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Thread: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

  1. #61
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    New updates: Wishclaw Talisman finally made it into the deck after everyone was saying the deck needs good tutors :)
    See main post or https://deckstats.net/decks/194740/2...ggs-and-bacon/

    Edit: With Wishclaw Talisman in the deck I am considering Necromancy as 1-off to enable low-mana lines with Hulk.
    Last edited by eatbasics; 04-17-2022 at 08:02 AM.

  2. #62
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    I found 2 new Hulk kills I want to share with you.
    They both are unfortunately not better than the current version of the deck nor the Thassa's Oracle win.

    1. Hulk dies, get: Necrotic Ooze, Walking Ballista, Goblin Engineer. Ballista dies (state-based), Engineer trigger drops Phyrexian Devourer into to graveyard and you win by using Devourer's and Ballista's activated abilities with Ooze.

    2. Hulk dies, get: Frenetic Efreet, Tavern Scoundrel, Disciple of the Vault. Use Efreet's ability a million times, get up to 2 million treasure tokens, sacrifice them to win by Desciple triggers.

  3. #63
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    I played in a local tournament (46 players) yesterday finishing 3-2-1 (realistically 3-3) after a bad start with M1: 1-1-1, M2: 0-2, M3: 1-2. I know that when starting with a bad score it is more likely to be paired against “weaker” decks/opponent, but I was happy to turn the tides to a positive finish winning all 3 matches after that getting 17th place in the end.

    D: WB Humans (1-1-1)

    Between Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Kitesail Freebooter, and General Kudro of Drannith and all sorts of disruptive cards it was hard to set foot, but I actually had odds to win in all three games and could have won with a little bit more luck.

    G1: Protean Hulk via Pact/LED/Mana/Cabal Therapy on T2.

    G2: Back to back Rest in Peace from which I was able to handle 1 and I was also able to stabilize by establishing Dread of Night and Massacre their board followed by Aeve (storm=7) at 2 life, just to die to Kitesail Freebooter off of Aether Vial followed by a Thalia's Lieutenant on their turn (presumably off the top or else I would have died the turn before).

    G3: Since it was the first paper tournament in a long time for most of us, we were all a bit rusty and played slowly, and G2 took a long time because it was a lot of back and forth, thus we started G3 like 5 min before time and neither of us was able to win in time because I was disrupted by Archon of Emeria, but I also had 2 Dread of Night in play. Realistically speaking, I think I would have lost the game anyway but was happy to at least get the draw.

    L: Bant Control (0-2)

    G1: I open a T2 Hulk kill with Summoner’s Pact but without protection and on the draw. Opponent plays Misty Rainforest so I assume a blue deck and was happy to draw Cabal Therapy for the turn which would have been a T1 kill. I name Force of Will just to see Endurance and a green card in their hand. I am able to flashback therapy naming Endurance before they get to 3 mana but this set me 1 turn back to actually win, and they reveal Force of Will now but no other blue card … I decide to go for it the turn after that after they played a Ponder and did not shuffle. In hindsight, it was obvious that they found a blue card for FoW and I should have played it more patiently. Bad play on my end.

    G2: I draw and play very poorly and never found a pay-off spell.

    L: Burn (1-2)

    G1: T2 Hulk kill with Wishclaw/Pact/LED/Dark Ritual.
    I have Swamp and Forest in play, Dark Ritual for Wishclaw, play LED, play Pact getting Hulk. Switching to combat step, make BBB with LED discarding Hulk, use Forest to activate Wishclaw getting Necromancy, reanimate Hulk and win EoT.

    G2: They start with 7 and Leyline of the Void and I was not able to find a fast enough line to stop the burn. In desperation I go for a Aeve storm=7 line at 4 life giving them a Wishclaw Talisman and they had 2 Mountains in play … Fireblast?! They had 2 Lightning Bolt in hand anyway.

    G3: I was not able to assemble any reasonable line in time (drawing 3 Culling the Weak in 10 cards without any fodder) and die to a quick clock.

    W: Esper Standstill (2-1)

    G1: I have to play to whole game with 1-2 Swamps and had to discard Body Double to handsize at one point just to get it removed by their Kaya, Orzhov Usurper, which was a bummer.

    G2: I can finally execute the green part of my deck going off with Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Pact and Aeve.

    G3: It was a back and forth and I got locked under a Ashiok, Dream Render, but was able to handle it using Abrupt Decay and making a ton of Aeves again.

    W: Jeskai Control (2-0)

    G1: I was able to go off in the earlier turns and strip their counters to make way for a Aeve strom=6 or 7.

    G2: It was a long back and forth and I knew they have Supreme Verdict and Flusterstorm available. I was able to establish a Carpet of Flowers after one was removed and drew Protean Hulk itself from the top with Cabal Therapy in the graveyard. Carpet making 5 mana won that game.

    W: Eldrazi Prison(2-0)

    G1: They go T1 Ancient Tomb + Chalice of the Void on 1. I had the nuts opening hand with 2 LED, Petal, land, Wishclaw, Pact and proceed to win with Necromancy (see above).

    G2: Was really weird, they had a lot of prison and graveyard hate and a reasonable clock, but I was able to stabilize with Pernicious Deed. It is hard to recall everything, but winning involved playing Reveillark using Lotus Petal, Necromancy on their Reality Smasher and Body Snatcher discarding Explorer and sacrificing it with Culling the Weak to get back Reveillark … what actually won that game was the fact that they totally flooded out during the second part of the game.

    Decklist with some comments on cards

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Culling the Weak (felt clunky at times, could have been 3 copies instead)
    4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Summoner’s Pact
    3 Wishclaw Talisman
    3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
    3 Toughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Veteran Explorer
    1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze
    1 Protean Hulk
    1 Body Double
    1 Body Snatcher
    1 Reveillark
    1 Serrated Scorpion
    1 Carrion Feeder
    1 Viscera Seer
    1 Necromancy
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Misty Rainforest
    4 Forest
    2 Swamp
    1 Bayou
    1 Dryad Arbor (felt bad, if Culling is reduced to 3 Arbor could maybe leave as well)

    Sideboard

    3 Carpet of Flowers (was really good, but I was not able to get a 4th paper copy)
    1 Foundation Breaker (was reasonable)
    3 Abrupt Decay (was great)
    2 Veil of Summer (never came up)
    1 Xantid Swarm (was bad, I never boarded it in because of space restrictions)
    1 Massacre (was good)
    2 Dread of Night (was ok, our local tournament is known for its DnT density, which is why I tried to come prepared)
    1 Thoughtseize (never came up, combo)
    1 Pernicious Deed (came up once, was ok. The idea was to bring it in vs Prison and 8-Cast)

    Conclusion

    The deck was really fun to play and it was great to talk to my opponents after the matches. In general, most people yesterday were all very kind and it was a joy playing and talking with them!
    Even though the result is mediocre I never felt that I was losing hard and always had outs I tried to play towards.
    Unfortunately, I made some misplays and punts especially during the first three matches, but from those I learned a lot about the deck and the play patterns.
    I believe the “brewer’s advantage” helped in winning some of the games, so it is unclear if the deck is still somewhat competitive when it should ever become “established”.
    Sideboarding was hard. The deck has not much room for sideboard cards, which is why I have to revise sideboarding again.
    In general, I am left with a good feeling and still think the deck has potential. I will continue this journey and keep tuning the list :)

    Disclaimer: I wrote the text in one go and posted it without proof-reading, please excuse all errors, bad grammar and not-understandable sentences.

  4. #64
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Updated the "Primer" and sideboard guide based on my recent experiences with the deck

  5. #65
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    This was spoiled recently and it brings some possibilites for the deck.



    The combo would work as follows:
    Sacrifice Protean Hulk get Activated Sleeper (entering as Hulk), Qarsi Sadist and Viscera Seer.
    With Exploit trigger on the stack sacrifice Sleeper (Hulk) to Seer and get Reveillark.
    Sacrifice Sadist to Seer.
    Sacrifice Lark to Seer, return Sadist and Sleeper (entering as Lark).
    Exploit Sadist to drain 2 life and sacrifice Sleeper (Lark) for the infinite loop.
    The first Exploit is always still on stack, which prevents that a single spot removal breaks up the combo.

    1.) With Qarsi Sadist we can cut Serrated Scorpion and Carrion Feeder netting 1 additional slot in the deck.
    2.) The combo is now one its own "1 removal proof" (when all cards are in the deck, see below). Previously, Body Snatcher was needed for that.
    3.) Activated Sleeper is on color for what it's worth.

    I haven't run all possible scenarios, but from what I did I can see that the combo with Sleeper and Sadist is a little bit weaker to spot removal if a card of the combo is already in hand, mainly because of the "was put from battlefield to graveyard" clause on Sleeper. This also stops lines where Hulk is already in graveyard and you draw Sleeper, but to be fair, playing Body Double for 4U while Hulk is in graveyard was also an unlikely scenario to begin with.

    Maybe the downsides of Sleeper are worth 1 more slot in a deck that is already stacked due to a lot of combo cards (7 with Body Double combo).

    Or, maybe it is worth to just replace Body Double and Serrated Scorpion with Activated Sleeper and Qarsi Sadist, which could make the combo more resillient and adds another sacrifice effect.

    What do you think?
    Does it really work as intended or did I miss something?
    Has anyone other ideas with the new card?

  6. #66
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    I played in a local tournament (46 players) yesterday finishing 3-2-1 (realistically 3-3) after a bad start with M1: 1-1-1, M2: 0-2, M3: 1-2. I know that when starting with a bad score it is more likely to be paired against “weaker” decks/opponent, but I was happy to turn the tides to a positive finish winning all 3 matches after that getting 17th place in the end.
    Nice tournament report! Congrats on getting some paper experience with it.

    In terms of games you had
    Aeve wins: 3
    Necromancy wins: 3
    Hulk hardcast wins: 2 (1 from Carpet X=5)
    Stormed with Aeve but lost before untap: 2
    Hulk line too slow: 1
    Other Loss: 4

    This brings me back to earlier points.

    1) Necromancy is a good Protean Hulk enabler. Even though you only ran 1 copy and opponents played grave hate, you still won with Necromancy more often than by paying 7 mana for Hulk (1 time by stealing opponent's creature, which is still a good mode).

    2) You rarely won by casting Hulk (7 mana). 1 win needed Carpet making 5 mana! 1 loss because setting up Hulk with protection was too slow. Other losses from not having any line fast enough. 7 mana is a lot. It's hard to do consistently through disruption and while playing protection (Therapy, Veil). Against blue control Carpet produces a ton of mana making this viable as a plan C. But for a plan A, paying 5GG for Hulk costs too many resources.

    3) Aeve (5 mana) was easier to combo off. You stormed with Aeve 5 times! 3 were wins, 2 were a turn too slow (maybe bad luck too).

    Do you think it's worth running more copies of Necromancy? It will increase your ability to Hulk combo quickly. You can also use Necromancy offensively (discard their big creature & steal it).

    It's hard to use Veil of Summer to protect your combo due to mana requirements. With Aeve it's a GGGG line. With Hulk it's an 8-mana line: 5GGG. Traverse lines increase that by another green! Green mana is harder for you to produce, so that can be a problem. With Necromancy, it would be much easier to protect the combo with Veil (2BG).

    Is Assassin's Trophy better than Abrupt Decay for you? You have very few ways to remove Leyline of the Void, which cost you 1 game.

    As for the actual Hulk combo pieces, between Sleeper or Body Double, Sleeper looks better. It comes down to which lets you run a smaller package without adding weaknesses.
    Last edited by FTW; 08-30-2022 at 12:45 PM.

  7. #67
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Nice tournament report! Congrats on getting some paper experience with it.

    In terms of games you had
    Aeve wins: 3
    Necromancy wins: 3
    Hulk hardcast wins: 2 (1 from Carpet X=5)
    Stormed with Aeve but lost before untap: 2
    Hulk line too slow: 1
    Other Loss: 4

    This brings me back to earlier points.

    1) Necromancy is a good Protean Hulk enabler. Even though you only ran 1 copy and opponents played grave hate, you still won with Necromancy more often than by paying 7 mana for Hulk (1 time by stealing opponent's creature, which is still a good mode).

    2) You rarely won by casting Hulk (7 mana). 1 win needed Carpet making 5 mana! 1 loss because setting up Hulk with protection was too slow. Other losses from not having any line fast enough. 7 mana is a lot. It's hard to do consistently through disruption and while playing protection (Therapy, Veil). Against blue control Carpet produces a ton of mana making this viable as a plan C. But for a plan A, paying 5GG for Hulk costs too many resources.

    3) Aeve (5 mana) was easier to combo off. You stormed with Aeve 5 times! 3 were wins, 2 were a turn too slow (maybe bad luck too).

    Do you think it's worth running more copies of Necromancy? It will increase your ability to Hulk combo quickly. You can also use Necromancy offensively (discard their big creature & steal it).

    It's hard to use Veil of Summer to protect your combo due to mana requirements. With Aeve it's a GGGG line. With Hulk it's an 8-mana line: 5GGG. Traverse lines increase that by another green! Green mana is harder for you to produce, so that can be a problem. With Necromancy, it would be much easier to protect the combo with Veil (2BG).

    Is Assassin's Trophy better than Abrupt Decay for you? You have very few ways to remove Leyline of the Void, which cost you 1 game.

    As for the actual Hulk combo pieces, between Sleeper or Body Double, Sleeper looks better. It comes down to which lets you run a smaller package without adding weaknesses.
    Given the small sample size I am hesitant to jump to a conclusion, but a similar trend is seen in my (few) online results.
    Your points are valid and very helpful, thank you!
    I did summarize the result and what line I took before, but seeing it pointed out like you did helped for sure.

    The 7 mana hard mode line is not looking great, I agree.
    Necromancy worked great, but I would probably not discard the idea of the 7-mana Hulk-line entirely and force only Necro-lines, for example by cutting something like Culling the Weak, adding Entomb or something of that nature.
    Adding more possible lines to the deck while keeping the others available is good design in my opinion, given if the deck does not get too convoluted in the end.
    I experience this during my testing and at the tournament, where I looked at some opening hands and I could keep all three possible lines (7-mana, necro, aeve) live for 1 or 2 turns while making progress with land drops or hand disruption and then finally commit to the best line once I had more information what the opponent plays/has in hand and what I drew for turns.
    Drawing multiples of Necromancy could also be an issue. I think maybe 2 is a good number, but the shell is too stacked ... I am unsure what to cut, maybe even 1 Wishlaw Talisman or Traverse the Ulvenwald.

    In this regard, I was thinking that maybe in addition to 1 or 2 Necromancy another reanimate spells would be interesting, for example plain Reanimate which has a high cost for Hulk and requires a sac outlet, but could add some game with Veteran Explorer adding to Storm lines with Aeve.
    Given the fact that it is hard to figure out how to put in a second Necromancy this is probably too cute and out of bounds right now.

    Regarding the sideboard, Veil of Summer only comes in against discard decks and against blue decks where I can also leverage Carpet of Flowers, but I admit that I am also not happy with the card in general.

    Assasin's Thropy is now in the sideboard as a catch all against, mainly against non-blue decks, while Abrupt Decay is still in specifically against blue decks with hate permanents.

    Edit 1: I brainstormed a bit how a "dedicated" necro-hulk list would look like and at that point it is probably easier to run another A+B combo in the same color, Witherbloom Apprentice + Chain of Smog.

    Edit 2: Maybe instead of a second Necromancy it is better to add a Footsteps of the Goryo, beacause sometimes you have go for it in your mainphase (sorceries) and then Necromancy does not do the trick.
    Last edited by eatbasics; 09-05-2022 at 12:15 PM.

  8. #68
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    I agree you shouldn't cut the 7-mana line entirely. Plus, the rituals has synergy with Aeve storm. I just think the 7-mana line shouldn't be the plan A. It's clearly hard to do often. I think it should be pulled back to plan C. It is nice to have as an option, but the other lines (Necromancy = 3 mana, Aeve = 5 mana) seem more reliable through disruption and mulligans. It's still better than an A+B deck because you have multiple possible lines. If it was just Necro+Hulk, then it's a bad Reanimator/Dragon combo, but you also have storm lines that ignore the graveyard!

    You could start with just 2 Necromancy. With 2 copies + tutors you'll have some access to it. See how that does. Maybe you'll want a 3rd, or maybe that's enough.

    Necromancy can work on the main phase. It doesn't have to be on opponent's turn like Force of Vigor. It just has to be played with Flash when you cannot play a sorcery (stack not empty). That can be main phase. You could cast another spell or activate an ability (fetchland, Therapy), then Necromancy in response. Or you can Necromancy at sorcery speed and sac Hulk to Cabal Therapy/Viscera Seer. Even if you pay 7 for Hulk, you still need a sacrifice outlet. Try it out. You could always switch to 1 Necromancy 1 Footsteps, but 2 Necromancy should work. The advantage of Necromancy is you can also steal opponent's Griselbrand/Tarmogoyf or go off on their end step...

    Good luck!

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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I agree you shouldn't cut the 7-mana line entirely. Plus, the rituals has synergy with Aeve storm. I just think the 7-mana line shouldn't be the plan A. It's clearly hard to do often. I think it should be pulled back to plan C. It is nice to have as an option, but the other lines (Necromancy = 3 mana, Aeve = 5 mana) seem more reliable through disruption and mulligans. It's still better than an A+B deck because you have multiple possible lines. If it was just Necro+Hulk, then it's a bad Reanimator/Dragon combo, but you also have storm lines that ignore the graveyard!

    You could start with just 2 Necromancy. With 2 copies + tutors you'll have some access to it. See how that does. Maybe you'll want a 3rd, or maybe that's enough.

    Necromancy can work on the main phase. It doesn't have to be on opponent's turn like Force of Vigor. It just has to be played with Flash when you cannot play a sorcery (stack not empty). That can be main phase. You could cast another spell or activate an ability (fetchland, Therapy), then Necromancy in response. Or you can Necromancy at sorcery speed and sac Hulk to Cabal Therapy/Viscera Seer. Even if you pay 7 for Hulk, you still need a sacrifice outlet. Try it out. You could always switch to 1 Necromancy 1 Footsteps, but 2 Necromancy should work. The advantage of Necromancy is you can also steal opponent's Griselbrand/Tarmogoyf or go off on their end step...

    Good luck!
    I agree with both points, 7-mana is C-plan and the Footsteps are "ok", but I should better start off with 2 Necromancy.
    Next week I will give it a try at our local tournament :)
    Thanks for the input and help again!

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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    I played a small local tournament, and the results were not great.

    I played the list as shown here: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/_sTh75tJKUOePs2ZyTlLLg

    Disclaimer: I was out sick the whole week prior to the tournament and was not at 100%, thus making huge punts in the last round and played poor in general. This is also why my memory of the tournament is not 100% too and the report turned out to be just a quick write-up instead.

    Round 1 vs Eldrazi
    G1: I win T2 otp with land, land, LED, Dark Ritual, Pact and Cabal Therapy -> Protean Hulk
    G2: I have to mulligan to 5 and still no functional hand, I lose to a fast clock + chalice on 1
    G3: I have to mulligan to 4 and still no functional hand, I lose to … my deck? and a fast clock.
    -> W: 0, L: 1

    Round 2 vs Goblins
    G1: I mulligan to 5 and take some time developing the game plan. There is one decisive turn when they are empty handed and ~7 power on board while I am at 13 life, including a Goblin Lackey. I had to pass and would have won the following turn, but they top decked a Matron for the win. It was a little bit unlucky, but I took so long to assemble the kill and they had so many outs, so no reason to be mad about it.
    G2: I have to mulligan to 5 and still no functional hand. I lose to a fast clock.
    -> W: 0, L: 2

    Round 3 BYE
    -> W: 0 , L: 2 (not counting the bye)

    Round 4 vs UR Delver
    G1: I opened a good hand with a T2 Aeve by Veteran, Therapy, LED, Pact and shred their one piece of interaction with Therapy for the win.
    G2: The game develops a little bit longer and the clock was not very fast. I was able to establish a Carpet of Flowers and by discard knew the coast was clear for at least a high storm Aeave, but thanks to Necromancy I was able to pull off an instant kill.
    -> W: 1 , L: 2

    Round 5 vs Stryfo Pile
    G1: I was able to assemble a fast T2 Aeve, like Round 4, G1 and win.
    G2: The game took a little bit longer and I took an Aeve line. At this time the effect of my exhausted body reached its peak because I probably could have waited a little bit longer to go for a Hulk line. Also, after Aeve resolved, Dack Fayden ticked to 6 and I decided not to attack it with at least 1 Token. Afterwards, the Emblem took over and decimated my Aeve army, sealing the deal with an Uro from the graveyard.
    G3: Was a similarly long game and my concentration is at the bottom … that being said, my opponent was also not at 100%. Mistakes were made, and my Aeve resolved again, this time facing Minsk and Boo. I had to opportunity to kill Minsk and Boo with my Carrion Feeder (sac 1 Token) and Veteran Explorer on board, but I decided to sacrifice also the explorer, giving them the mana to kill the Feeder and by this point I had lost, not yet on board, but mentally, and then of course, lost for real.
    -> W: 1, L: 3

    Wrap up:
    Although I was not at 100% I had some fun, but I was a little bit mad at myself for playing so poorly.
    I think round 1 and 2 showed one weakness of the deck, which is its high rate of “non-functional” hands. Round 3 and 4 felt better and might hint at the fact that the deck is better against a slower clock. It is a T2+ combo deck after all.

    I wanted to check if the issue is in the opening hands, which is why I looked at ~100 hands and rated them. These are the results:

    Mulligan: 45%
    Keep: 55%

    whereas I kept hands that had game plan that plays out in 1 – 3 turns and mulliganed all hands that are non-functional (no plays possible whatsoever (no game: NG), no concrete game plan visible (no plan: NP) or no pay-off in hand (no combo: NC)).

    Also, I noted if the hand is only keepable at 7, 6 or 5 cards, trying to get a little bit more insight if the deck mulligans poor or not.
    Mulligan: 45% (NG 10%, NP: 23%, NC: 12%)
    Keep: 55% (7: 14%, 6: 30%, 5: 11%)

    It is a relief, that three thirds of the keepable hands function at 6 or 5 cards, which indicates that it is ok to mulligan 7 card hands more often.

    What I also noticed is that Necromancy on one hand made some hands keepable and on the other hand is awkward alone or in hands to pivot to an Aeve line.

    No game hands at 10% is scary, but the other mulligan hands lacked either a pay-off or a better combination of resources (f.e. only tutors in hand, only lands/creates/1 tutor, …).

    I would like to increase the keep percentages somehow, but I am not sure how to approach it. One idea could be to add draw and selection spells, such as Sylvan Library, Deadly Dispute. Brainstorm is unfortunately out of limits. I also wonder if Once Upon A Time is any good or if the fail rate in a spell heavy deck is too high.
    The hope of adding such cards is to able to use them in NP and NC hand scenarios to sculpt a better hand or find a pay-off.
    Unfortunately, the deck is really low on flex slots, which is why I could probably one fit like 2 such effects.

    Another hint from the tournament result is that maybe Aeve is the main win con and maybe the deck should pivot towards Aeve and … drop Hulk? This was also hinted in the previous tournament and mentioned by FTW earlier on.
    I will put more thought into it and I am curious where this journey will take me :)

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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Thanks for posting the results! Too bad about being sick and not feeling 100%.

    Wow, that's a high mulligan rate. It's hard for any combo deck to win postboard games through hate with only 4-5 cards in hand.

    Do you remember why so many of those hands were mulligans? No mana? Was 15 lands enough?

    I'm surprised at the number of "No Plan" hands given that you run 11 tutors! One function of tutors is to help stabilize hands that are missing a piece. Unfortunately you don't get good cantrips in BG so you depend on tutors.
    On page 1 there was some discussion about how your green tutors are only good on the combo turn but bad for the setup phase (Pact loses the game, Traverse needs Delirium). A deck like ANT or TES can also use its tutors to sculpt a functional hand, not just to get the wincon. Unfortunately Pact and Traverse don't help get you to a plan, only find Aeve or Hulk once you have the mana to go off. Pact for Aeve can also be dangerous... Is that why these hands had no plan? Or was it a lack of creatures to sacrifice (you use to have more with 2 Carrion Feeder + 2 Seer)?

    Maybe you should cut some green tutors to go up to 4 Wishclaw Talisman (or another tutor like Profane Tutor or Worldly Tutor). It's 1 more mana on the combo turn, but better at other phases of the game. With more black tutors you can go down to 1 Necromancy and tutor it when needed.

    For gameplay, if you don't have a lethal attack with Aeve I would always kill good planeswalkers first over dealing non-lethal damage.

  12. #72
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Thanks for posting the results! Too bad about being sick and not feeling 100%.

    Wow, that's a high mulligan rate. It's hard for any combo deck to win postboard games through hate with only 4-5 cards in hand.

    Do you remember why so many of those hands were mulligans? No mana? Was 15 lands enough?

    I'm surprised at the number of "No Plan" hands given that you run 11 tutors! One function of tutors is to help stabilize hands that are missing a piece. Unfortunately you don't get good cantrips in BG so you depend on tutors.
    On page 1 there was some discussion about how your green tutors are only good on the combo turn but bad for the setup phase (Pact loses the game, Traverse needs Delirium). A deck like ANT or TES can also use its tutors to sculpt a functional hand, not just to get the wincon. Unfortunately Pact and Traverse don't help get you to a plan, only find Aeve or Hulk once you have the mana to go off. Pact for Aeve can also be dangerous... Is that why these hands had no plan? Or was it a lack of creatures to sacrifice (you use to have more with 2 Carrion Feeder + 2 Seer)?

    Maybe you should cut some green tutors to go up to 4 Wishclaw Talisman (or another tutor like Profane Tutor or Worldly Tutor). It's 1 more mana on the combo turn, but better at other phases of the game. With more black tutors you can go down to 1 Necromancy and tutor it when needed.

    For gameplay, if you don't have a lethal attack with Aeve I would always kill good planeswalkers first over dealing non-lethal damage.
    The "no plan" and "no combo" hands were keep-able to some degree.
    Especially the "no combo" hands were mostly missing a pay-off spell to function. With 11 tutors in the deck they are probably keep-able if you are feeling lucky.
    The "no plan" hands were a mixture of too many lands, lands of the wrong color, multiple green tutors without much fast mana, etc. they were generally lacking more than one good top deck to function and therefore deemed to be a mulligan.
    Maybe some of these hands were ok, but depending on the MU they would basically be auto-lose.

    Considering this, I might have been to strict with dumping hands and the actual mulligan percentage might lower, more like ~30 % +/- 5%.

    Regarding the tutors, Traverse actually helps a lot of the time with sculpting a hand / making a hand playable by fixing the mana of 1 land hands.
    However, I can see too that the black tutors might be better and I should run at least 4 of them, even if that means cutting a Traverse for example.

    I am trying to add 1 Sylvan Library into the mix as well. It adds card selection and can generate more actual cards which is good in a deck that needs multiple resources to go off and could compensate a mulligan to 6 or 5 to some degree.

    15 lands was ok, I think the hands when I "flooded" with 3+ lands appeared at a similar rate than the hands without a land, and there is also the fact, that the deck can win without lands (Lotus Petal) or play some LEDs out during the first turns, while land flood is usual a nail in the coffin.

    The creature count was also fine, Dryad Arbor is doing serious work getting sacrificed for the greater good

  13. #73
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    After pondering over the “100 starting hands” data a bit and the deck in general I came to the following conclusion:

    Assumptions:

    1) The deck has 4 killer slot cards and 2 slots (Feeder/Seer) that are “ok”, which makes hands basically a mulliganed hand and makes mulliganing even worse.
    2) The deck is cramped and has few flex slots, which makes sideboarding clunky
    3) The biggest proportion of mulligans were “no plan” hands, presumably because the deck lacks velocity / flexibility

    Possible solution:

    1) Reduce the probability of drawing killer slot cards
    2) Make room for more flex slots
    3) Add cards that increase velocity / flexibility

    All these points can be address by simply adding more than 60 cards to the main deck, so I took a page out of this guy’s playbook: https://www.igmdm.com/allspells-pro-tour-pioneer/ and tested adding more cards!

    I have not run the numbers yet of how many extra cards I actually want based on probabilities and stuff, I just started with 65 “pushing the 4 killer slots + Feeder and Seer, which I counted as ½ each, out of the 60”.

    I added

    1 Misty Rainforest for good measure and keep the premise “every forth card is a land”. Could become a Boseiju, Who Endures in the future (1 / 5).

    2 Sylvan Library for velocity / flexibility, which in theory is amazing. Imagine T2 Therapy, Explorer, Flashback Therapy into S.Library, or even T1 Lotus Petal, Land, S.Library. Also, it helps with “no plan” hands filtering and drawing cards (3 / 5).

    1 Deadly Dispute for experimental reasons. In theory, it should also help with velocity and flexibility and has cute shenanigans with Wishclaw Talisman. In practice they ability to filter BB into G (and draw 2 cards) was rather useful, but could be replaced by another Diabolic Intent in the future (4 / 5).

    2 Shambling Ghast … what? I was concerned that the frequency of drawing creatures to sacrifice would be too low given I added more cards (reduce probability of Explorer) and added 1 Deadly Dispute. Ghast was on my radar at the beginning of this ride, but fell off at some point. However, now I want to try it again because it promised me to a) cycle B into G b) strong earlier to midgame plays that do not involve going all in, for example Diabolic Intent or Dispute the Ghast on T2, destroy hands while leaving a Treasure token or killing a DRC/Thalia on the way. (6 / 5)

    With 1 card above the limit I set myself without any reason, I chose to reduce Traverse the Ulvenwald back to 3, because one reason of the “no plan” hands were multiple green tutors clocking up the hand.

    This leads to this very experimental list:

    //Main
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Culling the Weak
    4 Dark Ritual

    4 Summoner's Pact
    3 Wishclaw Talisman
    3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
    1 Diabolic Intent

    4 Veteran Explorer
    2 Shambling Ghast

    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Thoughtseize

    2 Sylvan Library
    1 Deadly Dispute

    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Bayou
    1 Dryad Arbor
    4 Forest
    1 Swamp

    1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze

    1 Protean Hulk
    1 Reveillark
    1 Qarsi Sadist
    1 Body Snatcher
    1 Activated Sleeper
    1 Viscera Seer
    1 Carrion Feeder
    1 Necromancy


    //Sideboard
    1 Foundation Breaker
    4 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Assassin's Trophy
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Boseiju, Who Endures
    1 Duress
    1 Massacre
    1 Thoughtseize

    I believe the 65 cards list has the above mentioned benefits of fewer mulligans in general, better sideboard mapping and more velocity / flexibility, but this is just a theory, I will see how it pans out in practice.

  14. #74
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    1) The deck has 4 killer slot cards and 2 slots (Feeder/Seer) that are “ok”, which makes hands basically a mulliganed hand and makes mulliganing even worse.
    Why are Feeder/Seer bad draws in the opening hand? You have redundant copies, so you can afford to use the 1st as sacrifice fodder. You also need a sac outlet to win with Hulk lines. It seems like a good card to start.

    The worst card in opening hand is Summoner's Pact. It does nothing unless you have the resources to win with Hulk that turn (7 mana + sac outlet + protection spell). To use it for Aeve, you would need to make sure to have 2GG available next turn that is not easily disrupted (Wasteland, Meltdown, Ouphe) so you don't lose to Pact before attacking. Since you use Aeve more than hardcast Hulk, why still have 4 Pact? Traverse can get Aeve, lands, or answers.

    Maybe
    4 Traverse
    3 Wishclaw
    2 Pact
    1 Diabolic

    Traverse and Wishclaw are the most useful/flexible. Pact and Diabolic work under the most restrictive conditions. Pact is the best Magical Christmasland one but is not helping the variance problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    All these points can be address by simply adding more than 60 cards to the main deck
    But that reduces chances of seeing combo pieces in the opening hand. i.e. increases % of "no plan" hands.
    Unless the extra cards are all Brainstorms and tutors (transformable into any combo piece), instead of random 1/1 dorks and conditional cards, they should reduce the % of "plan" hands. 60-61 cards seems better.

  15. #75
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Why are Feeder/Seer bad draws in the opening hand? You have redundant copies, so you can afford to use the 1st as sacrifice fodder. You also need a sac outlet to win with Hulk lines. It seems like a good card to start.

    The worst card in opening hand is Summoner's Pact. It does nothing unless you have the resources to win with Hulk that turn (7 mana + sac outlet + protection spell). To use it for Aeve, you would need to make sure to have 2GG available next turn that is not easily disrupted (Wasteland, Meltdown, Ouphe) so you don't lose to Pact before attacking. Since you use Aeve more than hardcast Hulk, why still have 4 Pact? Traverse can get Aeve, lands, or answers.

    Maybe
    4 Traverse
    3 Wishclaw
    2 Pact
    1 Diabolic

    Traverse and Wishclaw are the most useful/flexible. Pact and Diabolic work under the most restrictive conditions. Pact is the best Magical Christmasland one but is not helping the variance problem.




    But that reduces chances of seeing combo pieces in the opening hand. i.e. increases % of "no plan" hands.
    Unless the extra cards are all Brainstorms and tutors (transformable into any combo piece), instead of random 1/1 dorks and conditional cards, they should reduce the % of "plan" hands. 60-61 cards seems better.
    I see Feeder/Seer not as enabler for Hulk anymore. With Wishclaw and Intent the main strategy is Necromancy and even if I resort to a hard-cast hulk these tutors can grab a Therapy for example.
    Their role as sacrifice fodder is also questionable since it gives no real benefit. 2 cards into 4 BBBB or 2 cards into 2 discards without any side-effect are not great plays in my opinion, but that is why I categorized them as "ok" and not as killer slots.
    Since I decrease the chance of drawing these cards I am also playing with the idea to move one of them to the SB only for MU with instant removal, but then drawing the 1-off is miserable because it actually breaks the combo.

    Summoner's Pact is one of the best cards to have T2 paired with Veteran Explorer. During my testing I often went T2 "nicfit" into 4 basic lands and an Aeve. It is not as risky as you might think it is. Also, Pact is virtually 5 copies of Hulk that helps with Necromancy lines too. Hulk lines in general are all-in and win on the spot if successful, so no risk loosing to pact trigger either.

    I can see that Ghast and Dispute might seem weird, but they open up a new perspective on the deck I wanted to try.
    I will run the numbers and see how much tutor % I lose compared to other metrics.
    It is really experimental and from what I have seen so far it might get cut soon again.

    What I can say is I really love Sylvan Library that card seems to be a great inclusion at 1 - 2 copies and is a small "combo finisher" for 1G when paired with "nicfit" and a powerful engine when slammed T1.

  16. #76
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    Re: Jelly, Eggs and Bacon

    Since this thread is also some sort of summary of Protean Hulk kills, I want to share another combo package that unfortunately is not better than the current one using Qarsi Sadist.

    Activated Sleeper
    Carrion Feeder
    Thassa's Oracle
    Leveler

    Protean Hulk triggers getting Activated Sleeper (entering as Hulk), Carrion Feeder, Thassa's Oracle.
    With Thassa's Oracle's trigger on the stack, sacrifice Activated Sleeper (Hulk) and get Leveler for the win.

    The downside of this combo is, that Thassa's Oracle or Activated Sleeper in hand or graveyard stop it from working, while the Qarsi Sadist package is pretty resilient to pieces not being in the library, thanks to the flexibility Body Snatcher adds.

    In the above combo Body Snatcher is only helpful if Leveler is in hand or graveyard.

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