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Thread: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

  1. #1

    Rip Helm Gains

    Hi guys, this deck is not tuned at all but it looks like it could have some potential. It's a simple combo aggro deck that centers around a combo featuring 8 graveyard removal (4x Dauthi Voidwalker and 4x Leyline of the Void) with 8 gravehate combo pieces (4x Helm of Obedience and 4x Ill-Gotten Gains).

    Most of you already know about Helm of Obedience with Leyline and/or Dauthi Voidwalker, however Ill-Gotten Gains with either Voidwalker or Leyline forces an opponent to discard their entire hand while drawing us up to 3 cards.

    This list is not tuned at all. But I've done some goldfishing and it can easily combo out on turn 2. The aggro back up plan is fantastic. Seems like something like this should be be a thing. Thoughts on tuning it? Especially the mana base. Does it need more removal? Should we splash a color? Suggestions are welcome.


    //Combo: 16
    4x Dauthi Voidwalker
    4x Leyline of the Void
    4x Helm of Obedience
    4x Ill-Gotten Gains

    //Disruption: 10
    4x Thoughtseize
    4x Hymn to Tourach
    2x Liliana of the Veil

    //Beats: 14 (including Voidwalker)
    4x Opposition Agent
    2x Plague Engineer
    4x Rotting Regisaur


    //Land / Ramp: 24
    4x Dark Ritual
    2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    2x Wasteland
    2x Castle Locthwain
    14x Swamp

    [EDIT]: The fact that we have 8 cards that say opponent's cards are removed from the game instead of going to the graveyard and another 8 cards to combo with them which either win the game right there on the spot or severely cripple the opponent is enough for me. The aggro shell fits with the Voidwalkers as your back-up plan.

    [EDIT]: Should this have Chalice of the Void in place of Thoughtseize??
    Last edited by Laser Brains; 12-23-2021 at 12:59 AM.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  2. #2

    Re: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

    Seems like a "trying to do too many things at once pile".
    If you draw the wrong mix of cards you won't do either and you don't have Brainstorm to fix your draws.

    I'd rather lose the beatdown plan and go for tutors and more discard.
    That secures redundancy and makes sure your combo pieces are safe.
    Also blanks removal if you go for Leyline.

    I'm not sure how Voidwalker stacks with Leyline in the sense that you get to exile cards with the walker or not.
    Might be a nonbo.

    Chalice doesn't make much sense if you want to play ritual and no sol lands.
    Wasteland seems to hurt you more than your opponent.

  3. #3
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    Re: Rip Helm Gains

    With Voidwalker + Leyline, you own both replacement effects so you should get to choose which applies, right?

    Since your deck is built around cards that cost 2BB, 2B and 4, Ancient Tomb seems very good.

    Once you're on Tomb, Karn, the Great Creator looks strong. You can hide redundant Helms in the SB. Maybe 3-4 Karn main 2-3 Helm main, 1 Helm SB.

    At that point, maybe you want to build this in a Chalice stompy shell instead of with Thoughtseize and Hymn. Thoughtseize and Hymn both have anti-synergy with the IGG plan. Instead, you could build this kind of like Curses, except with IGG + Voidwalker + more Helms instead of the Curse package.

    Check out this Rich Cali article:
    https://strategy.channelfireball.com...bo-deck-guide/

  4. #4

    Re: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

    Thanks for the response guys. Honestly, not a lot of thought went into the list above. Mostly, I was intrigued with Ill-Gotten Gains with Leyline and Voidwalker. A stompy shell seems not shitty and that was sorta where I was going when mentioned Chalice.

    I'll toy around with it some more. This just seems like it should be a deck.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  5. #5

    Re: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

    It is a deck.

    Paragon249 has gotten multiple 5-0s and a second place challenge finish with this deck. Why aren’t we just copying him?

  6. #6

    Re: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    It is a deck.

    Paragon249 has gotten multiple 5-0s and a second place challenge finish with this deck. Why aren’t we just copying him?
    Probably because of the cheesy Maralen. Either that or they don't want to go full serum powder and admit it is a cheesy combo deck.....

    Being serious I have been playing a couple of different iterations in paper, and have recently come to the conclusion that the serum powder tech used in Paragon249's list is *definitely* the way to go. Maralen I am not so sold on, my paper opponents just killed it or I did not want to cast it. Sadly restrictions are back here, so I might have to wait a few weeks to jam it myself again. Paragon249 is definitely onto something though, deck is solid with plan A and B.

  7. #7
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    Re: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

    DeTH is already a deck, as is Curse Stompy. How is adding a 4 mana sorcery that puts FoW back in their hand and losing prison elements for a 7/6 in a deck that can't continue to pressure a life total progress? Hide the creatures in your manabase with Saga.

  8. #8
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    Re: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

    IGG doesn't give them cards back when you have 8 copies of "you have no graveyard". It's a 4-mana HullDay effect. Opponent discards hand, you get 3 best cards from your GY.

    The aggro and discard elements are bad, but OP's idea could extend to something like this


    //Lands: 24
    4 Urza's Saga
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    10 Swamp
    2 Hagra Mauling

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Leyline of the Void

    //Creatures: 8
    4 Dauthi Voidwalker
    4 Opposition Agent

    //Planeswalker: 4
    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    //Spells: 7
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Ill-Gotten Gains

    //Artifacts: 13
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Chrome Mox
    1 Retrofitter Foundry
    3 Trinisphere
    3 Helm of Obedience


    The question is if that is any better than going full combo with Serum Powder and the bigger Saga package.

    Let's say you have T0 Leyline and fair blue opponent countered your Helm/Karn. Next turn you cast IGG. If opponent doesn't have 2nd Force, they go Hellbent and you get back Helm/Karn -> win.
    Or you play IGG first and it draws out Force, otherwise they go Hellbent and you just discard and pick up Helm/Karn.

    You get resilience instead of goldfish consistency (Serum Powder).
    Last edited by FTW; 12-31-2021 at 06:55 AM.

  9. #9

    Re: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    IGG doesn't give them cards back when you have 8 copies of "you have no graveyard". It's a 4-mana HullDay effect. Opponent discards hand, you get 3 best cards from your GY.

    The aggro and discard elements are bad, but OP's idea could extend to something like this


    //Lands: 24
    4 Urza's Saga
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    10 Swamp
    2 Hagra Mauling

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Leyline of the Void

    //Creatures: 8
    4 Dauthi Voidwalker
    4 Opposition Agent

    //Planeswalker: 4
    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    //Spells: 7
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Ill-Gotten Gains

    //Artifacts: 13
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Chrome Mox
    1 Retrofitter Foundry
    3 Trinisphere
    3 Helm of Obedience


    The question is if that is any better than going full combo with Serum Powder and the bigger Saga package.

    Let's say you have T0 Leyline and fair blue opponent countered your Helm/Karn. Next turn you cast IGG. If opponent doesn't have 2nd Force, they go Hellbent and you get back Helm/Karn -> win.
    Or you play IGG first and it draws out Force, otherwise they go Hellbent and you just discard and pick up Helm/Karn.

    You get resilience instead of goldfish consistency (Serum Powder).
    One of the issues with this type of deck is a p/c of the time you start with Leyline, and against the right opponent it rocks, really handicapping them and it makes it very difficult to know how good your matchups are- because often without the Leyline it gives a very different match. This then gets muddied further, because it is one of those decks that in a match where you know what your opponent is on, especially with S powder in the mix, you know if you need to mull, but against an unknown opponent you don't. It makes finding an optimal build very hard.

    Personally, I always played mono b helm pre pandemic as a control deck with Leyline win (curses without the curses and more control), but since voidwalker/saga and the printing of prismatic ending that makes permanents worse, I have been heading towards a more combo list with saga. I still have a bit more control than Paragon249's list- I run thoughtseize, for those matches where you have the voidwalker and a solid hand and just want to play out without the leyline, and I have a slightly more conservative manabase with more swamps and split mox diamond/chrome mox, with mauling/saga but with just 3 ancient tomb. I do like IGG, but with a more conservative base can only run as 1 (or 2 at a push). I think the serum powder really works in more combo heavy environments where you have an ide of what your opponent is on, because a lot of combo lists do end up in a straight race and you need that Leyline, if that makes sense? The powder itself is not a dead card when drawn, and can contribute to the plan when the combo win is not available.
    Against slower fair blue decks, a big saga is often enough, and a lot of fair blue decks run Uro, or are Murktide UR decks which are not the best things to be doing against a Leyline deck anyway, I have more worry about being outraced by combo than controlled by slower fair blue lists, but that again is a local meta.

  10. #10

    Re: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

    The problem with IGG is that it is a lot worse with a Leyline effect than helm, but not much better than helm without one. So in any prison-like deck karn with a helm in the sideboard will be much better.

    The best use of a “fair” IGG is as a bargain bin yawg Will with infernal tutor, LED, and tendrils. Preferably with defence grid instead of discard for protection. But then you are Basically DETH sans thespian stage. DETH with voidwalker instead of hexmage has promise but is probably not what the OP is intending.

  11. #11
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    Re: Mono Black Rip Helm Gains

    Fair IGG is bad, in any deck. You tutor FoW+blue card+2nd disruption/cantrip to opponent's hand and get a suboptimal Storm engine. Storm hasn't wanted that card for a very long time.

    I think it's better to view the card like Day's Undoing. It's essentially a dead card on its own, but it can combo with 8 Leylines to annihilate the opponent's hand while refilling yours. You then want ways to mitigate the dead card (Chrome Mox, Underworld Cookbook?) when you don't have Leylines. Perhaps the stronger argument against it is that getting 3 cards back from the grave in a Stompy deck is a lot worse than a Draw 7 in a Xerox deck or Emry deck.

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