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Thread: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

  1. #1
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    [Deck] Jelly, Eggs and Bacon (Aeve Hulk Nic Fit Combo)

    Jelly, Eggs and Bacon




    Introduction

    Jelly, Eggs and Bacon, the spicy breakfast combo you’ve been waiting for (not the Cephalid one).
    The idea for the deck comes from the nostalgia of the old Flash Hulk Legacy decks and the idea of building a green-black based storm deck. What seemed to be a crazy idea at first turned out to be a somewhat solid list, I mean, at least it has a cool name, right?
    Since I do not have much time to spare but want to make progress with this deck, I decided to send it out into the hive mind and share it with you. Please feel free to dissect, test, criticise, destroy the deck, if necessary, but most of all I would appreciate some constructive criticism

    Description

    It is a T2 – T3 instant win combo deck with potential T1 wins, that relies on powering out Protean Hulk (Eggs & Bacon) or Aeve, Progenitor Ooze (Jelly) with fast mana alongside sacrifice effects and offers many synergies between combo, lands, mana, tutors, and disruption.
    Typical play patterns involve early all-in plays or more patient lines like “land go” and starting the combo turn with disruption.
    Important note: This is not only a Protean Hulk deck! The hulk is one of two ways of winning the game. Aeve, Progenitor Ooze wins just as many games and is not intended as “secondary” win option.

    Decklist

    https://deckstats.net/decks/194740/2...eggs-and-bacon

    //Creatures
    1 Protean Hulk
    1 Body Double
    1 Reveillark
    1 Serrated Scorpion
    1 Body Snatcher
    1 Viscera Seer
    1 Carrion Feeder

    1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze

    4 Veteran Explorer

    //Instants
    3 Culling the Weak
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Summoner's Pact

    //Sorceries
    4 Cabal Therapy
    1 Thoughtseize
    4 Traverse the Ulvenwald

    //Artifacts
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Wishclaw Talisman

    \\Enchantments
    1 Necromancy

    //Lands
    4 Forest
    2 Swamp
    1 Bayou
    3 Misty Rainforest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Dryad Arbor

    //Sideboard
    4 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Veil of Summer
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Foundation Breaker
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Boseiju, Who Endures
    1 Massacre
    2 Thoughtseize

    Pros

    • Card synergy is very high as many cards can be used for multiple tasks
    • Both, a deterministic and a de facto win included
    • Protean Hulk combo is more resilient than it might look at first
    • Two colors and many basic lands add some consistency and resilience
    • Can play out lands and keep combo pieces concealed in hand and then win in one final turn without restrictions to, for example, life total or permanents in play
    • Has the potential of winning on T1 while also posing the threat of winning on all later turns
    • Very disruptive discard package


    Cons

    • Protean Hulk combo is weak to graveyard hate, especially the presence of Endurance is a problem
    • Complicated combo and many moving pieces that increase the risk of “losing to yourself” or drawing "dead" cards despite the high card synergy
    • Not a blue deck, thus no Brainstorm or Ponder to smooth out draws


    Card choices

    Combo



    Lands



    Mana



    Sacrifice effects



    Tutors



    Protection



    Utility

    • Necromancy – as a 1-off enables faster Protean Hulk lines. Can be tutored with Wishclaw Talisman and in combination with Lion’s Eye Diamond and Hulk or tutor in hand gets you to magic Christmas wonderland. Be aware that you want to cast it at a time you could only cast instants, which can be tricky if you have to produce mana with rituals or LED in your main phase, for example to get Wishclaw into play or play discard.


    Sideboard



    Videos

    Bryant Cook plays the deck on the "The EPIC Storm" YouTube channel (Donation deck) – One of the earlier draft lists, not really optimized and the sideboard is a mess

    Best regards
    eatbasics



    Edits

    • 20.12.2021: - 1 Body Double, + 1 Body Snatcher: Opens some interesting lines while replacing the second Body Double in terms of functionality. / Some layout changes and typo corrections. / Changed name from "Jelly, Eggs & Bacon" to "Jelly, Eggs and Bacon".
    • 23.12.2021: Maindeck: - 1 Elvish Spirit Guide, + 1 Dark Ritual (Elvish Spirit Guide seems to be the worst acceleration but still valuable for Summoner's Pact), Sideboard: - 1 Endurance, + 1 Foundation Breaker (Artifact and Enchantment hate seems to be more imporant and Breaker fits well into the shell), added Worldly Tutor to the Maybeboard (1 or 2 in the maindeck could add more flexibility and consistency)
    • 28.12.2021: Maindeck: - Elvish Spirit Guide, + 1 Diabolic Intent (to add more sarifice effects/tutors/sorceries all in one card), Maybeboard: + Witch's Oven (probably too cute)
    • 05.12.2021: After putting more thought into sideboarding I had to rearrange some cards: Maindeck: - Elvish Spirit Guide, - Diabolic Intent, + 2 Abundant Harvest (Elvish Spirit Guide was the worst fast mana and multiple Summoner's Pact are better used to grab Explorer, Aeve, or Hulk, thus, I cut all of them), Sideboard: New Sideboard, see Sideboard section for explanations.
    • 09.01.2022: Redesigned sideboard based on sideboard mapping (sideboard guide will follow soon). Removed sections "Maybeboard", "Tricks", "Not included" and "Open thoughts" because the information was out-dated, and the primer is now clearer.
    • 19.01.2022: Reverted to 1 Elvish Spirit Guide and 1 Diabolic Intent main, as Abundant Harvest turned out to be not good. Changed Wilt to Assassin's Trophy in the sideboard for more utility. Added a "Videos" section.
    • 28.01.2022: Adapted Heart-Piercer Manticore hulk package for the main deck. Testing Squandered Resources.
    • 15.02.2022: Returned to the Cauldron Familiar hulk package because I trimmed down to 1 Carrion Feeder and 1 Viscera Seer. Both sacrifice outlets were bad when drawn, even with Veteran Explorer it "just" ramps. Instead, I added Village Rites which is great with Veteran Explorer and adds velocity to the deck. In this regard I added Dryad Arbor to increase sacrifice fodder and Arbor is great as it is fetch and tutor-able. Removed Abundant Harvest, it underperformed.
    • 22.02.2022: Replaced Prismatic Vista with Misty Rainforest because of Dryad Arbor is now in the deck and Bayou helps with T1 black mana if necessary.
    • 12.03.2022: Trimmed Dark Ritual from 4 to 3. Increase Thoughtseize main from 2 to 3. Adjusted sideboard accordingly.
    • 15.04.2022: Added Wishclaw Talisman! Changed Sideboard.
    • 09.05.2022: Re-worked the primer and introduced some changes to the list. (Hello Serrated Scorpion, welcome to the party!)
    • 02.06.2022: Introduced some changes to main deck and many changes to the sideboard after some testing at a local tournament (46 players). Diabolic Intent is back in the mix!
    • 16.08.2022: stoppped adding edit notes for quite some time now, will start again with the next changes
    Last edited by eatbasics; 08-16-2022 at 03:51 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    Sideboard guide - Draft (work in progress)

    (this was made with 4 Culling the Weak in deck, but the current list runs just 3. I have to rethink what that means for the boarding plan ...)
    (general remark: if we board out mana, is there a hierarchy or are all equal? for example petal < dark rit < LED

    Ux Tempo (UR Delver, …)
    6 in: +4 Carpet of Flowers, +2 Veil of Summer
    6 out: -1 Lion’s Eye Diamond, -2 Dark Ritual, -1 Lotus Petal, -2 TBD (is Veil even good against Tempo?)

    Ux Control (Jeskai Control, 4C Control, Grixis Control, …)
    9 in: +4 Carpet of Flowers, +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Veil of Summer, +1 Boseiju, Who Endures
    9 out: -2 Lion’s Eye Diamond, -2 Dark Ritual, -2 Lotus Petal, -1 Misty Rainforest, -2 TBD

    Combo (Show and Tell, ANT, TES, Doomsday, Reanimator, …)
    3 in: +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Veil of Summer (not against TES)
    3 out: -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Dark Ritual, -1 Lion’s Eye Diamond (maybe better to board out something like Traverse instead of fast mana because we only need 1 tutor effect in hand against most fast combo)

    Prison and Lands (Mono G Cloudpost, Red Prison, Eldrazi, Lands, 8-Mulch, x Depths)
    5 in: +1 Foundation Breaker, +2 Assassin’s Trophy, +1 Boseiju, Who Endures
    5 out: -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Misty Rainforest, -2 TBD

    Elves
    4 in: +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Assassin’s Trophy, +1 Boseiju, Who Endures
    4 out: -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Dark Ritual, -1 Lion’s Eye Diamond, -1 Misty Rainforest (maybe better to board out some other effects instead of mana)

    Death and Taxes
    6 in: +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Assassin’s Trophy, +1 Foundation Breaker, +1 Massacre, +1 Boseiju, Who Endures
    6 out: -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Dark Ritual, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Misty Rainforest, -2 TBD

    8-Cast
    5 in: +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Veil of Summer, +1 Boseiju, Who Endures
    5 out: -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Dark Ritual, -1 Lion’s Eye Diamond, -1 Culling the Weak, -1 Misty Rainforest
    Last edited by eatbasics; 08-16-2022 at 04:27 AM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    Since you're already in GB colors and building around Hulk combo, have you ever considered Necromancy as an alternate Hulk-enabler? Then you don't always need to ramp into big mana to win.

  4. #4

    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    I’m confused how we are getting the death trigger of hulk. Is the primary plan just ritualling into it and then casting cabal therapy? peer into the abyss seems like a way better payoff for 7 mana and has more overlap with ooze.

    If the main plan is putting it in the gy and then copying it why are we not running entomb?

    Is there a way to incorporate LED? It seems like you could do something neat with Buried Alive and Priest of Fell Rites

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    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    That's why I suggested Necromancy. Necromancy gets you a Hulk death trigger, without needing to ramp to 7 mana + sac outlet.

    You can get it to the graveyard in OP's list with Pact/Traverse + LED/Therapy, although Entomb is easier. You can also just Entomb Hulk and then cast Body Double if you have Therapy in GY or the sac outlet in play.

    Hulk combo already loses to GY hate so you aren't risking much by using a GY enabler.

    If you're ramping to 7, then yeah 4x Peer Into the Abyss with 1 Tendrils of Agony in the 75 is a more compact wincon that also doesn't lose to grave hate and works with Ooze.

    Edit: NicFitStorm?


    //Creatures: 13
    4 Phyrexian Walker
    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 Xantid Swarm
    1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze

    //Spells: 23
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Culling the Weak
    3 Wishclaw Talisman
    3 Diabolic Intent
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Peer Into The Abyss

    //Mana: 24
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Mox Opal
    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Bayou
    2 Forest
    2 Swamp

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Abrupt Decay
    3 Veil of Summer
    2 City of Solitude

    etc

    With a few tweaks it's not hard to run Peer here. Phyrexian Walker + Veteran Explorer do a great job of blocking Monke.
    Last edited by FTW; 12-17-2021 at 01:11 PM.

  6. #6
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    Thank you both for the feedback, I really appreciate it!

    The method to the madness, the main idea behind the deck and why I chose Protean Hulk as win option is the card synergy I tried to put emphasis on in the primer.

    For example, Summoner's Pact gets Protean Hulk, the main win option, Aeve, Progenitor Ooze, the other win option, as well as Veteran Explorer and Elvish Spirit Guide for mana.
    Other cards are similar, Viscera Seer is part of the combo, as well as an initial sacrifice effect for Protean Hulk (and also some sort of card selection if needed).
    Culling the Weak is a ritual and a sacrifice effect for Veteran Explorer and Protean Hulk, and so on.

    I thought about the graveyard route but came to the conclusion, that if you are running Entomb and some sort of reanimation effects, you are better of running a Griselbrand style reanimator deck.
    By the way, Body Double into Protean Hulk in graveyard was just mentioned as a "trick", it is not the main strategy.

    The storm approach is nice, in fact, Veteran Explorer or Nic Fit Storm was my first draft of the deck, but it is now a different deck.
    I was fascinated by the cheap tutors and their synergy in my list. In your proposed list you would have to run clunky 2 cmc tutors, and again, the question comes up if a dedicated Peer into the Abyss deck like TES would not just perform better.

    What I liked is the different approach the deck offers. While your suggestions are great, the game plan is kind-of already realized by more dedicated and tuned decks.

    If this different approach is worth it, that's what I would like to find out, but I am also open to discuss other directions this deck could go, so keep up the great feedback :)

  7. #7

    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    If you want to be a summoners pact & cull the meek storm deck there already exists Spanish Inquisition. Updated list here:

    The win con is more compact and synergizes with ooze (tendrils). You don’t lose to graveyard hate, or removal, or torpor orb. Blex, vexing pest is a better pact target than hulk since it costs 4 black mana instead of 7 green in a ritual deck. You are a true engine deck (mana plus card draw) rather than a 3 card combo.

    If you use the gy too much you just become bad worldgorger dragon combo or bad oops. You could easily cut the charbeltchers, infernals, and ill gotten gains for basics, vet explorer and some oozes to make it quite close to your original deck.

  8. #8
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    If you're set to build around Protean Hulk instead of some other engine like Peer, you're committed to the graveyard. Whether you hardcast Hulk or cheat it with Entomb + Necromancy, either way the Hulk wincon loses to most graveyard hate. You're not getting Hulk wins through graveyard hate. You'd have to either find answers to their hate (discard, Trophy) or win with an alternate line like Ooze. Otherwise Hulk loses to GY hate no matter how you enable it. So does it matter if the Hulk enabler also uses the grave? If they blow Endurance/Surgical to prevent Necromancy, that costs you fewer resources than if you hardcast and they use their hate on the combo engine... Something to think about for Hulk builds.
    Edit: You could use the 8x Phyrexian Marauder 4x Disciple of the Vault wincon to be less vulnerable to GY hate, although that takes up more deck space. But the 0cmcs do work well with storm.

    You could also cheat out Hulk with Through the Breach effects. Anything to reduce the cost & also give a death trigger. Needing 7 mana + sac outlet will not be easy, and easy for opponent to disrupt. If you can reduce the requirements to go off, Hulk is more likely to work.

    I agree on not wanting to be a worse version of TES or Reanimator, and to contribute something unique to the meta. If you go the Peer route, what you could do differently than TES, ANT or SI is have the Culling the Weak/Veteran Explorer ramp engine. That's unique design space to explore.

    The 2 color basic-heavy manabase is more stable than theirs and you can ramp into Peer even more explosively than Rite of Flame (TES) or Cabal Ritual (ANT) can. That extra ramp power means you could build more around Peer Into the Abyss, instead of having it as some backup Burning Wish target. You don't need to run Ad Nauseam (the main engine of TES and ANT), which means you don't care about printed CMC and can just run 4x Peer maindeck for more consistency. Skipping Ad Nauseam opens up other options like ESG and lets you take more hits from creatures in the setup phase, since life total doesn't matter as much. You also don't need Echo of Eons, which is high-variance and forces cards like Orim's Chant/Defense Grid/Veil of Summer so opponent can't just beat you with their fresh 7. So even though there is a lot of overlap with existing Tier storm archetypes, you can skip some of their fundamental deck-construction downsides by focusing on Peer, which you have easier access to because of your mana engine. If you're building to ramp to 7 mana in BG, this seems like the way to go.

    Spanish Inquisition is a good rough starting point, although it's very all-in (ESG, Summoner's Pact, Land Grant). Once you cut Belcher, you don't need to be a 2 land glass-cannon deck trying to go off all at once. -Belcher +Veteran Explorer encourages a higher-land build. You can afford to take your time. Cutting back on Infernals/Cruel Bargain also means you don't need as high "gas" density and initial mana density, because you don't rely on only 4 cards to keep you going. So it's a good shell to explore Culling the Weak storm, but a lot of those slots could be adjusted if you use Peer or some other engine instead.

    As you gain the option to slow down with Explorer ramp, Summoner's Pact becomes a lot riskier. SI needs it, but otherwise even Belcher avoids it. "Lose the game" is a significant downside. With Summoner's Pact on the stack, you lose 100% of games to Orim's Chant/Silence. Even responding with Veil of Summer (fogging Tendrils) means you can't win this turn (Tendrils next turn, or Ooze this turn and pass), another auto-loss to Pact. There are a ton of other interactions like double Daze, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce that could throw off your combo math so you can't win this turn. With Pact, that's an auto-loss. With any other tutor, you're slowed down but could still rebuild to go off later. There are a lot of downsides to running Pact if you don't absolutely have to.

  9. #9
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    Or we can even find a better compact Hulk package than the old Body Double-Lark thing. Better creatures have been printed since. Maybe you can have less graveyard reliance.

    Body Double + Viscera Seer -> Melira, Sylvok Outcast+Murderous Redcap is infinite damage. If Seer is already in play, you can skip Body Double and go straight for Melira + Redcap. It's still disrupted by GY hate though.

    Karmic Guide + Viscera Seer -> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker -> Pestermite is infinite haste flying tokens, although it loses to combat step denial. The advantage of this package is you can also just Buried Alive Guide+Kiki+Pestermite and win by reanimating Guide, without Hulk. That has some synergy if you use a reanimation enabler for Hulk.

    Grand Architect + Pili-Pala + Torch Courier is infinite colored mana, although you'd need something in hand to win with that mana. But it does dodge all GY hate!

    Vizier of Remedies + Devoted Druid + Torch Courier is infinite green mana. No graveyard reliance! It has no win-con either, but still has room for 1 cmc.


    Edit: Heliod, Sun-Crowned + Walking Ballista + Simic Initiate + Simic Initiate + Ollenbock Escort
    5-card Hulk package to deal infinite damage at instant speed. No graveyard reliance.
    Last edited by FTW; 12-17-2021 at 07:02 PM.

  10. #10

    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Or we can even find a better compact Hulk package than the old Body Double-Lark thing. Better creatures have been printed since. Maybe you can have less graveyard reliance.

    Body Double + Viscera Seer -> Melira, Sylvok Outcast+Murderous Redcap is infinite damage. If Seer is already in play, you can skip Body Double and go straight for Melira + Redcap. It's still disrupted by GY hate though.

    Karmic Guide + Viscera Seer -> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker -> Pestermite is infinite haste flying tokens, although it loses to combat step denial. The advantage of this package is you can also just Buried Alive Guide+Kiki+Pestermite and win by reanimating Guide, without Hulk. That has some synergy if you use a reanimation enabler for Hulk.

    Grand Architect + Pili-Pala + Torch Courier is infinite colored mana, although you'd need something in hand to win with that mana. But it does dodge all GY hate!

    Vizier of Remedies + Devoted Druid + Torch Courier is infinite green mana. No graveyard reliance! It has no win-con either, but still has room for 1 cmc.


    Edit: Heliod, Sun-Crowned + Walking Ballista + Simic Initiate + Simic Initiate + Ollenbock Escort
    5-card Hulk package to deal infinite damage at instant speed. No graveyard reliance.
    4 Virulent Sliver + 1 Heart Sliver.

    Still considerable fast vs removal and can technically win hard cast.

  11. #11
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs & Bacon

    It is true that the current Hulk stack is graveyard reliant, but that does not imply that running a graveyard-based engine would be better since you are using the graveyard anyway.
    I am wondering if it really reduces the requirements. After all, putting Hulk in the graveyard is either 1 card (Entomb) or 2 cards (Hulk in hand and looting/discard) adding the reanimation spell it is still a 2-3 card combo. If we would rely on Necromancy or similar effects, a Swords to Plowshare would get us in addition to counter spells, and if we use regular reanimation spells, we need an additional card for a sacrifice effect, making it 3-4 cards, in total.
    In the current list, one requirement is to generate a lot of mana, which is easy since most of the deck is designed to produce mana. Culling the Weak is on double duty as sacrifice effect, and Summoner's Pact can get mana in form of Elvish Spirit Guide. The same is true to some extent true for the other cards and requirements in the deck, such as of finding Hulk and sacrificing it.
    Because of that, it is hard to determine the exact number of cards need. It is not just A + B, but a more complicated formula. The graveyard-based engine would be a classic A + B combo and additional copies of one part are not contributing towards the win besides acting as a back up when the first attempt is countered/handled.

    Regarding the Hulk combo, I went through many Hulk stack options and chose this specific one because it fits nice into the shell with Viscera Seer and Carrion Feeder both working well with Veteran Explorer and as actual part of the combo. Cauldron Familiar is cast-able and thus can be sacrificed to Culling the Weak and Cabal Therapy, and the combo in general is resistant to removal and not dead once you draw a piece of the combo. The price for all this is of course the graveyard reliance, which is not a KO criterion in my opinion, even though it is a hard concession.
    Also, once Hulk is in play you do not have to go for the kill right away. Like it was mentioned before, it is not an all-in or bust style of deck, Spanish Inquisition is. Thus, I would also disagree on comparing the deck to Spanish Inquisition. They sure share some common elements, but the engine, approach, playstyle etc. is way different in my opinion.
    If I had to chose a different Hulk that avoids the graveyard, I would settle for Thassa's Oracle, Cephalid Illusionist, Nomads en-Kor, which I also featured in the primer. It is the cleanest kill but is miserable when one piece of the stack is drawn. Running multiples makes it even more bit clunky, since the cards do not contribute to the rest of the deck in a meaningful way and can be consider as “killer slots”.

    Regarding dropping Hulk entirely for Peer into the Abyss, I would say that the deck structure would have to change drastically, like already mentioned above. Most importantly, the tutors. With that said, drawing Peer naturally and casting it (LED does not work in this case) it is 7 mana, but when tutoring for it and playing it on the same turn, it is 7 + 1 (with Wishclaw in play), 7 + 2 (with Infernal and co.), or 7 + 3 (Wishclaw in hand), which is more or equal to Hulk (7) + Summoner’s Pact (0) / Traverse (1) + sacrifice effect (0 or 1, in total 7 - 9). Thus, at least regarding mana, I do not see a huge benefit of running Peer over Hulk.

    These are all valid points to consider and helped a lot for re-evaluating the list. I am currently unsure if I should go into a different direction, for example porting the Explorer + Culling to another shell like proposed above, and leaving at least the Eggs & Bacon behind. However, I am still positive that the current list offers something that most other decks do not.
    Thank you for the input 😊

  12. #12
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    I definitely like what you're trying to do here. It's something unique that doesn't exist in Legacy yet. But perhaps it would be more viable if you extract some of the ideas and put them into a different shell: Hulk combo enabled a different way, or abuse Veteran Explorer+Culling the Weak ramp for some other combo finish.

    For Hulk, are there any better piles than the ones listed in the OP? Most of those are tech from 2008 Hulk era. So many new creatures have been printed since. There must surely be something in the Legacy card pool, compact and not graveyard dependent. The old sliver kill relies on the combat step and is easily disrupted by removal on Heart Sliver or multiple blockers, so that one seems worse than the instant-speed infinite kills and alternate wins.

    Does 1-of Body Snatcher improve the viability of other piles like Thassa's Oracle? It was an old trick used by other piles if a combo piece was stuck in hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    I am wondering if it really reduces the requirements. After all, putting Hulk in the graveyard is either 1 card (Entomb) or 2 cards (Hulk in hand and looting/discard) adding the reanimation spell it is still a 2-3 card combo. If we would rely on Necromancy or similar effects, a Swords to Plowshare would get us in addition to counter spells, and if we use regular reanimation spells, we need an additional card for a sacrifice effect, making it 3-4 cards, in total. In the current list, one requirement is to generate a lot of mana, which is easy since most of the deck is designed to produce mana. Culling the Weak is on double duty as sacrifice effect, and Summoner's Pact can get mana in form of Elvish Spirit Guide. The same is true to some extent true for the other cards and requirements in the deck, such as of finding Hulk and sacrificing it.
    Because of that, it is hard to determine the exact number of cards need. It is not just A + B, but a more complicated formula. The graveyard-based engine would be a classic A + B combo and additional copies of one part are not contributing towards the win besides acting as a back up when the first attempt is countered/handled.
    Hulk + 7-mana + sac outlet is also a lot of resources to go off.
    With your "ritual" acceleration (Ritual, Culling, Petal, ESG, Pact, LED), it takes multiple cards to get to 7 mana. Then you also need a sacrifice outlet. So that's also a multi-card combo, risking 4-for-1 to a counter. If your sac outlet is a creature, it's disrupted as easily by StP (kill Viscera Seer with Hulk on stack, now no death trigger). It's also very all-in. If you accelerate with LED (with tutor on stack), you have 0 hand left. If you used Pact, you risk "lose the game" to any disruption.

    Necromancy + Entomb is just a 2-card combo. You could do this less efficiently with more cards (non-sacrificing reanimate, or tutor+self-discard), but you don't have to make life hard on yourself. Looting would replace Hulk with another card, so it's not quite as bad as a 3-card combo. If you discard Hulk with Cabal Therapy, you also gain a sacrifice outlet to immediately trigger Hulk before opponent gets priority to StP.

    The Necromancy reanimation strategy is a thing that was done after Flash was banned. It's obviously not as strong as Flash, but it's mana-efficient and has a self-contained death trigger. See below decks by Patrick Chapin and others:
    https://articles.starcitygames.com/a...credible-hulk/
    https://articles.starcitygames.com/a...ing-treasures/
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/...mbo-2015-11-21

    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    It is true that the current Hulk stack is graveyard reliant, but that does not imply that running a graveyard-based engine would be better since you are using the graveyard anyway.
    Not better, just not worse either. You lose to the same hate either way. Normally adding a graveyard enabler to a deck opens up new vulnerabilities to hate (major downside), but in this case it wouldn't if your combo kill uses the GY too.

    The advantages come from the mana savings and not needing all-in cards. Spending less mana and going less all-in both mean you can recover better from disruption. Low cmc A+B combos are very viable in Legacy. Casting 7-mana spells usually isn't (unless that card is a Draw20). The Necromancy line might not be good enough either, but it does have advantages.

    There are also other possible enablers like Through the Breach or Birthing Pod effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    Regarding dropping Hulk entirely for Peer into the Abyss, I would say that the deck structure would have to change drastically, like already mentioned above. Most importantly, the tutors. With that said, drawing Peer naturally and casting it (LED does not work in this case) it is 7 mana, but when tutoring for it and playing it on the same turn, it is 7 + 1 (with Wishclaw in play), 7 + 2 (with Infernal and co.), or 7 + 3 (Wishclaw in hand), which is more or equal to Hulk (7) + Summoner’s Pact (0) / Traverse (1) + sacrifice effect (0 or 1, in total 7 - 9). Thus, at least regarding mana, I do not see a huge benefit of running Peer over Hulk.
    Peer in hand is just 7 mana with non-LED acceleration (Culling+Explorer, Ritual, etc). With LED you need a tutor and more mana, but that's just as true for TES or ANT. In comparison, this deck has more ramp than them to hit those 8-10 mana lines (Culling, Explorer) and has the 7-mana line without LED. In other words, your shell should have an easier time casting Peer than TES and ANT do. And Peer is good in those decks. If you have less mana, you can always tutor for Ooze!

    Peer doesn't work with your tutors, but I think the tutors are the worst part of your deck.
    1 )Summoner's Pact is cheap but also has high risk of "lose the game" when you're not using it to go off on turn 0 or goldfishing. There's no need to run it if you're not "Glass Cannon turn 1 or bust". It's also much worse at finding answers to hate (common use of tutors postboard), since it can only find green creatures and you must win the same turn.

    2) Traverse the Ulvenwald needs Delirium, which will take a few turns to enable. It could be even slower than Wishclaw (which is also just 1 mana on the combo turn, after prior setup). Since it's also disrupted by graveyard hate, your tutor can't be relied on to help find answers to hate.

    These tutors don't see much play in other Legacy decks, for a reason. Do you need them when you're already in the right colors for Diabolic Intent, Infernal Tutor, Wishclaw Talisman, and Worldly Tutor?

  13. #13
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    For Hulk, are there any better piles than the ones listed in the OP? Most of those are tech from 2008 Hulk era. So many new creatures have been printed since. There must surely be something in the Legacy card pool, compact and not graveyard dependent. The old sliver kill relies on the combat step and is easily disrupted by removal on Heart Sliver or multiple blockers, so that one seems worse than the instant-speed infinite kills and alternate wins.
    I was searching extensively and have not found a new or better pile yet :(

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Does 1-of Body Snatcher improve the viability of other piles like Thassa's Oracle? It was an old trick used by other piles if a combo piece was stuck in hand.
    I just added Body Snatcher yesterday to the list, it is cool that you had the same idea. It actually improves the current pile and opens up interesting lines as an enabler card. The card is amazing and fits well into the shell.
    I do not think that it helps the downside of the Thassa's Oracle pile, because to main argument for it was that it dodges removal because all pieces enter at the same time, and graveyard hate. Both would be a problem once one piece of the pile is stuck in hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Hulk + 7-mana + sac outlet is also a lot of resources to go off.
    With your "ritual" acceleration (Ritual, Culling, Petal, ESG, Pact, LED), it takes multiple cards to get to 7 mana. Then you also need a sacrifice outlet. So that's also a multi-card combo, risking 4-for-1 to a counter. If your sac outlet is a creature, it's disrupted as easily by StP (kill Viscera Seer with Hulk on stack, now no death trigger). It's also very all-in. If you accelerate with LED (with tutor on stack), you have 0 hand left. If you used Pact, you risk "lose the game" to any disruption.

    Necromancy + Entomb is just a 2-card combo. You could do this less efficiently with more cards (non-sacrificing reanimate, or tutor+self-discard), but you don't have to make life hard on yourself. Looting would replace Hulk with another card, so it's not quite as bad as a 3-card combo. If you discard Hulk with Cabal Therapy, you also gain a sacrifice outlet to immediately trigger Hulk before opponent gets priority to StP.
    If we want to accelerate into Necromancy before T3 we would have to add some cards to the equation as well, even more so if you want to do both during the same turn. I really like the Necromancy idea and have been tinkering with it in the past as well, but the KO criterion for me is actually that it follows the same plan as reanimator but with worse cards, which is something I want to avoid. If the Necromancy plan is actually better than my current list, I would probably discard the deck instead and play reanimtor, but it is hard to compare the two approaches directly with another.

    Would you come to the same conclusion or am I being too ignorant saying "it would just be a worse XY.dec, we should discard it"?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Not better, just not worse either. You lose to the same hate either way. Normally adding a graveyard enabler to a deck opens up new vulnerabilities to hate (major downside), but in this case it wouldn't if your combo kill uses the GY too.

    The advantages come from the mana savings and not needing all-in cards. Spending less mana and going less all-in both mean you can recover better from disruption. Low cmc A+B combos are very viable in Legacy. Casting 7-mana spells usually isn't (unless that card is a Draw20). The Necromancy line might not be good enough either, but it does have advantages.

    There are also other possible enablers like Through the Breach or Birthing Pod effects.
    I agree. There is a lot of space to explore with Hulk if the only intention is to make Hulk work and it could require less resources. However, this deck offers also some sweet Jelly in Aeve, Progenitor Ooze :) which acts as a different and sometimes faster angle of attack. The combination of these two is what I like about the current list.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Peer in hand is just 7 mana with non-LED acceleration (Culling+Explorer, Ritual, etc). With LED you need a tutor and more mana, but that's just as true for TES or ANT. In comparison, this deck has more ramp than them to hit those 8-10 mana lines (Culling, Explorer) and has the 7-mana line without LED. In other words, your shell should have an easier time casting Peer than TES and ANT do. And Peer is good in those decks. If you have less mana, you can always tutor for Ooze!

    Peer doesn't work with your tutors, but I think the tutors are the worst part of your deck.
    1 )Summoner's Pact is cheap but also has high risk of "lose the game" when you're not using it to go off on turn 0 or goldfishing. There's no need to run it if you're not "Glass Cannon turn 1 or bust". It's also much worse at finding answers to hate (common use of tutors postboard), since it can only find green creatures and you must win the same turn.

    2) Traverse the Ulvenwald needs Delirium, which will take a few turns to enable. It could be even slower than Wishclaw (which is also just 1 mana on the combo turn, after prior setup). Since it's also disrupted by graveyard hate, your tutor can't be relied on to help find answers to hate.

    These tutors don't see much play in other Legacy decks, for a reason. Do you need them when you're already in the right colors for Diabolic Intent, Infernal Tutor, Wishclaw Talisman, and Worldly Tutor?
    It is funny because I think the tutors are the best part of the deck :D It is always interesting to see how different people evaluate cards differently. This helps me a lot.
    Summoner's Pact works so great in the shell because you can use it for non-instant kills on T2 with the help of Veteran Explorer, while on the other hand Summoner's Pact can also get Veteran Explorer for fast acceleration with Culling the Weak. It also enables T2 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze lines with only 5+ mana available, for example with this starting hand: Land, Land, Explorer, Dark Ritual, LED, Cabal Therapy, Summoner's Pact and many other combinations.
    This is not possible with the usual black tutors we would have to use if we go for Peer as win option.

    Traverse the Ulvenwald is also used flexible for two things: Smoothing out land drops, since we are already running basics for Veteran Explorer and as cost efficient tutor for creatures, including the newly added Body Snatcher for only 5 mana, if necessary. The delirium requirement is problematic, I agree on that, but the deck is designed in such a way that it includes at least 8 cards of 5 different card types that all go to the graveyard relatively easy. It also works with Lion's Eye Diamond, which is why I value it higher than Worldly Tutor, but I could see some copies of Worldly Tutor making their way into the deck at some point.

    Furthermore, what I just realized when thinking about transferring the mana acceleration to a Peer or different style deck, when you use Culling the Weak with Veteran Explorer it is a hard 2-card combo requirement that can only be fulfilled by drawing the two cards.
    Another thing is that this 2-card combo may seem good at first because it generates +4 mana at worst, but giving the opponent 2 basics is a significant downside.
    I probably would not want to use it just for the mana acceleration. In the current list, like pointed out, Veteran Explorer both helps with Summoner's Pact and benefits from it.
    In any other deck 2x Dark Ritual would generate the same mana, 2x Rite of Flame would generate one less, both without the downside of the symmetrical Explorer effect. Generating the mana unconditionally and without downside is what ANT and TES can do better in my opinion. Thus, I am not super convinced that the "Culling the Explorer" is what we would want in another shell except for the current list.

    Would you evaluate "Culling the Explorer" in the same way or do you think it might also be good in a different shell?

    PS: Great input again, thank you for the discussion and your time! I believe that without you many threads in this forum would be a lot less active :)

  14. #14

    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    I guess you need to decide what the core of the deck is.

    I think the veteran explorer/summoners pact/culling engine is the most unique and powerful. Your innovation is that veteran explorer uniquely gets around the downside of pact (permanent mana sources-> you don’t lose to the trigger if you fizzle). For that shell blex is much better than hulk. You can cast it off 4 black mana without any other pieces, you aren’t graveyard reliant at all, and it requires less bad cards. T1 cabal therapy t2 vet, fb therapy, cruel bargain is a way better “fair” plan than anything your deck has as a plan B. Instead of being -3 cards vs force of Will (vet, cull, esg, esg, pact, something to sac the hulk) you are at least +2.

    If you think the core of the deck is hulk, you should just build it like worldgorger combo. You need more combo pieces and necromancy is more expensive than animate dead. But at least you avoid removal and possibly torpor orb effects.

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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I guess you need to decide what the core of the deck is.

    I think the veteran explorer/summoners pact/culling engine is the most unique and powerful. Your innovation is that veteran explorer uniquely gets around the downside of pact (permanent mana sources-> you don’t lose to the trigger if you fizzle). For that shell blex is much better than hulk. You can cast it off 4 black mana without any other pieces, you aren’t graveyard reliant at all, and it requires less bad cards. T1 cabal therapy t2 vet, fb therapy, cruel bargain is a way better “fair” plan than anything your deck has as a plan B. Instead of being -3 cards vs force of Will (vet, cull, esg, esg, pact, something to sac the hulk) you are at least +2.

    If you think the core of the deck is hulk, you should just build it like worldgorger combo. You need more combo pieces and necromancy is more expensive than animate dead. But at least you avoid removal and possibly torpor orb effects.
    Could you elaborate a bit more why you think Blex is better than Hulk? The draw-4 cards have the problem of fizzling and also take a decent amount of space in the deck, while Hulk wins on the spot.
    I am just not convinced yet but curious. Most of all because I do not like the Spanish Inquisition engine for not being deterministic.

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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    @Reeplcheep: Necromancy cast on end step has a built-in death trigger, like Footsteps of the Goryo (linked lists above). Animate Dead doesn't, so it needs a sac outlet. (more moving pieces)

    I don't see the point of Blex either. It's used in SI as a Pact-able Infernal Contract, but none of the variations of OP's deck need Infernal Contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    Would you come to the same conclusion or am I being too ignorant saying "it would just be a worse XY.dec, we should discard it"?
    Tough question. Realistically BR Reanimator is probably better than both builds, because it's better than most combo decks and graveyard decks in Legacy. Reanimator's very good at winning explosively and through hate. The bar is T1 evoke Grief -> Griselbrand -> take 2-3 more cards from opponent -> disruptive fatty -> opponent takes 1st turn. Comparing to a long-established Tier 1 deck may not be a good starting point.

    I think the better question is if some alternate engine (Entomb+Necromancy, Through the Breach/Sneak, Natural Order, Eldritch Evolution) is better than paying 7 mana for Hulk and still needing a sacrifice outlet. Necromancy may not be the best engine. But if you're committed to Hulk, I would look through different ways to cheat it out.

    I don't see the synergy between Ooze and Hulk. Is it just the green tutors? The flavor? With other Hulk enablers, you could still incorporate compact back-up wincons. Ooze has more synergy in a Tendrils deck.

    For Entomb + Necromancy, you can always have 1-of Worldgorger Dragon for the plan B infinite mana/forced draw if Hulk doesn't work. If your Hulk win-con is something like Kiki+Karmic Guide, you could also enable it with 2 Buried Alive and threaten to win without Hulk at all. That would add more dimensions to the deck, so you aren't just a strictly worse A+B reanimate deck.

    For Through the Breach/Sneak Attack, your creature tutors could find Worldspine Wurm or Emrakul as another win.

    etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    It is funny because I think the tutors are the best part of the deck :D It is always interesting to see how different people evaluate cards differently. This helps me a lot.
    Summoner's Pact works so great in the shell because you can use it for non-instant kills on T2 with the help of Veteran Explorer, while on the other hand Summoner's Pact can also get Veteran Explorer for fast acceleration with Culling the Weak. It also enables T2 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze lines with only 5+ mana available, for example with this starting hand: Land, Land, Explorer, Dark Ritual, LED, Cabal Therapy, Summoner's Pact and many other combinations.
    This is not possible with the usual black tutors we would have to use if we go for Peer as win option.
    With black tutors, that hand still has enough mana for T2 Ooze.

    If you went for Peer instead it would be slower than T2, but you would also get to win THAT turn. Keep in mind the Ooze would take more turns to actually end the game, so it isn't necessarily faster.

    The black tutor could also find answers to hate. Example: opponent plays Turn 1 Deafening Silence or Chalice @ 1, do you scoop with Pact instead of a black tutor?

    What if you resolve Ooze but opponent Wastes one of your lands? Do you scoop to Pact on upkeep?

    What if opponent discards/counters your Explorer? Is that Pact now a dead card, without an easy way to get 4 lands?

    The green tutors seem great for goldfishing, but do they stand up as well to an opponent? The black tutors are well-tested already through other decks. I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly. Have you tested the green ones in games?


    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    Traverse the Ulvenwald is also used flexible for two things: Smoothing out land drops, since we are already running basics for Veteran Explorer and as cost efficient tutor for creatures, including the newly added Body Snatcher for only 5 mana, if necessary. The delirium requirement is problematic, I agree on that,
    Any black tutor works well with LED and could also smooth out land drops, but also finds noncreature nonland cards. Wishclaw Talisman is also 1 mana on the combo turn. It requires some prior set up (2 mana), but Delirium requires some set up too. Traverse has many fail cases too. Again, I think this needs to be tested. Another card to consider is Once Upon A Time.


    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    Furthermore, what I just realized when thinking about transferring the mana acceleration to a Peer or different style deck, when you use Culling the Weak with Veteran Explorer it is a hard 2-card combo requirement that can only be fulfilled by drawing the two cards.

    Would you evaluate "Culling the Explorer" in the same way or do you think it might also be good in a different shell?
    No, this one I'd evaluate differently. You're looking at it too much like an A+B combo when each card works without the other. Culling the Weak + green fetch into Dryad Arbor. Veteran Explorer+Cabal Therapy/Phyrexian Tower/Diabolic Intent. I like Xantid Swarm+Culling the Weak because you get to put up shields before committing to going off. There are plenty of other possible interactions too. This could have more potential as a build-around shell.

    You could run Grief with instant-speed sac outlets like Phyrexian Tower, Culling the Weak and Diabolic Intent. Those work well with Explorer ramp too. Worst case scenario you can ritual into hardcast Griefs.

  17. #17

    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    Could you elaborate a bit more why you think Blex is better than Hulk? The draw-4 cards have the problem of fizzling and also take a decent amount of space in the deck, while Hulk wins on the spot.
    I am just not convinced yet but curious. Most of all because I do not like the Spanish Inquisition engine for not being deterministic.
    I guess the assumption is that this deck is a storm deck from the ooze and the rituals. Every storm deck has mana, engine, and wincons. Elves has cradle, glimpse, and craterhoof. TES has rite of flame, ad nauseum, and tendrils. ANT has cabal ritual, past in flames, and tendrils. If you are playing blex pact gets all three pieces: vet explorer/esg for acceleration, blex for engine and ooze for finisher.

    Ooze and a few tendrils require nothing else to win, whereas the hulk piles require at least 4 dead cards in your deck (“garnets”). Engines like blex compared to wincons like hulk is apples to oranges.

    The above builds have no engine and just have an expensive finisher (hulk) that requires a sac outlet and is seven! Mana. It is just a terrible storm card.

    If this is a A+B deck, why are you playing a bunch of mana acceleration and ooze?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    @Reeplcheep: Necromancy cast on end step has a built-in death trigger, like Footsteps of the Goryo (linked lists above). Animate Dead doesn't, so it needs a sac outlet. (more moving pieces).
    My point is that necromancy and footsteps are more expensive than animate dead and dance of the dead.This is a major con for the A+B plan compared to worldgorger for little benefit. Not that those cards work with hulk

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post

    If you went for Peer instead it would be slower than T2, but you would also get to win THAT turn. Keep in mind the Ooze would take more turns to actually end the game, so it isn't necessarily faster.

    The black tutor could also find answers to hate. Example: opponent plays Turn 1 Deafening Silence or Chalice @ 1, do you scoop with Pact instead of a black tutor?
    .
    Pact can find answers on the combo turn too, for free. Vexing Shusher and Rampart Breaker are good answers, while providing bodies for therapy and cull.

  18. #18
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Unfortunately, I am currently only able to goldfish and do some theory crafting due to time restrictions but hopefully will get some results from real games soon

    The input was great so far and I will be back on the drawing board and think about the possibilities and options you all brought up.

    I just wanted to quickly explain Aeve, Progenitor Ooze again: The current shell with Hulk as main win option also supports Aeve very well. For the small cost of adding one additional card, you get a lot more flexibility and a second angle of attack. There is not really a synergy with Hulk but rather with the rest of the deck.

    It is not really a storm deck, and due to the many moving and flexible pieces also not really an A+B style deck. It is hard to categorize it in my opinion. Is this a good or a bad thing? I don't know

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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    My point is that necromancy and footsteps are more expensive than animate dead and dance of the dead.This is a major con for the A+B plan compared to worldgorger for little benefit. Not that those cards work with hulk
    Ah ok.

    Advantage #1: Necromancy can win EOT at instant speed, while Animate Dead is only a main phase line. There are strategic advantages to being able to win at instant speed in a blue-heavy format.

    Advantage #2: Necromancy + Hulk is sufficient to win the game. Animate + Dragon doesn't actually win the game on its own. You just have infinite mana and need a 3rd card to win, and you can force a draw if there isn't another target in graveyards.

    Necromancy can be a turn 2 card depending on your manabase (e.g. Ancient Tomb, Peat Bog, Dark Ritual). 2B isn't a full turn slower than 1B in Legacy. The cost difference does matter, but it may not be huge.

    Re Blex: Most storm decks can't use "Draw 4" or "Draw 5" as a storm engine. Too much variance in those top cards. Too likely to fizzle, then lose to Pact trigger. SI is different because that whole deck is engineered to keep going off Draw 4s. For OP's deck, it fits the "tutorable by Pact" but not the "actually helps go from initial mana -> gas -> wincon".

  20. #20

    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Re Blex: Most storm decks can't use "Draw 4" or "Draw 5" as a storm engine. Too much variance in those top cards. Too likely to fizzle, then lose to Pact trigger. SI is different because that whole deck is engineered to keep going off Draw 4s. It fits the "tutorable by Pact" but not the "actually helps go from initial mana -> gas -> wincon".
    Yes the assumption is that all the hulk stuff would be replaced by SI stuff since it works so well with ooze and cull. The assumption is the vet engine will give you enough permanent mana to pay off your pact. That’s something unique about the vet/cull engine that gives you a reason to play it over more traditional rituals+black tutors.

    A draw 7 that discards your hand is in the best storm deck right now, and ooze requires very little storm to win. T1 vet, t2 land cull cruel bargain leaves you with BGGG, 2 storm and +2 cards. Any mana producing spell -> ooze should be good enough to win on the following turn, assuming you pacted for one of the pieces. Pact can get any of the pieces except cull, and can also get protection if necessary.

    Hulk is a great A+B card if you can cheat the death trigger somehow and vet/cull is an interesting storm engine. I think they don’t mix well at all. Ooze and necromancy or cull and entomb don’t work well together.

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