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Thread: NO Painter

  1. #1
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    NO Painter

    Painter's Servant on green does many things:
    1) Grindstone mills their library
    2) Natural Order can sacrifice a creature of any color to get a creature of any color (like Iona)
    3) Iona, Shield of Emeria on green -> opponent cannot cast spells
    4) Allosaurus Shepherd makes more things uncounterable
    5) Green Sun's Zenith can fetch nongreen creatures


    //Lands: 20
    4 Ancient Tomb
    9 Forest
    3 Boseiju, Who Endures
    3 Urza's Saga
    1 Dryad Arbor

    //Spells: 10
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Once Upon A Time
    3 Natural Order

    //Creatures: 21
    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Allosaurus Shepherd
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Painter's Servant
    3 Tarmogoyf
    1 Fauna Shaman
    1 Outland Liberator
    1 Endurance
    1 Questing Beast
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Progenitus

    //Artifacts: 5
    3 Grindstone
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 Currency Converter

    //Enchantments: 2
    2 Sylvan Library

    //Planeswalkers: 2
    2 Karn, the Great Creator

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Force of Vigor
    2 Choke
    2 Endurance
    1 Archon of Valor's Reach
    1 Grindstone
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Liquimetal Coating
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Ensnaring Bridge


    Turn 2 Natural Order is possible:
    T1 Forest Hierarch -> T2 Tomb NO -> Archon/Progenitus
    T1 Forest GSZ for Dryad -> T2 Tomb NO -> Archon/Progenitus

    Turn 3 Painter kill is possible:
    T1 Grindstone T2 Painter T3 activate
    T1 Saga T2 Painter T3 Saga -> Grindstone & activate
    T1 Hierarch/GSZ T2 Painter + Grindstone T3 activate

    By Turn 3 it can set up Painter + NO -> Iona on green (lock)

    You could commit more resources to mana acceleration to speed up by another turn (Lotus Petal, Mox, ESG), but the added card disadvantage would make it too easy to get blown out by disruption and too hard to recover. This configuration should provide ways to recover or win through fair beatdown.


    ThrabenU posted a video of a similar build in GW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zthQ_2yrvBA

    It splashes white for removal and SB hate. It also runs a more ambitious nongreen creature package, a more ambitious NO package (5 targets in the 75 for 2 NO), and a more ambitious Saga package (4 MD 1-ofs not including Grindstone or mana rocks). To support that it runs 4x Lotus Petal 4x Mox Opal and an unstable manabase full of nonbasics. I liked the main idea but thought some of it was too greedy at the expense of really bad topdecks and unstable mana.

    The original decklist

    //Lands: 18
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Urza's Saga
    2 Ancient Den
    2 Tree of Tales
    2 Savannah
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Boseiju, Who Endures

    //Artifacts: 16
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Grindstone
    1 Retrofitter Foundry
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 Springleaf Drum
    1 Esika's Chariot

    //Creatures: 14
    1 Allosaurus Shepherd
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Painter's Servant
    1 Outland Liberator
    1 Endurance
    1 Hullbreacher
    1 Magus of the Moon
    1 Plague Engineer
    1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Griselbrand

    //Spells: 10
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Green Sun's Zenith
    2 Natural Order

    //Enchantments: 2
    2 Sylvan Library

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Choke
    2 Force of Vigor
    2 Endurance
    1 Archon of Valor's Reach
    1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
    1 Progenitus
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Deafening Silence
    Last edited by FTW; 06-14-2022 at 05:47 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: NO Painter

    While the concept seems very spicy, it seems to rely too much on the painter without any protection or backup.
    Any hand that doesn't include either a painter or a NO (7/60) seems like a mulligan to me.
    Green offers at least Worldly Tutor while white has Enlightened Tutor to find either combo piece.

    Given that you're this vulnerable, it doesn't seem to great to not have a G1 plan against unfair decks besides conceding before they have figured out what the ll your pile is supposed to do.
    Veil of Summer seems like an autoinculde that solves a lot of your problems.

  3. #3
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    Re: NO Painter

    Good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Any hand that doesn't include either a painter or a NO (7/60) seems like a mulligan to me.
    Why?
    GSZ -> Fauna Shaman finds any creature
    OUAT/Sylvan can dig into threats
    Karn finds Grindstone, exiled Painter, Coating
    Saga + Tomb -> Currency Converter -> token beatdown

    GSZ can also create fair threats (Questing Beast, Endurance, Ooze). Maybe the deck needs more fair green threats (+3 Tarmogoyf) so it has a reasonable clock without a combo. These other lines are slow, although Tomb and Hierarch do accelerate.

    I was originally going to include 3 Veil of Summer, but it is not easy to protect the combos with (Natural Order for 2GGG, Painter + Grindstone activation for 5G). Allosaurus Shepherd and Sylvan Safekeeper fit the curve better by not demanding mana on the combo turn and having redundant copies sacrifice to NO. Maybe there needs to be even more protection like Giver of Runes or Defense Grid.

    Against unfair decks there's multiple MD GY hate, nonbasic hate, and artifact kill. Then even more combo hate in the SB. Marit Lage and Thassa's Oracle will be bad matchups, though. Veil and Mirage tutors won't fix that.

  4. #4

    Re: NO Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Good points.



    Why?
    GSZ -> Fauna Shaman finds any creature
    OUAT/Sylvan can dig into threats
    Karn finds Grindstone, exiled Painter, Coating
    Saga + Tomb -> Currency Converter -> token beatdown

    GSZ can also create fair threats (Questing Beast, Endurance, Ooze). Maybe the deck needs more fair green threats (+3 Tarmogoyf) so it has a reasonable clock without a combo. These other lines are slow, although Tomb and Hierarch do accelerate.

    I was originally going to include 3 Veil of Summer, but it is not easy to protect the combos with (Natural Order for 2GGG, Painter + Grindstone activation for 5G). Allosaurus Shepherd and Sylvan Safekeeper fit the curve better by not demanding mana on the combo turn and having redundant copies sacrifice to NO. Maybe there needs to be even more protection like Giver of Runes or Defense Grid.

    Against unfair decks there's multiple MD GY hate, nonbasic hate, and artifact kill. Then even more combo hate in the SB. Marit Lage and Thassa's Oracle will be bad matchups, though. Veil and Mirage tutors won't fix that.
    Even with GSZ you run mostly silver bullets and few threats.
    Tarmogoyf is just not a good card if you can't grow it reliably and a nonbo with Endurance if you rely on on your opponent.
    Questing Beast requires 2 Tombs or comes very late.

    To me it seems like this deck is trying to do 3 things (painter+stone,NO, beat down) while not pulling off either particularly well.
    I'd try to streamline it and get rid of the cutesy stuff:

    - Iona relies on too many things lining up for you. Also cut maybe 1 or 2 more 1-offs.
    - Going full Endurance might win enough games on its own -> no goofies
    - More Safekeepers as most of your plans rely on dudes you can't protect otherwise. Maybe that requires some kind of additional support.

    I'd keep with the 3 Boseijus as they can give you at least a possibility of winning against Depths.
    Endurance + maybe a few Veils could make the combo MU not pointless G1.

    Maybe a black splash with Ignoble Hierarch and access to Trophy/Decay and discard might also work.

  5. #5
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    Re: NO Painter

    The last time I built something like this the focus is on the green side. You want to make a functional deck that is essentially mono green with zenith’s in it. Painter just become a main creature in the deck and things like natural order become a secondary win while grindstone can be minimized or even a board plan that you may just buy draw or stumble into. The mono green plan can be very strong on its own so it doesn’t make sense to water it down to do too much.

    For reference I believe I built it around a trinity green concept years ago.
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  6. #6
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    Re: NO Painter

    Good suggestions. I should focus on the fair monogreen side and minimize the toolbox and less reliable combos.

    For Goyf the deck at least has 7 card types and 2 discard outlets (Currency Converter, Fauna Shaman), but that may not be enough. If Goyf is bad, what other low CMC green creatures should be used? Questing Beast is obviously too slow on its own without lower CMC threats. Any good 2-3 cmc tech from Sylvan Plug or Trinity Green?

    Hexdrinker is an appealing threat. It's a good threat and mana sink, and it's efficient NO fodder when needed.

    Unlicensed Hearse is an option, though it overlaps with what Endurance already covers.

    I tested a few games and drew Grindstone too often. It could easily be a 1-of with Urza's Saga in the deck, reducing dead draws.

    Iona has huge upside. For example, against combo going T2 Painter T3 NO -> Iona is the best game plan in game 1. That plan is a lot shakier vs fair decks with removal, but unfair decks won't be able to remove Painter in time, while they may be able to win through Veil or Endurance. I'm comfortable running 1 "cutesy" slot if it has the upside of "win the game this turn" and the deck has ways to convert a dead card into other cards. The risk should be low as long as it's not a big greedy package like the original list.

    Currency Converter is a bit slow. Maybe it should be Smuggler's Copter.

    Streamlined a bit


    //Lands: 20
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Urza's Saga
    3 Boseiju, Who Endures
    9 Forest
    1 Dryad Arbor

    //Spells: 10
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Once Upon A Time
    3 Natural Order

    //Creatures: 20
    4 Noble Hierarch
    2 Allosaurus Shepherd
    2 Sylvan Safekeeper
    2 Hexdrinker
    4 Painter's Servant
    1 Outland Liberator
    3 Endurance
    1 Archon of Valor's Reach
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

    //Artifacts: 2
    1 Grindstone
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern

    //Other threats: 8
    0-3 Tarmogoyf
    0-3 Worldly Tutor
    0-3 Living Wish
    0-3 Karn, the Great Creator
    0-2 Sylvan Library
    0-2 Smuggler's Copter
    0-2 Unlicensed Hearse
    0-1 Currency Converter
    0-1 Scavenging Ooze
    0-1 Fauna Shaman
    0-1 Scryb Ranger
    0-1 Skylasher
    0-1 Questing Beast
    0-2 Grist, the Hunger Tide

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Run Afoul
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Force of Vigor
    2 Choke
    1 Progenitus
    1 Pithing Needle
    3 other


    That frees up some space for threats and consistency while maintaining the core of the deck.

    What other threats would you run?

  7. #7
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    Re: NO Painter


  8. #8
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    Re: NO Painter

    I tested a few variations of this in monogreen and GW (for StP and ETutor) but it just wasn't good.

    It works better as monogreen ramp+NO (without Painter) or Saga+Tomb+Painter combo (which has more support in Red). The only thing tying the two together is Painter+NO-> Iona.

    Unfortunately there's no good tutor that gets Painter's Servant OR Natural Order, which I think is the biggest problem. A tutor that only gets only one (ETutor, Worldly Tutor, Personal Tutor) doesn't help when you're trying to combine the two and need to get the other one. I had some awkward board states where I had ETutor but couldn't use it to combo off, or I pulled off NO (without Iona) but Archon wasn't enough to win.

  9. #9
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    Re: NO Painter

    Honestly I’d probably run some of the green hate bears main. You basically run fair with potential for some game ending plays. A single sylvan safekeeper for example may be worth it depending on the creature suite. A collector ouphe may be good enough against some unfair decks. The plus side being they are still NO fodder if bad.
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  10. #10
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    Re: NO Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    Honestly I’d probably run some of the green hate bears main. You basically run fair with potential for some game ending plays. A single sylvan safekeeper for example may be worth it depending on the creature suite. A collector ouphe may be good enough against some unfair decks. The plus side being they are still NO fodder if bad.
    Unfortunately the best green hatebears are symmetrical. Collector Ouphe is awkward with Grindstone, Gaddock Teeg is awkward with Natural Order, and Scavenging Ooze is awkward with Saga+Tomb colorless lands (and Endurance is better). You could fit in Ouphe if cutting Painter, but then it's just a regular NO deck.

  11. #11
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    Re: NO Painter

    I’d consider ouphe a meta call. It’s strong enough to play 1 and it should only affect grindstone which wouldn’t be a main win con anyway. Same goes with scavenging ooze. 1 slot main that doesn’t hurt you at all can very much be worth it. Even just for freeing up side board space. Green sun zenith would be the main player so maximizing its usefulness will be worth it.
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  12. #12
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    Re: NO Painter

    Ok, so if the deck was more focused on GSZ


    //Lands: 20
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Urza's Saga
    3 Boseiju, Who Endures
    3 Windswept Heath
    6 Forest
    1 Dryad Arbor

    //Spells: 10
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Once Upon A Time
    3 Natural Order

    //Creatures: 28
    4 Ignoble Hierarch
    3 Sylvan Safekeeper
    2 Allosaurus Shepherd
    1 Hexdrinker
    4 Painter's Servant
    1 Outland Liberator
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Fauna Shaman
    1 Fiend Artisan
    1 Scryb Ranger
    1 Collector Ouphe
    3 Endurance
    1 Ramunap Excavator
    1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
    1 Archon of Valor's Reach
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Progenitus

    //Artifacts: 2
    1 Grindstone
    1 Currency Converter

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Run Afoul
    2 Force of Vigor
    2 Choke
    1 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Damping Sphere
    1 Unlicensed Hearse
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Thrun, the Last Troll
    1 Shifting Ceratops
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Endurance


    GSZ, Natural Order, Fauna Shaman and Fiend Artisan can tutor for creatures.
    Fauna Shaman and Saga->Currency Converter can fix unwanted cards in hand.

    Scryb Ranger can do cute things with mana dorks, Fauna Shaman and Fiend Artisan. It also blocks blue flyers.

    Vs Murktide: Endurance, Scryb Ranger, Run Afoul, Shifting Ceratops, Unlicensed Hearse, Choke

    Vs GY combo: Endurance, Ooze, Hearse

    Vs Artifacts: Ouphe, Liberator, Boseiju, Force of Vigor, Needle, Archon

    Vs storm combo: Thorn, Sphere, Teeg, Needle, Force of Vigor, Archon

    Vs Marit Lage: Run Afoul, Needle, Boseiju

    vs Lands: Boseiju, Endurance, Hearse, Needle

    vs blue control: Allosaurus, Endurance, Hexdrinker, Saga + Ramunap, Choke, Thrun, Needle

    vs Prison: Boseiju, Liberator, Force of Vigor, Ramunap

  13. #13
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    Re: NO Painter

    Feels a lot stronger when you have a fair deck that can just be broken at times. Honestly grindstone could even become a sideboard plan if you really are concerned about it. Game 2 it could become a 4 of so you can try to aggro/combo against opponents and thus try to maximize your unfairness.

    Regardless start with your list and feel it out. Getting games in will help direct your path.
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    Re: NO Painter

    I tested a few games. It's not good enough. If you cut back on the Grindstone plan, it's just a GSZ + NO deck, which means it plays out as a worse version of Elves. The only thing going for it is the unique space from combining Painter combo, but it lacks the tools to make that plan consistent enough. The deck's waiting for at least 1 new card that helps combine the NO and Painter plans.

    For now it's a fun meme but doesn't seem worth investing test time in over other decks.

  15. #15
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    Re: NO Painter

    Although now thinking about that old deck I played… perhaps the trinity green plan can be revived as grindstone would be a quicker kill
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    Re: NO Painter

    Trinity Green could slow down the game better and also boost the Saga/artifact plan.

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