughtseize in the same turn 2, and I'd be hesitant to play Magda into open Turn 1 mana without Thoughtseizing them first if I have the option anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    If you're going for T1 discard at the expense of T2 Magda/Valiant, why even play this deck instead of another discard deck like Deadguy Ale?
    Well I'm not claiming you actually should as of yet, but I have a quicker clock, a combo, can cast my cards off of force of will to weaken counter-magic, and I get a 5 color sideboard. It is more than bad cards deadguy ale.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    In other versions we considered Force of Will instead of discard, partly because it leads to smoother sequencing. I see why you don't have Force. But I wonder if maindeck discard is really the solution. Instead, you could try maindeck hatebears and SB discard, only needing to play T1 discard when you know it matters?.
    Okay but removing discard leaves my key creatures more vulnerable to removal. I don't know if I want to weaken all my fair matches to show up my combo match a bit more but still not to fantastic levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I'm a bit biased because I posted it, but I think the Grixis Dwarf-Ninja hybrid manages this problem well. Yuriko to draw cards with Changelings. Force of Will to interact with combo without awkward sequencing.

    Retrofitter Foundry is a good way to generate advantage from a board of durdly Changelings (T: become 4/4). It takes fewer pieces than the equipment/aura plan. Easy 4-of.
    I definitely believe my current list is less competitive than straight-up stock Ninjas, I'm just not convinced that "Dwarf Ninjas" is that much better than Ninjas. It might be, I'm not telling you you're doing it wrong and I haven't tried your list, but while I feel pretty confident is talking about why what I'm doing here is distinct from Deadguy Ale, I'm not actually so sure what problems Ninjas have that Dwarves solve. (Feel free to elaborate on that.)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Some builds use an Urza's Saga package for multiple purposes:
    -Generate threats
    -Generate card advantage
    -Tutor for combo hate pieces like Pithing Needle, Aether Spellbomb
    -Find Retrofitter

    I don't know that any of this makes the unfair match positive, but they should help.
    I've seen the bwangeroo videos and while I respect the cards in the tutor package, I'm apprehensive about taking a deck with these types of mana requirements and adding a colorless land so that I can tutor up situational answers to fast combo on Turn 4 while also adding more air to the deck to fit that tutor package in. If I make it to turn 4, I'd rather just kill them anyways, ideally.

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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    (Plays around with Ninja Dwarves for Science)

    ... Oh, Reaper King destroys lands and is a blue card for FoW.

    Okay, well that's at least one thing I didn't adequately appreciate about the idea. I don't know why that didn't immediately process. Getting to un-deadify drawing a Magda target certainly reduces the cost of the package.

  9. #89

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    I think yours is an interesting build haven't played around with it myself but Reyav seems neat. Giving Kaldra double-strike seems pretty awesome in and of itself, and Rancor on a Valiant Changeling likewise seems great. I'm willing to believe that the aggro draws have a faster goldfish than those of more stock builds.

    However, I feel like it might actually be more susceptible to opposing disruption than at least my Saga-based build? Saga, Foundry, and Grist are all great at grinding opponents out when their plan is mono-removal, whereas equipment + Auras play into removal more. I suppose that's where the discard is supposed to come in but I think at least against blue interactive decks, it's easy for them to just cantrip their way to another removal spell. E.g., trading Thoughtseize for their Swords to Plowshares isn't reliable when they have Expressive Iteration + Ponder in hand as well. Better to overload the removal than try to strip them of it, imo.

    The discard probably does give you better game against combo in g1, though. I'm mostly OK accepting those as bad matchups and rely on the sideboard to shore them up.

    Some minor points:
    - Without Saga or Clock of Omens, isn't Changeling Outcast just better than Universal Automaton in your build?
    - I would guess that Umezawa's Jitte or SoFaI would be better than Grafted Wargear. Getting double triggers off a double-striking creature is the cherry on top.

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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by bwangeroo View Post
    I think yours is an interesting build haven't played around with it myself but Reyav seems neat. Giving Kaldra double-strike seems pretty awesome in and of itself, and Rancor on a Valiant Changeling likewise seems great. I'm willing to believe that the aggro draws have a faster goldfish than those of more stock builds.

    However, I feel like it might actually be more susceptible to opposing disruption than at least my Saga-based build? Saga, Foundry, and Grist are all great at grinding opponents out when their plan is mono-removal, whereas equipment + Auras play into removal more. I suppose that's where the discard is supposed to come in but I think at least against blue interactive decks, it's easy for them to just cantrip their way to another removal spell. E.g., trading Thoughtseize for their Swords to Plowshares isn't reliable when they have Expressive Iteration + Ponder in hand as well. Better to overload the removal than try to strip them of it, imo.
    Oh, that's definitely the case. I've conceded losing G1 to mono-removal and trying to pivot to Steely Resolve out of the board, but obviously that still fails to mono-removal+countermagic. It's probably a lack of respect for UR Delver since I'm playing at Card Kingdom Paper Weeklies, Delver is underrepresented, and I've been generally lucky (probably) against it so far. Thoughtseize and Rancor vs. Urza's Saga is clearly a worse heavy-removal Delver plan though, I can't argue with that.

    Do you feel you have a positive UR Delver matchup?

  11. #91

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Oh, that's definitely the case. I've conceded losing G1 to mono-removal and trying to pivot to Steely Resolve out of the board, but obviously that still fails to mono-removal+countermagic. It's probably a lack of respect for UR Delver since I'm playing at Card Kingdom Paper Weeklies, Delver is underrepresented, and I've been generally lucky (probably) against it so far. Thoughtseize and Rancor vs. Urza's Saga is clearly a worse heavy-removal Delver plan though, I can't argue with that.

    Do you feel you have a positive UR Delver matchup?
    Oh no, UR Delver is awful. Probably one of the worst matchups. They kill you in the air before any of the Grist/Saga/Foundry grindy stuff matters. I've found that, depending on how reliant their build is on DRC/Murktide, if you can mulligan to a good hand + a Leyline of the Void in postboard games, that can help a lot, because then they're basically trying to use Ragavan only to kill you, giving you time to set up with your Grist/Saga/Foundry stuff. But Leyline + otherwise functional hand is still going to be a minority of hands.

    I feel a bit better about "fair blue midrange soup" decks though.

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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Well I'm not claiming you actually should as of yet, but I have a quicker clock, a combo, can cast my cards off of force of will to weaken counter-magic, and I get a 5 color sideboard. It is more than bad cards deadguy ale.
    My point was less about comparing you to Deadguy Ale specifically than that T1 Changeling T2 Magda/Valiant is the best thing about Dwarves. Imho if you build in a way that discourages that play pattern, then you risk losing the best reasons to be Dwarves instead of some other random Thoughtseize deck.

    If you find in practice that Thoughtseize doesn't conflict with sequencing (especially if you can go T2 Magda into Thoughtseize), that changes things. I also didn't consider how much you were using discard to clear removal from fair decks, not just to police unfair decks. Getting rid of instant removal does seem important when you depend on untapping with Magda/Stoneforge or can get 2-for-1'd on Rancor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    I definitely believe my current list is less competitive than straight-up stock Ninjas, I'm just not convinced that "Dwarf Ninjas" is that much better than Ninjas. It might be, I'm not telling you you're doing it wrong and I haven't tried your list, but while I feel pretty confident is talking about why what I'm doing here is distinct from Deadguy Ale, I'm not actually so sure what problems Ninjas have that Dwarves solve. (Feel free to elaborate on that.)
    I was just answering your question about whether any other Dwarf builds have respectable ability to generate card advantage and fight unfair decks MD. That was the very origin of my brew: a conscious effort to solve both those problems (as well as the mana denial problem), starting with the Changeling + Dwarf shell. At that point I was also trying to cut Dwarves down to 3 colors for more stable mana and better noncreature SB options. RUG, UWR and RUB were all tried. Ninjas have the best tribal draw engine. I experimented with other tribe lords, but there was no better CA enabler than Yuriko. The other changes weren't necessarily Ninja-related. Retrofitter Foundry is good with Changelings. Force/Daze help the unfair matchups without interfering with sequencing, natural fits in a proactive plan that wants to tap out for creatures on T1 and T2. These changes solve many Dwarf problems, at the expense of some of the fun combo lines. The deck ends up looking a lot like Ninjas as it tries to solve similar problems in the same colors, but it really started as a changeling shell splashing Yuriko/Infiltrator for card draw.

    What makes it different than Ninjas? Magda + Mothdust opens up different lines and allow you to cut Ornithopter (no 0/2 topdecks), since Mothdust can also gain evasion or turn into a 4/4. With the extra 1/1s it's also much better at blocking Ragavan.

    Magda -> Reaper King is not only a fatty lord but turns your changelings into 1-mana Vindicates. That's insane value and destroys permanent types Ninjas normally can't. Ninjitsu returns changelings to hand to reuse... Reaper King also pitches to FoW and -10s them with Yuriko + Brainstorm, so the card has a lot of uses.

    Magda's +1/+0 makes the durdly 1-drops better. Magda's treasures add tempo to do things like play out extra cards drawn or hold untapped mana to threaten tricks.

    Magda's ability can also get Retrofitter or SB artifact pieces. That diversifies some SB options. If you're facing an unfair deck like TES with Defense Grids + Silence/Veil to hate out counterspells, now they have to worry about both counters and permanent-based hate (tutorable with Magda). That taxes their answers since they don't usually run answers to both at the same time.

    You also gain red SB cards like Abrade and Pyroblast, doing things that UB cards don't.

    So it's not strictly worse than Ninjas. I'm not convinced it's necessarily better either, which is why I haven't developed the deck further. But it does do things and offer different lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Oh, that's definitely the case. I've conceded losing G1 to mono-removal and trying to pivot to Steely Resolve out of the board, but obviously that still fails to mono-removal+countermagic. It's probably a lack of respect for UR Delver since I'm playing at Card Kingdom Paper Weeklies, Delver is underrepresented, and I've been generally lucky (probably) against it so far. Thoughtseize and Rancor vs. Urza's Saga is clearly a worse heavy-removal Delver plan though, I can't argue with that.
    What matchups have you tested so far in paper? What is this meta like?

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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    ThrabenU tries another iteration of this deck. DwarfThopterFaeries: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuE0oBMhgrI

    Phil's Deck

    //Lands: 22
    4 Urza's Saga
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 City of Brass
    4 Mana Confluence
    3 Secluded Courtyard
    2 Wasteland
    1 Karakas

    //Artifacts: 11
    4 Aether Vial
    4 Retrofitter Foundry
    1 Springleaf Drum
    1 Aether Spellbomb
    1 Clock of Omens

    //Creatures: 23
    4 Universal Automaton
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 Unsettled Mariner
    4 Spellstutter Sprite
    1 Mirror Entity
    1 Scourge of Valkas
    1 Platinum Emperion

    //Spells: 4
    2 Once Upon A Time
    2 Swords to Plowshares

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Valiant Changeling
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Leyline of the Void
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 God-Pharaoh's Statue
    1 Masked Vandal
    1 Vampires' Vengeance


    There's an "infinite" combo here.
    Magda + 5 treasures + Universal Automaton -> Clock of Omens -> Tap Clock + Automaton: untap Automaton & create Treasure -> Tap Automaton + treasure: untap Automaton & creature Treasure -> infinite tapped Treasures -> Scourge -> get every changeling & kill with Scourge's ETB trigger

    That looks fun. But to me it looks like the combo is fragile and has too many moving pieces. Phil thought so too and never got to pull it off, adding Platinum Emperion and God-Pharaoh's Statue as easier Magda targets.

    StP is hard to cast in this manabase (9 lands produce white), but from Phil's games removal seemed important.
    Vial seems suboptimal with a 1-2 curve. I suppose it allows uncounterable Magda or holding up Spellstutter Sprite, but it's a bad topdeck in a deck that already has a lot of bad draws.

    I notice that if you cut the Clock combo and OUAT, this is just Jeskai colors. You could play a regular Jeskai manabase and cast spells more easily.

    Jeskai Dwarf-Thopter-Faeries

    //Lands: 20
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Tundra
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Snow-Covered Mountain
    4 Mutavault

    //Spells: 12
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    //Creatures: 24
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Universal Automaton
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 Spellstutter Sprite
    4 Unsettled Mariner
    3 Valiant Changeling
    1 Platinum Emperion

    //Artifacts: 4
    4 Retrofitter Foundry

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Force of Will
    2 Prismatic Ending
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 Unlicensed Hearse
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 God-Pharaoh's Statue
    1 Reaper King
    1 Vampires' Vengeance


    That gives more stable colored mana (Xerox) and access to more powerful disruptive tools (FoW, StP, Ending) and SB choices. There isn't room for both Mutavault and Saga here. I think Mutavault is slightly better in this configuration with less room for artifacts. cards]Mutavault[/cards] is a Thopter (turns into 4/4 with Retrofitter), Dwarf (makes Treasures with Magda), Faerie (helps Spellstutter counter), and makes Valiant Changeling cost less even after a board wipe. Mutavault and maindeck Valiants should improve the fair beatdown plan when Magda and Retrofitter are disrupted.

    Instead of Spellstutter, this deck may want Depala, Pilot Exemplar for more beatdown and card draw.

    Or you could keep the rainbow mana, cleaning it up a bit, and add Changeling Outcast for better lines with Retrofitter and Magda

    Rainbow Dwarf-Thopter-Faeries

    //Lands: 22
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Secluded Courtyard
    4 City of Brass
    4 Mana Confluence
    4 Urza's Saga
    2 Mutavault

    //Creatures: 27
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Universal Automaton
    4 Changeling Outcast
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 Spellstutter Sprite
    4 Unsettled Mariner
    1 Masked Vandal
    1 Mirror Entity
    1 Platinum Emperion

    //Artifacts: 6
    4 Retrofitter Foundry
    1 Aether Spellbomb
    1 Springleaf Drum

    //Spells: 5
    3 Once Upon A Time
    2 Dismember

    //Partial Sideboard:
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Valiant Changeling
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 God-Pharaoh's Statue
    1 Vampires' Vengeance


    Dismember might be better than StP with such a low white-producing land count, so I have a 2/2 split. With even more creatures and fewer spells, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben may be good in the SB.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-13-2022 at 11:54 PM.

  14. #94

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Oh hey, this was my donation :)

    Thanks for watching, I have some reflections on your notes:

    But to me it looks like the combo is fragile and has too many moving pieces. Phil thought so too and never got to pull it off, adding Platinum Emperion and God-Pharaoh's Statue as easier Magda targets.
    I'm a pretty big believer in the Clock combo Clock is my most often Magda target, and I win with the combo much more than I do by just fetching a dragon. Platinum Emperion and God-Pharaoh's Statue I think are too low-impact and are importantly hard to hardcast when you draw them. Needing Automaton to get the chain started is less of a drawback than it might seem, with 8 functional copies in Automaton + Saga.

    Vial seems suboptimal with a 1-2 curve. I suppose it allows uncounterable Magda or holding up Spellstutter Sprite, but it's a bad topdeck in a deck that already has a lot of bad draws.
    Yeah Vial definitely isn't as good here as it is in something with a higher curve like DnT, but it still serves lots of important roles. Making Magda or Sprite uncounterable is big game sometimes. Gives you some game against Blood Moon and Back to Basics. Helps neutralize Karakas against Magda. Importantly, actually lets you get away with the 8 colorless source manabase, both in color-fixing and in letting you use those mana-intensive colorless lands. Retrofitter in addition can be mana-intensive and Vial helps with that.

    I notice that if you cut the Clock combo and OUAT, this is just Jeskai colors. You could play a regular Jeskai manabase and cast spells more easily.
    I've tried a Jeskai manabase in the past and found that this actually made the mana a bit worse. Consider: if you have 2 rainbow lands and a colorless land, a single Wasteland doesn't color-screw you, whereas if you have Tundra + Volcanic + a colorless land, a single Wasteland does. You also lose lots of other benefits as well: OUaT is an incredible card for a creature-based combo deck, Retrofitter Foundry into Masked Vandal is a great opener against artifact-based decks, and you can't afford to play quite as many colorless lands (e.g. not being able to play Saga is tough).

    Dismember might be better than StP with such a low white-producing land count, so I have a 2/2 split
    Dismember is definitely a viable option that I've considered in the past, it's just so bad against Delver though. And also less good against insulating you from Marit Lage. But pretty good in most other respects.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  16. #96
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    That looks like a fun concept!

    It looks too ambitious on big mana plays though. Probably cut
    -4 Leyline, -2 Helm, -3 Liliana's Contract, -1 Mark

    From there you may want to reconsider some of the singleton demons. It's cool that most are hardcastable at 2-4 mana, but maybe you don't need so many. The tribal ones that draw cards seem best. Otherwise you can run more Changelings (count as Demon or Dwarf - or Berserker or Cleric). Maybe 1 Demon-Dragon or Artifact Demon as a Magda target. And some sacrifice outlet so you can sacrifice the stolen creature before opponent removes your Demons.

    Cutting blue is tough because Mothdust Changeling is the best enabler for Magda, Brazen Outlaw. You can still get treasures by attacking, but then you have summoning sickness and have to worry about blockers, so there are drawbacks to not playing blue.

    If you stay in Jund colors, more Masked Vandal seems good. Maybe you even want the Dwarven Recruiter + Grist combo? Grist works as a sac outlet too.

  17. #97

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    That looks like a fun concept!

    It looks too ambitious on big mana plays though. Probably cut
    -4 Leyline, -2 Helm, -3 Liliana's Contract, -1 Mark

    From there you may want to reconsider some of the singleton demons. It's cool that most are hardcastable at 2-4 mana, but maybe you don't need so many. The tribal ones that draw cards seem best. Otherwise you can run more Changelings (count as Demon or Dwarf - or Berserker or Cleric). Maybe 1 Demon-Dragon or Artifact Demon as a Magda target. And some sacrifice outlet so you can sacrifice the stolen creature before opponent removes your Demons.

    Cutting blue is tough because Mothdust Changeling is the best enabler for Magda, Brazen Outlaw. You can still get treasures by attacking, but then you have summoning sickness and have to worry about blockers, so there are drawbacks to not playing blue.

    If you stay in Jund colors, more Masked Vandal seems good. Maybe you even want the Dwarven Recruiter + Grist combo? Grist works as a sac outlet too.
    Good points, think I'm underestimating mothdust's importance...and probably want some grist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

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