Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 81 to 92 of 92

Thread: Dwarf Bugs

  1. #81
    Well, Attempted Rationalism at least.
    Rationalist's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    King County
    Posts

    99

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    My point was more that you always need like Magda + Changelings, Reyav + equipment + Rancor, etc.
    There is the Magda plan and the equipment plan which is a different deck which seems just better to me.
    If you draw the wrong combination of cards, you still only have changelings.

    It is common misconception that discard wins vs unfair decks.
    At most it slows them down.
    Your clock is still slow and if you don't draw the right cards it's even slower.
    6 cards is also not that much and Therapy is not reliable, at least the first time you cast it.
    Gotchya, I understand. Thanks.

  2. #82
    Well, Attempted Rationalism at least.
    Rationalist's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    King County
    Posts

    99

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    So are there any versions of the deck that you think have positive unfair MD matchups and/or have a respectable ability to generate card advantage?

  3. #83

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    So are there any versions of the deck that you think have positive unfair MD matchups and/or have a respectable ability to generate card advantage?
    The initial versions of the deck can generate some advantage but rely heavily on drawing the right cards.

    As for beating unfair decks, that's what a big part of this thread is about.
    In a concept that needs so many individual parts to work, I'm not seeing it tbh.

  4. #84
    Well, Attempted Rationalism at least.
    Rationalist's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    King County
    Posts

    99

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    The initial versions of the deck can generate some advantage but rely heavily on drawing the right cards.

    As for beating unfair decks, that's what a big part of this thread is about.
    In a concept that needs so many individual parts to work, I'm not seeing it tbh.
    Unfortunately I don't feel the initial versions did this in any reasonable way, so there's no real "legacy" technology that I'm seeing that we can implement here.

    Here are my thoughts, based on this response:

    Given how much air the deck is priced into at this point (meaning until we start printing some better friends for Magda) I don't think attempting to draw additional cards is a reasonable way to try to fight a game against an opponent with higher density of answers than you have threats. So if the concern is leveraging card advantage in a grindier game, I feel like the better tac may just be to deny the opponent theirs. Spirit of the Labyrinth might be the kind of effect that could help in this regard, and has the side benefit of increasing the opportunity to steal Game 1 off of an unfair opponent by turning off cantrips and Echo of Eons.

    Unfortunately I don't think I can reasonably increase the fair (No Magda on 2) clock of the deck to faster than Turn 4 (un-interacted with), which I think is respectable for what the deck is doing but I appreciate isn't exactly going to straight up race the face combo decks, even with a Thoughtseize, and is slower and less robust than things like the Madness 8-Wala deck are doing. The only other thing I can think to do here is switch the Madga target to Platinum Angel, which as this thread has talked about yes is more vulnerable, but is definitely a more solid lock vs. Combo. I don't think current stock builds of Doomsday, TES, or Reanimator can beat it whatsoever, it's still at the very least hard to answer game 1 for a lot of other unfair decks, and in fair games you can just fetch something else.

    This means Game 1 against combo we would have a hand disruption, a 2-card combo win of our own (but without a way to search it up), a card-draw denial effect in Spirit of the Labyrinth against combos for which that is relevant (Sneak and Show, Doomsday, Elves, High Tide, etc), and a reasonable Turn 4 fair clock since we can often start swinging for 10 turn 3.

    I'm not saying this makes us favored in the matchup, I think you're right that even with all of this we'd still be a dog, but it seems like past that point the marginal cost of increasing the unfair matchup becomes too expensive as it detracts from the built in infrastructure of the deck, and at least personally I'd be willing to accept that as long as the sideboard was reasonable.

    In my case, at least, this would bring me closer to a list that looks like (doing my best to adapt to your input):

    4 - Mothdust Changeling
    4 - Universal Automaton
    4 - Magda, Brazen Outlaw
    4 - Reyav, Master Smith
    4 - Stoneforge Mystic
    4 - Valiant Changeling
    3 - Spirit of the Labyrinth
    1 - Platinum Angel

    4 - Thoughtseize
    4 - Rancor
    1 - Kaldra, Compleat
    1 - Batterskull

    4 - Cavern of Souls
    4 - City of Brass
    4 - Mana Confluence
    3 - Unclaimed Territory
    2 - Reflecting Pool
    1 - Windswept Heath
    1 - Verdant Catacombs
    1 - Scrubland
    1 - Savannah
    1 - Gemstone Mine

    As it stands I'd still be reluctant to move from this list towards other currently suggested ones that I've seen (although I'd be happy to be pitched them more strongly). Based on current experience (although I do need more of that before getting a sufficient sense of things), I don't feel like your assessment of a mix-and-match problem is pervasive in this list beyond that which I believe is unfortunately bought into by the need to reasonably play at least 12 other non-valiant-dwarves besides Magda. Rancor has 8 partners which can lead it to kill in just a couple turns, which puts us up at around 75% to be optimally payed off on turn 3 all else being equal, and in the worse case is a way to get some unimpressive but real value out of "stinkers" that often sticks around or can be recurred while we wait for one of those 8 cards to come up or just give Batterskull some extra power and trample. Reyav has an even higher density of high synergy partners.

    Ultimately the game we're talking about is what are the number of non-functional hands we can draw. While a card like rancor does increase the number of hands we can draw that objectively non-functional (drawing 2 rancors and lands looks pretty bad when you could have drawn 2 independently valid threats), it increases the number of playable hands that include the "2-drop non-Magda dwarf slot" immensely, and also turns Valiant changeling into a 2 turn threat even against a mildly clogged board state. The thing is that I don't think we can reasonably build a deck with Magda, 12 otherwise unplayable dwarves, and then a bunch of strictly independently good cards and compete. I think we need to increase the competitive viability of those 12 slots, and that means at least for the time being that we're somewhat priced into a "plug and play" style deck. (Parts that are designed to make other parts better) Would you agree?

    If you're willing to make that concession, I would make the argument that Reyav is the most competitive non-Valiant dwarf available to us for 2 mana or less. He synergizes with Magda because he essentially doubles the things that Magda searches out, and with the right set of cards he perma-berserks your own creatures, and while Rancor isn't exactly a legacy staple it does strongly synergize with other cards we're already playing.

    So your criticism is right, I don't like the G1 combo matchup and I do have more dead hands than I would like in a perfect world, but I still don't see an off-ramp on the highway of logic that goes

    Magda needs a critical density of Dwarf Friends -> We have to make those Dwarf Friends better -> We are priced into being synergy based -> There's a 2-drop dwarf that synergizes with Magda and regularly produces Turn 4 kills -> We should be playing that Dwarf

    And yes, this path leads me towards Rancor, but it also leads into things like T1 Thoughtseize into an Uncounterable Stone-Forge mystic, so of the paths of which I am currently away this is still the most promising one - although I might certainly be unaware of something you are.

  5. #85
    Member

    Join Date

    Jul 2005
    Location

    Belgium
    Posts

    129

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Magda needs a critical density of Dwarf Friends -> We have to make those Dwarf Friends better -> We are priced into being synergy based -> There's a 2-drop dwarf that synergizes with Magda and regularly produces Turn 4 kills -> We should be playing that Dwarf
    T2 dwarf drops :
    Seven Dwarves : you can have seven of them in your deck and each one makes all the other better.
    Veteran Motorist : nice combo with Smuggler's Copter for card draw and tapped Dwarfs without havin to attack with the dwarves themselves.

    Depala, Pilot Exemplar : dwarf lord + card advantage. Don't understand why this deck doesn't have at least one copy.

    Mothdust -> Magda -> Depala is nice, no ?
    Maybe being more explosive with Petals and refill hand with Depala ?

  6. #86
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,540

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    I found that Platinum Emperion was too easy to just remove against a lot of what I was running up against, while Sundering Titan provides value immediately and can get multiple lands at once. I could easily be wrong on that selection though. (One of the major reasons I'm looking for feedback here is that I haven't had enough time to test this sufficiently yet to figure those details out myself with much confidence.)
    It probably depends on the matchup. Sundering Titan is probably better against multicolor fair decks packed with StPs and multiple land types to hit. Has it been forced to kill your Scrubland and Savannah much?

    Emperion is good against combo (e.g. Storm, Depths, Doomsday). You can "not lose" at instant speed instead of losing, after they blow all their resources to combo fast. Then you get to stall many turns while they have to find an answer to Emperion. Otherwise this deck struggles to interact with combo.

    You've added discard instead for the combo matchup. That works for some combo decks (awkward vs Depths) but does lead to sequencing conflict. G1 vs unknown opponent you really want to play T1 changeling instead of T1 discard. But that means they may get you in game 1 even though you drew your answer. If you did lead on discard to be safe, they might not be combo and that slows down the Magda and Valiant lines by a full turn. If you're going for T1 discard at the expense of T2 Magda/Valiant, why even play this deck instead of another discard deck like Deadguy Ale? So there's some sequencing conflict with the T1 discard main. In other versions we considered Force of Will instead of discard, partly because it leads to smoother sequencing. I see why you don't have Force. But I wonder if maindeck discard is really the solution. Instead, you could try maindeck hatebears and SB discard, only needing to play T1 discard when you know it matters?

    Edit: I meant Platinum Angel instead of Platinum Emperion. Emperion is quite bad vs Thassa's Oracle decks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    So are there any versions of the deck that you think have positive unfair MD matchups and/or have a respectable ability to generate card advantage?
    I'm a bit biased because I posted it, but I think the Grixis Dwarf-Ninja hybrid manages this problem well. Yuriko to draw cards with Changelings. Force of Will to interact with combo without awkward sequencing.

    Retrofitter Foundry is a good way to generate advantage from a board of durdly Changelings (T: become 4/4). It takes fewer pieces than the equipment/aura plan. Easy 4-of.

    Some builds use an Urza's Saga package for multiple purposes:
    -Generate threats
    -Generate card advantage
    -Tutor for combo hate pieces like Pithing Needle, Aether Spellbomb
    -Find Retrofitter

    I don't know that any of this makes the unfair match positive, but they should help.

  7. #87
    Well, Attempted Rationalism at least.
    Rationalist's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    King County
    Posts

    99

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    It probably depends on the matchup. Sundering Titan is probably better against multicolor fair decks packed with StPs and multiple land types to hit. Has it been forced to kill your Scrubland and Savannah much?
    More than I would like at least, yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    You've added discard instead for the combo matchup. That works for some combo decks (awkward vs Depths) but does lead to sequencing conflict.
    I'm pretty sure the build I'm working on right now would get obliterated by depths at least 70% of the time. You're right about the sequencing conflict, but in practice it's never been a problem on the draw leading on Changeling when keeping an opener with both and dictating the turn 2 sequence based on 1st turn identification and whether or not they tap out (if they tap out, I can safely Magda, produce treasure, and then Thoughtseize, which is better than letting the removal against the non-combo opponent hit Magda anyways). It's a valid conceptual concern but in practice it hasn't been overly problematic since you can Magda and Thoughtseize in the same turn 2, and I'd be hesitant to play Magda into open Turn 1 mana without Thoughtseizing them first if I have the option anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    If you're going for T1 discard at the expense of T2 Magda/Valiant, why even play this deck instead of another discard deck like Deadguy Ale?
    Well I'm not claiming you actually should as of yet, but I have a quicker clock, a combo, can cast my cards off of force of will to weaken counter-magic, and I get a 5 color sideboard. It is more than bad cards deadguy ale.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    In other versions we considered Force of Will instead of discard, partly because it leads to smoother sequencing. I see why you don't have Force. But I wonder if maindeck discard is really the solution. Instead, you could try maindeck hatebears and SB discard, only needing to play T1 discard when you know it matters?.
    Okay but removing discard leaves my key creatures more vulnerable to removal. I don't know if I want to weaken all my fair matches to show up my combo match a bit more but still not to fantastic levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I'm a bit biased because I posted it, but I think the Grixis Dwarf-Ninja hybrid manages this problem well. Yuriko to draw cards with Changelings. Force of Will to interact with combo without awkward sequencing.

    Retrofitter Foundry is a good way to generate advantage from a board of durdly Changelings (T: become 4/4). It takes fewer pieces than the equipment/aura plan. Easy 4-of.
    I definitely believe my current list is less competitive than straight-up stock Ninjas, I'm just not convinced that "Dwarf Ninjas" is that much better than Ninjas. It might be, I'm not telling you you're doing it wrong and I haven't tried your list, but while I feel pretty confident is talking about why what I'm doing here is distinct from Deadguy Ale, I'm not actually so sure what problems Ninjas have that Dwarves solve. (Feel free to elaborate on that.)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Some builds use an Urza's Saga package for multiple purposes:
    -Generate threats
    -Generate card advantage
    -Tutor for combo hate pieces like Pithing Needle, Aether Spellbomb
    -Find Retrofitter

    I don't know that any of this makes the unfair match positive, but they should help.
    I've seen the bwangeroo videos and while I respect the cards in the tutor package, I'm apprehensive about taking a deck with these types of mana requirements and adding a colorless land so that I can tutor up situational answers to fast combo on Turn 4 while also adding more air to the deck to fit that tutor package in. If I make it to turn 4, I'd rather just kill them anyways, ideally.

  8. #88
    Well, Attempted Rationalism at least.
    Rationalist's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    King County
    Posts

    99

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    (Plays around with Ninja Dwarves for Science)

    ... Oh, Reaper King destroys lands and is a blue card for FoW.

    Okay, well that's at least one thing I didn't adequately appreciate about the idea. I don't know why that didn't immediately process. Getting to un-deadify drawing a Magda target certainly reduces the cost of the package.

  9. #89

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    I think yours is an interesting build haven't played around with it myself but Reyav seems neat. Giving Kaldra double-strike seems pretty awesome in and of itself, and Rancor on a Valiant Changeling likewise seems great. I'm willing to believe that the aggro draws have a faster goldfish than those of more stock builds.

    However, I feel like it might actually be more susceptible to opposing disruption than at least my Saga-based build? Saga, Foundry, and Grist are all great at grinding opponents out when their plan is mono-removal, whereas equipment + Auras play into removal more. I suppose that's where the discard is supposed to come in but I think at least against blue interactive decks, it's easy for them to just cantrip their way to another removal spell. E.g., trading Thoughtseize for their Swords to Plowshares isn't reliable when they have Expressive Iteration + Ponder in hand as well. Better to overload the removal than try to strip them of it, imo.

    The discard probably does give you better game against combo in g1, though. I'm mostly OK accepting those as bad matchups and rely on the sideboard to shore them up.

    Some minor points:
    - Without Saga or Clock of Omens, isn't Changeling Outcast just better than Universal Automaton in your build?
    - I would guess that Umezawa's Jitte or SoFaI would be better than Grafted Wargear. Getting double triggers off a double-striking creature is the cherry on top.

  10. #90
    Well, Attempted Rationalism at least.
    Rationalist's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    King County
    Posts

    99

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by bwangeroo View Post
    I think yours is an interesting build haven't played around with it myself but Reyav seems neat. Giving Kaldra double-strike seems pretty awesome in and of itself, and Rancor on a Valiant Changeling likewise seems great. I'm willing to believe that the aggro draws have a faster goldfish than those of more stock builds.

    However, I feel like it might actually be more susceptible to opposing disruption than at least my Saga-based build? Saga, Foundry, and Grist are all great at grinding opponents out when their plan is mono-removal, whereas equipment + Auras play into removal more. I suppose that's where the discard is supposed to come in but I think at least against blue interactive decks, it's easy for them to just cantrip their way to another removal spell. E.g., trading Thoughtseize for their Swords to Plowshares isn't reliable when they have Expressive Iteration + Ponder in hand as well. Better to overload the removal than try to strip them of it, imo.
    Oh, that's definitely the case. I've conceded losing G1 to mono-removal and trying to pivot to Steely Resolve out of the board, but obviously that still fails to mono-removal+countermagic. It's probably a lack of respect for UR Delver since I'm playing at Card Kingdom Paper Weeklies, Delver is underrepresented, and I've been generally lucky (probably) against it so far. Thoughtseize and Rancor vs. Urza's Saga is clearly a worse heavy-removal Delver plan though, I can't argue with that.

    Do you feel you have a positive UR Delver matchup?

  11. #91

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Oh, that's definitely the case. I've conceded losing G1 to mono-removal and trying to pivot to Steely Resolve out of the board, but obviously that still fails to mono-removal+countermagic. It's probably a lack of respect for UR Delver since I'm playing at Card Kingdom Paper Weeklies, Delver is underrepresented, and I've been generally lucky (probably) against it so far. Thoughtseize and Rancor vs. Urza's Saga is clearly a worse heavy-removal Delver plan though, I can't argue with that.

    Do you feel you have a positive UR Delver matchup?
    Oh no, UR Delver is awful. Probably one of the worst matchups. They kill you in the air before any of the Grist/Saga/Foundry grindy stuff matters. I've found that, depending on how reliant their build is on DRC/Murktide, if you can mulligan to a good hand + a Leyline of the Void in postboard games, that can help a lot, because then they're basically trying to use Ragavan only to kill you, giving you time to set up with your Grist/Saga/Foundry stuff. But Leyline + otherwise functional hand is still going to be a minority of hands.

    I feel a bit better about "fair blue midrange soup" decks though.

  12. #92
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,540

    Re: Dwarf Bugs

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Well I'm not claiming you actually should as of yet, but I have a quicker clock, a combo, can cast my cards off of force of will to weaken counter-magic, and I get a 5 color sideboard. It is more than bad cards deadguy ale.
    My point was less about comparing you to Deadguy Ale specifically than that T1 Changeling T2 Magda/Valiant is the best thing about Dwarves. Imho if you build in a way that discourages that play pattern, then you risk losing the best reasons to be Dwarves instead of some other random Thoughtseize deck.

    If you find in practice that Thoughtseize doesn't conflict with sequencing (especially if you can go T2 Magda into Thoughtseize), that changes things. I also didn't consider how much you were using discard to clear removal from fair decks, not just to police unfair decks. Getting rid of instant removal does seem important when you depend on untapping with Magda/Stoneforge or can get 2-for-1'd on Rancor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    I definitely believe my current list is less competitive than straight-up stock Ninjas, I'm just not convinced that "Dwarf Ninjas" is that much better than Ninjas. It might be, I'm not telling you you're doing it wrong and I haven't tried your list, but while I feel pretty confident is talking about why what I'm doing here is distinct from Deadguy Ale, I'm not actually so sure what problems Ninjas have that Dwarves solve. (Feel free to elaborate on that.)
    I was just answering your question about whether any other Dwarf builds have respectable ability to generate card advantage and fight unfair decks MD. That was the very origin of my brew: a conscious effort to solve both those problems (as well as the mana denial problem), starting with the Changeling + Dwarf shell. At that point I was also trying to cut Dwarves down to 3 colors for more stable mana and better noncreature SB options. RUG, UWR and RUB were all tried. Ninjas have the best tribal draw engine. I experimented with other tribe lords, but there was no better CA enabler than Yuriko. The other changes weren't necessarily Ninja-related. Retrofitter Foundry is good with Changelings. Force/Daze help the unfair matchups without interfering with sequencing, natural fits in a proactive plan that wants to tap out for creatures on T1 and T2. These changes solve many Dwarf problems, at the expense of some of the fun combo lines. The deck ends up looking a lot like Ninjas as it tries to solve similar problems in the same colors, but it really started as a changeling shell splashing Yuriko/Infiltrator for card draw.

    What makes it different than Ninjas? Magda + Mothdust opens up different lines and allow you to cut Ornithopter (no 0/2 topdecks), since Mothdust can also gain evasion or turn into a 4/4. With the extra 1/1s it's also much better at blocking Ragavan.

    Magda -> Reaper King is not only a fatty lord but turns your changelings into 1-mana Vindicates. That's insane value and destroys permanent types Ninjas normally can't. Ninjitsu returns changelings to hand to reuse... Reaper King also pitches to FoW and -10s them with Yuriko + Brainstorm, so the card has a lot of uses.

    Magda's +1/+0 makes the durdly 1-drops better. Magda's treasures add tempo to do things like play out extra cards drawn or hold untapped mana to threaten tricks.

    Magda's ability can also get Retrofitter or SB artifact pieces. That diversifies some SB options. If you're facing an unfair deck like TES with Defense Grids + Silence/Veil to hate out counterspells, now they have to worry about both counters and permanent-based hate (tutorable with Magda). That taxes their answers since they don't usually run answers to both at the same time.

    You also gain red SB cards like Abrade and Pyroblast, doing things that UB cards don't.

    So it's not strictly worse than Ninjas. I'm not convinced it's necessarily better either, which is why I haven't developed the deck further. But it does do things and offer different lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Oh, that's definitely the case. I've conceded losing G1 to mono-removal and trying to pivot to Steely Resolve out of the board, but obviously that still fails to mono-removal+countermagic. It's probably a lack of respect for UR Delver since I'm playing at Card Kingdom Paper Weeklies, Delver is underrepresented, and I've been generally lucky (probably) against it so far. Thoughtseize and Rancor vs. Urza's Saga is clearly a worse heavy-removal Delver plan though, I can't argue with that.
    What matchups have you tested so far in paper? What is this meta like?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)