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Thread: Dwarf Bugs

  1. #41
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    In your list you cut Valiant Changeling right? I wonder how much that hurt the fair beatdown plan in disruptive games. 3/3 double strike is a clock and payoff for the 1/1s. Otherwise you rely a lot on Magda and Grist, or adding another payoff.

    You can't play Chalice, but you can play Daze.

    I think lord effects (e.g. Lord of the Unreal or Master of the Pearl Trident in a blue-centric base) would make the 1/1 changelings better too. Another option is Patron Wizard, even as a 1-of, which would give instant speed stack interaction.

  2. #42

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    The decks surely looks cool, probably, the best thing to do is try our best to make the deck less cool, but more viable.

    Firstly, the deck has an insane amount of straight garbage cards, you should look for the minimun amount of bad cards needed for the engine to work.

    Secondly, the entire recruiter plan seems legacy unplayable, you are supposed to
    - Cast recruiter (1 turn doing nothing)
    - Cast Grist and get a bunch of 1/1

    If grist gets countered this line leaves you with the realmwalker play, which is kinda bad (dies to removal leaving us with a million 1/1s to topdeck).
    Imho, it's quite sad but i would consider cutting entirely recruiter, grist and realmwalker.

    As long as this deck is running 8x 1/1s, we should run 4x retrofitter, it's not as cool but 2 4/4 are winning you the game.

    I would consider to run max amount of Pyre, the card is good to find magda and it's decent/good postboard in most MUs, given that in my idea we would run a bunch of colorless, I would consider sol lands and thorn of amethyst or chrome mox

    I would start with something like this

    // 36 Maindeck
    // 16 Artifact
    4 Pyre of Heroes
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    4 Retrofitter Foundry
    4 Chrome Mox

    // 20 Creature
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 Universal Automaton
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    1 Platinum Emperion
    4 Valiant Changeling
    1 Meddling Mage
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Imperial Recruiter

    UWR Manabase
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  3. #43
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Secondly, the entire recruiter plan seems legacy unplayable, you are supposed to
    - Cast recruiter (1 turn doing nothing)
    - Cast Grist and get a bunch of 1/1
    There are 2 different Recruiter plans.

    1) Grist + Recruiter plan:
    Play Grist
    Play Recruiter -> Put X changelings on top, then a filler Dwarf (Magda?), then another Recruiter
    +1 Grist -> Mill X+1 cards, make X+1 1/1 Insect tokens, add X loyalty counters
    Next turn -5 Grist and attack with Insects


    You can do Grist + Recruiter in the same turn using Vial, Pyre, or treasure mana.
    Otherwise you would get Grist first (probably -2 to kill something), then cast Recruiter next turn and immediately +1 Grist. Recruiter first is bad because it cannot find Grist so you're just doing nothing for a turn and wrecking your draw step for no reason without knowing if Grist will resolve. Grist first, then Recruiter after.
    The bigger problem is it needs 2 3-mana cards and still needs to pass the turn, making this worse than all other A+B combos.


    2) Recruiter + Realmwalker plan:
    Cast/Vial/Pyre out Recruiter -> Stack library as Realmwalker, Magda (if not in play), Mothdust, other 1 cmcs, 2 cmcs, Recruiter
    Next turn draw & cast Realmwalker
    Then from top of library cast Magda, Mothdust, then use them to make treasures and cast as many creatures as possible.


    The two lines are different.
    You definitely DO NOT do the Grist + Recruiter line casting Recruiter first, passing the turn to draw Realmwalker and leaving 1/1s on top without knowing if Grist will stick. As you said, that's suicidal.
    Cast Grist first. IF Grist lives, then you can Recruiter (without Realmwalker) and immediately +1 to mill. If the Grist does not live you don't have to Recruiter lock yourself. You could go for Line 2 or just tutor for a 1-of.


    If you are considering cutting Grist + Recruiter dwarf combo and going down to 3 colors, there's no reason to stick to these colors or dwarf tribal. Patron Wizard is a card.
    Thalia, Guardian of Thraben seems better than Thorn in a UWR deck with Pyre and Chrome Mox.

  4. #44
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    In a 3 color shell, Force+Daze is easier to support than Thorn + sol lands. Sol Lands + 3-color manabase is a mess.

    Also I think if you're going to cut durdly things from the deck, Pyre is one of those cuts. It's card disadvantage and slow, especially without the Sol Land mana.

    Maybe you can play Grixis Dwarf Ninjas instead


    //Creatures: 22
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Changeling Outcast
    2 Universal Automaton
    3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    2 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
    2 Ingenious Infiltrator
    1 Platinum Emperion

    //Spells: 16
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Snuff Out

    //Artifacts: 4
    4 Retrofitter Foundry

    //Lands: 18
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Mountain

    //Sideboard:
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Coat of Arms
    3 Sudden Edict
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Flusterstorm


    You can still cheese Magda into Platinum Emperion, but changelings can also be turned into 4/4s or draw cards as Ninjas.

    Small combo with Yuriko trigger + Brainstorm back Emperion

    Edit: +3 Ragavan, because it would be nutty not to play it in an aggressive deck with Volcanic+Daze and treasure payoffs

    Edit: Dolmen Gate might be a card with Magda.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-20-2021 at 05:46 PM.

  5. #45

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    The decks surely looks cool, probably, the best thing to do is try our best to make the deck less cool, but more viable.

    Firstly, the deck has an insane amount of straight garbage cards, you should look for the minimun amount of bad cards needed for the engine to work.

    Secondly, the entire recruiter plan seems legacy unplayable, you are supposed to
    - Cast recruiter (1 turn doing nothing)
    - Cast Grist and get a bunch of 1/1

    If grist gets countered this line leaves you with the realmwalker play, which is kinda bad (dies to removal leaving us with a million 1/1s to topdeck).
    Imho, it's quite sad but i would consider cutting entirely recruiter, grist and realmwalker.
    Agree on both points, i was thinking that a good plan could be to play 3-4 Grist (if the manabase can support it, obvs), 3-4 tutors (pyre, recruiter) and then only 1-2 Dwarven Recruiter to combo out.
    Without Grist Magda and other dwarves can be a splash, and i don't really know how good it can be. Wouldn't Mox Opal good in your lists with 4 Automation 4 Retrofitter 4 Pyre? Maybe standstill and Urza's Saga too at that point.

    (Yeah, i cut the Valiant but they wouldn't have made any differences in any of the mu anyway)

  6. #46

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Not really the Legacy version, but went 4-1 in a Modern league last night beating 3 Tier 1 Decks, almost had the 5-0.

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3770244#paper

    Take from it what you may, may provide some inspiration for Legacy lists!

  7. #47

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjastill View Post
    Not really the Legacy version, but went 4-1 in a Modern league last night beating 3 Tier 1 Decks, almost had the 5-0.

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3770244#paper

    Take from it what you may, may provide some inspiration for Legacy lists!
    Cool list, but why that dragon over Utvara Hellkite?

  8. #48

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    Cool list, but why that dragon over Utvara Hellkite?
    Utvara Hellkite doesn't kill on turn 3

    Kurrthus give's the "dragons" haste and untaps them so you can have a turn 3 kill

    T1 Mothdust
    T2 Magda - Make 2 Treasure
    T3 Cast Valiant Changeling - Make 3 Treasures, get Dragon, Attack for a bunch.

    its easily the best dragon to get and has won me most games :)

  9. #49

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjastill View Post
    Utvara Hellkite doesn't kill on turn 3

    Kurrthus give's the "dragons" haste and untaps them so you can have a turn 3 kill

    T1 Mothdust
    T2 Magda - Make 2 Treasure
    T3 Cast Valiant Changeling - Make 3 Treasures, get Dragon, Attack for a bunch.

    its easily the best dragon to get and has won me most games :)
    Yeah i mean, it's a combo of 3 cards + no interaction. Without the changeling you have a fat dragon that the oppo can ignore (taking 7 damage) while finding a solution in their turn. Hellkite leave big bodies on the board and it's can be cheated with pyre for changeling. Anyway it's a matter of personal preferences too =)

    Btw another video


  10. #50
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    That's also in Modern, a much less interactive format. Karrthus seems too risky in Legacy.

    Edit: Watched the video. Not impressed.
    High variance hands lead to many mulligans, trying to win with 5-6 cards vs good Legacy decks. One was a mull to 3.
    The manabase gets wrecked by Wasteland.
    Pyre is often a turn too slow to be relevant.
    Easily gets disrupted from doing the thing with brewer's advantage lost.
    Doesn't necessarily win even if you do the thing and cheat out Emperion.

    Losing 1-of Realmwalker meant the deck had no potential winning lines with just Dwarven Recruiter, so it just became a 3-mana Worldly Tutor without Grist. And the Grist + Recruiter line was never used, seemed hard to assemble.

    Duergar Assailant seems much better than Bloodfire Dwarf, except against Elves and Goblins. The 0-mana activation is a big difference and it doesn't kill your own board.

    I'm really not sold on Warping Wail and Spatial Contortion. Even in the matchups where you'd want it, they never did enough (in this stream or others) to actually win games. It's better than having no interaction but they're worse than the equivalent colored spells every other deck is playing. I also think not bringing in Steely Resolve more vs fair decks was a mistake, losing to removal on Magda and Valiant too often.

    Overall I think the deck just lacked interaction and lost to the opponent playing interaction or resolving problems this deck can't deal with. I think the 3-color versions with more interaction seem a lot more promising.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-22-2021 at 12:20 PM.

  11. #51

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    That's also in Modern, a much less interactive format. Karrthus seems too risky in Legacy.

    Edit: Watched the video. Not impressed.
    High variance hands lead to many mulligans, trying to win with 5-6 cards vs good Legacy decks. One was a mull to 3.
    The manabase gets wrecked by Wasteland.
    Pyre is often a turn too slow to be relevant.
    Easily gets disrupted from doing the thing with brewer's advantage lost.
    Doesn't necessarily win even if you do the thing and cheat out Emperion.

    Losing 1-of Realmwalker meant the deck had no potential winning lines with just Dwarven Recruiter, so it just became a 3-mana Worldly Tutor without Grist. And the Grist + Recruiter line was never used, seemed hard to assemble.

    Duergar Assailant seems much better than Bloodfire Dwarf, except against Elves and Goblins. The 0-mana activation is a big difference and it doesn't kill your own board.

    I'm really not sold on Warping Wail and Spatial Contortion. Even in the matchups where you'd want it, they never did enough (in this stream or others) to actually win games. It's better than having no interaction but they're worse than the equivalent colored spells every other deck is playing. I also think not bringing in Steely Resolve more vs fair decks was a mistake, losing to removal on Magda and Valiant too often.

    Overall I think the deck just lacked interaction and lost to the opponent playing interaction or resolving problems this deck can't deal with. I think the 3-color versions with more interaction seem a lot more promising.
    Karrthus is the same amount of risk as really any fatty, the good thing about it is it untaps your 'dragons/dwarf's' making more treasures if it doesn't get stp away. I played a few test matches last night with my legacy version - still have 5c manabase, went up on Imperial Recruiter's, beat Doomsday 4c Control and lost to Storm 1-2.

    List - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4314673#paper

  12. #52
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    I like the Imperial Recruiter package and downgrading Dwarven Recruiter to a 1-of, when you want the combo. Imperial is much better for SB options or just getting Magda. This all reduces variance, reduces durdle, and increases interactive lines you can play.

    I also like that you're on some of the Wizard package with Lord of the Unreal and Spellstutter Sprite. Spellstutter is strong with Changelings.dec and Lord of the Unreal is probably the most efficient Lord for fair beatdown/anti-Plague Engineer.

  13. #53

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I like the Imperial Recruiter package and downgrading Dwarven Recruiter to a 1-of, when you want the combo. Imperial is much better for SB options or just getting Magda. This all reduces variance, reduces durdle, and increases interactive lines you can play.

    I also like that you're on some of the Wizard package with Lord of the Unreal and Spellstutter Sprite. Spellstutter is strong with Changelings.dec and Lord of the Unreal is probably the most efficient Lord for fair beatdown/anti-Plague Engineer.
    Updated List changed a few things - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4314673#paper

    but played some more last night
    2-1 vs GW Depths, and 2-0 vs Cloudpost

    I think Imperial recruiter gives the deck a lot more oopmh, also being able to recruiter for Grist in grindy matches is very nice

  14. #54

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjastill View Post
    Updated List changed a few things - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4314673#paper

    but played some more last night
    2-1 vs GW Depths, and 2-0 vs Cloudpost

    I think Imperial recruiter gives the deck a lot more oopmh, also being able to recruiter for Grist in grindy matches is very nice
    Yeah i've dropped the deck for a bit now but i was also thinking that cutting recruiter to 1 to play the strong one is way better.
    I like your list now (except for the dragon, as said), maybe 10 cc1 drops are too many, and another payoff for them is probably good? Like yuriko

  15. #55

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Memories of the Time View Post
    Yeah i've dropped the deck for a bit now but i was also thinking that cutting recruiter to 1 to play the strong one is way better.
    I like your list now (except for the dragon, as said), maybe 10 cc1 drops are too many, and another payoff for them is probably good? Like yuriko
    I looked at Yuriko last night, worth considering for sure

  16. #56
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjastill View Post
    Updated List changed a few things - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4314673#paper

    but played some more last night
    2-1 vs GW Depths, and 2-0 vs Cloudpost

    I think Imperial recruiter gives the deck a lot more oopmh, also being able to recruiter for Grist in grindy matches is very nice
    What are bad matchups right now? Could the combo matchups like Doomsday be improved by cutting colors so you can add Daze and better SB cards?

    If you do cut colors, it sounds like the Grist + Recruiter combo is the most convoluted and easiest cut.
    The deck could focus on faster synergies like Magda + Mothdust, T2 Valiant beatdown, Pyre+Valiant...

    Jeskai Dwarves


    //Creatures: 30
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Universal Automaton
    2 Duergar Assailant
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 Unsettled Mariner
    1 Lord of the Unreal
    1 Mirror Entity
    4 Imperial Recruiter
    4 Valiant Changeling
    1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
    1 Platinum Emperion

    //Spells: 4
    4 Daze

    //Artifacts: 6
    4 Aether Vial
    2 Pyre of Heroes

    //Lands: 20
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Arid Mesa
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Plains

    //Rough Sideboard: 15
    4 Force of Will
    3 Prismatic Ending
    1 Lord of the Unreal
    1 Meddling Mage
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
    1 Skyclave Apparition
    2 Surgical Extraction

    //Maybeboard:
    Spellstutter Sprite
    Magus of the Moon
    Coat of Arms
    Bolas's Citadel
    Retrofitter Foundry
    Phyrexian Revoker
    Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    Utvara Hellkite
    Patron Wizard


    Or maybe replace Daze with Thalia.
    The taxes from Daze, Mariner and then midgame Patron Wizard all add up.

  17. #57

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    I think that without Thalia and with this manabase, we want 4 brainstorm. The card is simply too good and we have cheap ccs, Daze and lots of pieces that we don't want in multiple as other (unnecessary) reasons to play it.
    I think cutting 2 cc1 drop, 1 recruiter and 1 valiant?

  18. #58

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    What are bad matchups right now? Could the combo matchups like Doomsday be improved by cutting colors so you can add Daze and better SB cards?

    If you do cut colors, it sounds like the Grist + Recruiter combo is the most convoluted and easiest cut.
    The deck could focus on faster synergies like Magda + Mothdust, T2 Valiant beatdown, Pyre+Valiant...

    Jeskai Dwarves


    //Creatures: 30
    4 Mothdust Changeling
    4 Universal Automaton
    2 Duergar Assailant
    4 Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 Unsettled Mariner
    1 Lord of the Unreal
    1 Mirror Entity
    4 Imperial Recruiter
    4 Valiant Changeling
    1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
    1 Platinum Emperion

    //Spells: 4
    4 Daze

    //Artifacts: 6
    4 Aether Vial
    2 Pyre of Heroes

    //Lands: 20
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Arid Mesa
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Plains

    //Rough Sideboard: 15
    4 Force of Will
    3 Prismatic Ending
    1 Lord of the Unreal
    1 Meddling Mage
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
    1 Skyclave Apparition
    2 Surgical Extraction

    //Maybeboard:
    Spellstutter Sprite
    Magus of the Moon
    Coat of Arms
    Bolas's Citadel
    Retrofitter Foundry
    Phyrexian Revoker
    Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    Utvara Hellkite
    Patron Wizard


    Or maybe replace Daze with Thalia.
    The taxes from Daze, Mariner and then midgame Patron Wizard all add up.
    I dont think we need to incorporate daze, playing recruiters allows you to have a bunch of good hate cards to find, was thinking of playing the Torpor Orb hatebear in the SB as well...

    Can also play Mindbreak trap in the sb if you are worried about combo

  19. #59
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    I wonder if Reaper King would be any good in the 75. It can be searched for with Magda, is a Lord for your Changelings and can nuke problematic permanents in conjunction other changelings. Since it has a rainbow casting cost, it could even be hardcast via treasures.

  20. #60
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    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Imperial Recruiter + hatebear is a turn 4 play at the earliest. What about combo decks that can win before that?

    The deck also struggles to get Emperion out before then (turn 3 possible but requires lucksacking into strong hand undisrupted). Interacting with the opponent's turns 1-2 (turn 3 to a lesser extent) seems like the deck's biggest weakness. That could be where Daze helps, because Daze shines the most in that phase of the game. Daze also interacts well with Unsettled Mariner, messing up opponent's tax math. Playing around both costs lots of tempo.

    +4 Brainstorm sounds strong in that configuration. It would increase % of drawing into SB hatebears too. A Brainstorm build only needs 1x fatty, because you can Brainstorm it back if you draw it.

    Mindbreak Trap works against TES and Belcher, but BR Reanimator, Doomsday, All Spells, Hogaak, OmniTell, Depths, Shortcake etc. can all go off around Mindbreak. We could just play more blue creatures and board into FoW instead? Or Flusterstorm or something else.

    Reaper King is interesting, especially in the 5c deck.

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