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Thread: Dwarf Bugs

  1. #21
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    I found this list in my Twitter feed. It's Modern-legal, but it never hurts to get some fresh ideas.

  2. #22
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    What is currently meta relevant that Angels protects you against that Emperion doesn't?
    Is that really worth the risk of being more vulnerable?
    Thassa's Oracle from Doomsday and Oops!
    To a lesser extent, Infect and Grindstone.

    Don't know if it's worth the risk. But once you cut Valiant Changelings, there's no reason to be limited to 8 cmc Emperion. Both have merits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I looked at Shacklegeist but that flops hard if your opponent doesn't have dudes.
    I think you'd want something that doesn't need conditional targets.
    Good point. Shacklegeist is too unreliable.

    Smuggler's Copter? You can crew as many times as you want, at instant speed. Also helps with beatdown and card selection.

    To solve the mana ramp problem, there's also Birchlore Rangers or Springleaf Drum.

  3. #23

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Yeah copter can be good, we need some selection imho.

    Drum is another card to consider bc it doesn't cost colored mana (assuming to be on the rainbow list) and can tap everything : I'm suspicious for cards like geist or ranger bc we often have to tap recruiter and Magda too

    About Ziggurat (that i'm trying in 2x with 3 thalia in the sb) i think you are overstimating the problem in not tapping for urza or pyre: i mean, it's a problem only if we are really low on lands (mostly against heavy denial decks where they could leave us with 2 land and a pyre, yeah). Otherwise it woun't cloug up the mana (if not in multiples)?

    Angel has a nice upside vs Emperor: 7 mana let you cast it t3 with magda+mothdust

    Bloodboiler can be really good with 8 evasive cheap beaters, but gosh that mana is harsh without something like 4 ziggurat

    Edit: a nice screenshots, both g1. Against reanimator i was tempted to concede after his double discard+griselbrand, but he exumed my recruiter, put magda on top and then i kept making sac folder for archon <3 so goood
    Last edited by Memories of the Time; 09-17-2021 at 02:24 PM.

  4. #24
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Drum and Copter sound pretty good, as they're both colorless (works well with the tribal lands) and could serve vital functions for the deck.

    T1 Drum, T2 Magda can enable either another 1-drop + gaining a treasure token, or you can play another 2-drop. That's pretty close to a mana dork.

    The better question is: What to cut to make room for those cards?

  5. #25

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    I keep losing against Dday (found 3 in 2 leagues): they can almost always t2 dday and there are no creature that can really beat that.
    Maybe going on the dual manabase is needed to have flusterstorm.

  6. #26
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Good point about tribal enablers like Birchlore and Shacklegeist. Maybe Drum or Copter is the way to go.

    Lol why did the Reanimator player concede? No outs to Platinum Angel + Foundry tokens for Archon?

    Maybe 2x Ziggurat is OK instead of 4x. Have you not run into clashes yet? How do you sequence your land drops? Do you have fewer copies of Saga too?

    With Ziggurat + Saga, you need 4 lands to make any Constructs. 4 lands isn't easy. That makes you really vulnerable to tempo plays from Waste/Port denying 1-2 Constructs.
    If you have Zig + Saga + 2 rainbow and they Waste a rainbow land and you don't draw a 5th land, you go -2 Constructs. Then Saga sacrifices itself so you're down to 2 lands (Zig + rainbow), not enough to use Pyre, and only 1 land can tap for Retrofitter or noncreatures. A single Wasteland takes you from 4 lands to being manascrewed on 1 mana (+Zig) and counters 2 Constructs.

    I worry about relying on lands like Reflecting Pool and Ancient Ziggurat because the opponent can just Waste your other land and get a "2-for-1" tempo blowout.

  7. #27
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    I found this list in my Twitter feed. It's Modern-legal, but it never hurts to get some fresh ideas.
    Interesting. I've been thinking a lot about Neoform due to the mana efficiency. It's viable if the manabase is cleaned up to duals. But because it's a 2-for-1 and only 1 use, it seems better for getting something busted (e.g. 8-mana with Valiant Changeling).

    Pyre + Valiant only makes Emperion on turn 4
    T1 changeling dork
    T2 Valiant
    T3 Pyre (assuming you can't rely on 4 land drops)
    T4 activate Pyre
    This costs 4 turns and 7 mana. Could be too slow to protect against combo.
    Fair decks can easily disrupt this because you broadcast what you're doing. Lightning Bolt at Valiant after casting Pyre undoes 3 full turns for 1 mana.

    Neoform + Valiant is a full turn faster
    T1 changeling
    T2 Valiant
    T3 Neoform
    That 1 less turn could be a big deal vs combo.
    Vs fair decks you don't have to advertise what you're doing. You can go fair beatdown with Valiant. Once Neoform is on the stack, they can't remove Valiant anymore.


    The minimal colors for Valiant Changeling + Neoform are Bant. Staying 3 colors, that means losing Dwarves + Grist tech and becoming a different changeling deck. But it opens up other tribal synergies.
    I've been thinking about this Wizards build...
    Patron Wizard and Spellstutter Sprite both pitch to FoW and get significantly better with high tribe counts.

    Bant Neoform Wizards


    //Creatures: 28
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Universal Automaton
    3 Unsettled Mariner
    2 Masked Vandal
    3 Vedalken Aethermage
    3 Spellstutter Sprite
    3 Patron Wizard
    1 Mirror Entity
    4 Valiant Changeling
    1 Platinum Emperion

    //Spells: 12
    4 Aether Vial
    4 Daze
    4 Neoform

    //Lands: 20
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    1 Savannah
    1 Island

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Force of Will
    2 Lord of the Unreal
    1 Masked Vandal
    1 Meddling Mage
    1 Deputy of Detention
    1 Aven Mindcensor
    1 Magus of the Moat
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Griselbrand


    Blue duals means you get access to Daze. Daze protects the proactive creature plan, improves the combo matchups, and makes the taxes of Unsettled Mariner and Patron Wizard even better.
    The counters should give the deck legs against disruption and enemy combo decks, at the expense of its own combo explosiveness (no Dwarf cannon).
    Neoform + Aethermage allows a toolbox SB. Aethermage seems slow but costs less than Pyre + activate and isn't card disadvantage. It can also bounce your own creatures in response to death.

    There's some cool stuff there but it loses Dwarves.
    You could also just play Daze in the Dwarf deck. If you go harder on the Magda plan, there's another red creature that makes Treasures

    RUG Dwarves


    //Creatures: 27
    3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Universal Automaton
    2 Duergar Assailant
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 Masked Vandal
    4 Dwarven Recruiter
    1 Realmwalker
    1 Mirror Entity

    //Artifacts: 5
    3 Pyre of Heroes
    1 Coat of Arms
    1 Platinum Emperion / Platinum Angel

    //Spells: 8
    4 Once Upon A Time
    4 Daze

    //Lands: 20
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Island
    1 Mountain


    Both of these deviate from the main plan. Just some ideas to consider. Maybe the original deck is trying to do too many combos at once.

  8. #28
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Phil uploaded his run with the deck.



    The most interesting tech here is probably Steely Resolve in the SB.

  9. #29

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    I keep losing against Dday (found 3 in 2 leagues): they can almost always t2 dday and there are no creature that can really beat that.
    Maybe going on the dual manabase is needed to have flusterstorm.
    I suppose Doomsday doesn't really care about Dryad Militant so I guess you have to go with something else.
    Without mana costs Mindbreak Trap might be an option.
    Deafening Silence would also be an option if you clean up the mana base.

    In general I agree that it seems the deck is trying to do too many things in 60 cards.
    The question is which is the weakest link?

  10. #30
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Vs Doomsday, Platinum is too slow and they can easily beat Warping Wail
    Brain Maggot seems good there. Off Cavern or Vial, they can't stop it with Force or Daze.
    Otherwise Torpor Orb?

  11. #31
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    RUG Dwarves


    //Creatures: 27
    3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Universal Automaton
    2 Duergar Assailant
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 Masked Vandal
    4 Dwarven Recruiter
    1 Realmwalker
    1 Mirror Entity

    //Artifacts: 5
    3 Pyre of Heroes
    1 Coat of Arms
    1 Platinum Emperion / Platinum Angel

    //Spells: 8
    4 Once Upon A Time
    4 Daze

    //Lands: 20
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Island
    1 Mountain


    Both of these deviate from the main plan. Just some ideas to consider. Maybe the original deck is trying to do too many combos at once.
    Grist is one of the core pieces of the deck. I don't think it's correct to lose it.

    The other core piece is Magda. I wonder if it's worth it to throw in some Imperial Recruiters since it can grab all the good stuff (Grist, Magda, Dwarfen Recruiter, Masked Vandal, potential tutor targets like Mirror Entity). Recruiter also works better with Vial and it would decrease the reliance on Pyre. That doesn't necessarily mean that Pyre should be cut, though.

  12. #32
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Grist is only used for 1 of 4 combo lines in the original deck.

    The original deck has 4 combo lines
    1) Valiant Changeling + Pyre -> Platinum Emperion

    2) Mothdust Changeling + Magda -> big artifact or dragon

    3) Dwarven Recruiter into Realmwalker pile (Realmwalker, Magda, Mothdust, 1 cmc dwarves...)

    4) Dwarven Recruiter + Grist combo

    In Anu's stream, he never used the Grist line in any match. It does require the most setup (2-card combo, most mana and tempo, needs to pass the turn).
    With just Magda and Recruiter you can still do #2 and #3.

    If you play all 4 combos it takes 5 colors and a rainbow manabase. If you cut some, you can reduce the manabase and have easier access to anti-combo cards (Daze, Flusterstorm, Thalia, Deafening Silence...).

    If you cut #1, you can cut white.
    #2 needs UR
    #3 needs RUG.
    #4 needs Jund.

    It comes down to what kind of mana you want to run. There's a tradeoff between doing everything (greediest mana + least SB options) and cutting some for better mana + SB.

  13. #33
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Grist can also be used as removal against problematic creatures and planeswalkers. That's my main consideration here. Because otherwise, you're a dog against certain cards. Grist + Vandal gives you a solid coverage against most non-land permanents.

  14. #34
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    True. So maybe it could work with bURG mana. White is the easiest cut. With just Grist in black, you don't need many black sources.

    e.g.
    -4 OUAT
    +4 Grist

    -1 Island
    -1 Mountain
    +1 Underground Sea
    +1 Badlands

    Imperial Recruiter is interesting but 3 mana might be too slow. What about Living Wish? Or Diabolic Intent, Gamble or Worldly Tutor?

  15. #35
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Imperial Recruiter is interesting but 3 mana might be too slow. What about Living Wish? Or Diabolic Intent, Gamble or Worldly Tutor?
    Living Wish is cheaper and gives alot of flexibility, but doesn't work with Vial @3 and a creature type-centric mana base.

  16. #36

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    In terms of rainbow lands, what about:

    Forbidden Orchard
    Gemstone Mine
    Rhystic Cave
    ?

    They got other problems but are not limited to creatures.

  17. #37
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Living Wish is cheaper and gives alot of flexibility, but doesn't work with Vial @3 and a creature type-centric mana base.
    Are those 2 things necessary to make the deck work?
    Something always has to be cut to make room for something new. The relevant question is if it's worth cutting that thing.

    4 colors could work. White is the easiest cut.

    Example

    //Creatures: 27
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Universal Automaton
    4 Changeling Outcast
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 Masked Vandal
    1 Shapesharer
    3 Dwarven Recruiter
    1 Realmwalker
    1 Mirror Entity
    1 Platinum fatty

    //Planeswalker: 3
    3 Grist, the Hunger Tide

    //Artifacts: 6
    4 Aether Vial
    2 Pyre of Heroes

    //Spells: 4
    4 Living Wish

    //Lands: 20
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Taiga
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands

    //Wishboard: 15
    1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
    1 Dwarven Recruiter
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Dwarven Blastminer
    1 Plague Engineer
    1 Lord of the Unreal
    1 Patron Wizard
    1 Endurance
    1 Karakas


    The manabase loses to nonbasic hate but no worse than the 5c manabase does.

    I cut down to 2 Pyre because it's terrible in multiples (see streams from ThrabenU and AnziD) and there's less dependence on it without the Valiant Changeling combo.

    Living Wish curves into the 3 cmc combo pieces (Recruiter, Grist) much more smoothly than Pyre does.
    T2 Wish T3 combo piece (neutral on cards)
    vs
    T2 2 cmc changeling, T3 Pyre, T4 activate Pyre to get 3 drop (-1 card)
    Leaning on Living Wish to find them means there isn't as much need to Pyre 2-cmc changelings, so I dropped the curve a bit. 12 1cmc instead of 8. The 1 cmcs play better with Magda and Realmwalker.
    Overall this seems a little smoother on tempo.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-18-2021 at 03:52 PM.

  18. #38

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Retrofitter Foundry seems strong in a deck chock-full-o-changelings.

  19. #39

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Yesterday tournament hasn't been great, ended 3-3 winning against 2 goblins and ,losing against BUG Witherbloom (won against 2 plague engineer and a ouphe lol, anyway that decks suffer istant speed interaction that we lack), Dragon Stompy (Very close one but he flipped two times fury with squad, otherwise i would have won the first and the third game) and GW Depths (felt unwinnable). I've mulligan'd a lot, often to 5 and once to 4 (but i ended up winning that game lol).

    The list i've played was basically the same i've posted. Our cards felt underwhelming and too slow, recruiter is really sad almost always and can lock ourselves, Magda/mothdust/outcast are horrendous in multiple and useless if not togheter.

    I think the deck can be something but needs a reconstruction. A blue-centered manabase seems necessary for both daze and brainstorm probably, we have too many pieces totally useless by themselves and the risk of both screw and flood is really high. Plus the medium cc isn't really high, so we can support well both these cards (on paper, at least).

  20. #40

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    Yesterday tournament hasn't been great, ended 3-3 winning against 2 goblins and ,losing against BUG Witherbloom (won against 2 plague engineer and a ouphe lol, anyway that decks suffer istant speed interaction that we lack), Dragon Stompy (Very close one but he flipped two times fury with squad, otherwise i would have won the first and the third game) and GW Depths (felt unwinnable). I've mulligan'd a lot, often to 5 and once to 4 (but i ended up winning that game lol).

    The list i've played was basically the same i've posted. Our cards felt underwhelming and too slow, recruiter is really sad almost always and can lock ourselves, Magda/mothdust/outcast are horrendous in multiple and useless if not togheter.

    I think the deck can be something but needs a reconstruction. A blue-centered manabase seems necessary for both daze and brainstorm probably, we have too many pieces totally useless by themselves and the risk of both screw and flood is really high. Plus the medium cc isn't really high, so we can support well both these cards (on paper, at least).
    What do you think hurt you vs "fair" decks?
    Counters or removal?
    Destiny Spinner or Prowling Serpopard might be ok vs counters, the illusion lord vs removal.

    I agree that the deck has a lot of cards required to make it work so there's little room to change things up.
    It is basically like Ichorid where a lot of the deck is useless for most situations.

    What really hurts I think is that the deck can't play Chalice.
    That leaves you very open.
    Last edited by Zoid; 09-20-2021 at 12:48 PM.

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