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Thread: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

  1. #1

    First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Hello!
    Let me introduce myself, i'm a TGC player from quite a time now, but having a new group of friends playing Magic i thought it would be the right time to try that game that scared me a bit for his difficulty at first sight.

    They are playing legacy type with no restrictions at all, and even they don't have solid and competitives decks, i wanted to try to make one based on an already acknowledged archetype.

    Here's my list!

    Budget Izzet Delver

    //Creatures//
    1 Brazen Borrower
    4x Murktide Regent
    4x Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4x Delver of Secrets
    //Spells//
    4x Gitaxian Probe
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Daze
    4x Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Expressive Iteration
    1 Misdirection
    1 Dress Down
    //Lands//
    2 Izzet Boilerworks
    8 Island
    3 Mountain
    2 Steam Vents
    4 Sulfur Falls

    Gitaxian Probe // I know that card isn't playable at all. But as i said my group of friends aren't banning cards so at that moment i might play it.

    PS: Got like 200€ budget for the deck

  2. #2
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    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    What do you mean legacy with no restrictions? Like can you play dig through time and ancestral recall?
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  3. #3

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Yeah, we technically can play whatever we want. But ancestral is way too expensive for me

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    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    If you want to play paper legacy with zero dual lands, there's only really a few ways to play a optimal/near-optimal deck.

    Pathway 1 is ragequit legacy b/c you built Shadow and never stood a chance vs the Plow/Ending format.

    Pathway 2 is build DnT and have around $1200 sinkholed into a deck you can't build out of. So....you better love playing it, and just it.

    Pathway 3 is buy 4 Tarn, 4 Vista, and play 6 blue source ( so that's 4 Island, 2 Otawara or 3 island, 2 Otawara, 1 Steam Vents, or 4 Island, 1 Otawara, 1 Steam Vents), 1 Mountain, 3x Wasteland. Now you have the staples (FoW, Bstorm, Daze, Bolt, Red Blasts, etc) and can engage in useful play patterns that apply to Delver-style decks. Just know that if you build this as Ponder/vanilla Delver you will just be crappy Delver...and it won't stop being crappy until you have 4x Volc. A better idea is to immediately reach an end-stage optimal legacy deck by playing Dreadstill; this endpoint is achieved at 1x Volc, then you're ready to farm Delver.

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    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    I may lean into foil and gush as well as chain lightning then as “budget options”. No idea what the euro price point is of that, but I think it can inform the directions you may want to go. Ideally you’re going to be heavy blue with access to red so the “basic fetches” are probably going to be better then fake duals for you. That said I’m pretty certain you’d have to bite the bullet on force of wills which will crush your budget
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  6. #6

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Hi, thanks for all your answers.

    First of all, i want to specify that none of my friends got cards such as Volc, FoW, Wasteland or cards like that.
    I know i might be crushed by playing blurry decks in format like Legacy if i decided to play people with optimized decks.

    To be honest, they are more playing commanders decks that they transform into 60cards decks, and adding some features in it (Sensei divining top for exemple)

    We are in a case where they don't have what it needs to play pure Legacy format, but they are playing everything as long as it's a Magic card.

    I decided to check Legacy decks as it's the closest format to total freedom, but i don't know if an unoptimized legacy deck is 'better' than an optimized pioneer or standard deck tbf

    Don't hesitate to tell me what you would do.

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    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    In a no-ban budget Legacy format, the low-hanging fruit starts with
    4 Sol Ring
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Mind Twist
    and other big mana black haymakers.

    With access to that much mana, you're just going to get higher-power cards. You can add to it with whatever fun creatures and planeswalkers you want, playing the game with faster mana than normal. Meanwhile opponent's deck won't have Force of Will or Wasteland or Karakas to ruin your fun. I am 100% playing ramp or combo in a no FoW format.

    If you prefer to start with something that looks like a traditional Legacy deck, turn 1 combo is the most powerful thing you can play in budget Legacy circles. Belcher can be built cheaply other than LED. You can play Stomping Ground instead of Taiga with negligible difference to win%. Instead of the usual LED (Lion's Eye Diamond), you could play Pyretic Ritual, Jeska's Will or with Sol Ring if they're allowed. It's a bit slower without LED but the deck still wins fast.

    Budget Belcher
    //Initial Mana: 21
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Land Grant
    1 Stomping Ground

    //Other Mana: 20
    4 Sol Ring
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Seething Song

    //Free Spells: 8
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Manamorphose

    //Business Spells: 11
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    3 Empty the Warrens

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Goblin War Strike
    1 Irencrag Feat
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Cave-In
    1 Chain Lightning
    1 Diminishing Returns
    1 Hull Breach
    1 By Force
    1 Shattering Spree
    4 Xantid Swarm


    This has a high turn 1-2 win % in a meta with no Force of Will or City of Traitors (maybe no Force of Vigor either).

    Chrome Mox is the only expensive card. If that's still out of budget, you could try 4 Chancellor of the Tangle OR 2 Jeska's Will + 2 Street Wraith.



    Edit2: If you think combo would be unfun for your friends and prefer the fair Izzet Delver archetype, I would make some changes to your OP list. Delve cards and Brainstorm are harder to play without fetchlands. Daze is not playable without enough ways to get "Islands" on turn 1 (blue fetchland + Steam Vents + basic Island). Treasure Cruise is very strong without a banlist, although it conflicts with Murktide Regent.

    Budget UR Delver - Treasure Cruise Era

    //Creatures: 14
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    2 Murktide Regent

    //Spells: 30
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Treasure Cruise
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Daze
    2 Misdirection

    //Lands: 16
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Prismatic Vista
    2 Arid Mesa
    3 Steam Vents
    3 Island
    1 Mountain
    1 Fiery Islet

    //Rough Sideboard:
    4 Mental Misstep
    3 Foil
    2 Price of Progress


    The idea behind this is that you won't be able to disrupt as much without Force and Wasteland, but opponents won't either, so you want to play more aggressive and race. That tilts towards 16 lands and playing more 1 drops and Chain Lightning, with Probe + Treasure Cruise to refill hands. Meanwhile opponents won't have turn 1 Chalice of the Void to punish such a low curve. Swiftspear is quite strong in this set up where you want to cast cheap spells quickly. You might even get away with greed like 2 Fireblast as a finisher, instead of Misdirection.

    The SB will depend a lot on what your opponents play. Cards like Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Red Elemental Blast, Meltdown, Pyrokinesis, Smash to Smithereens, Echoing Truth, Searing Blaze, Spell Pierce may also be good depending on what opponents are playing.

    If even the fetchlands are out of budget, then I would not play Izzet Delver at all. Multiple cards get much worse (Brainstorm, Daze, Treasure Cruise, Murktide Regent... even Ponder and Delver of Secrets).
    Last edited by FTW; 06-27-2022 at 06:14 AM.

  8. #8

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    I took note and i'll check that.
    You were right tho, i don't think combo decks will be fun as it's my first deck and as cards are still quite expensive i'll stay with him for a while, and i know they'll surely tell me to put aside a combo deck for our multiplayers game.

    Thanks 10x for your time and your kindness.

    If i can add something, is that if you know a deck, even not legacy, who can add some banned cards and is quite solid and fun, i'll be happy to look at that archetype.

    I'm not only into Izzet Delver, it was juste the one i found attractive, but i think i underestimated importance of dual lands and i would have been disappointed.

  9. #9
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    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Honestly yeah I’d probably rock a yawgmoths bargain deck as well. Sol ring makes for a better grim monolith etc.
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  10. #10

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    Honestly yeah I’d probably rock a yawgmoths bargain deck as well. Sol ring makes for a better grim monolith etc.
    I got you, and from what i checked i'm pretty 100% sure the deck will just destroy them as they don't have counter cards as FTW said before..

    It's so hard to find a solid deck, but as we're talking about people who don't check internet or any list to build their deck, i assume they'll be frustrated by that kind of ramping deck they couldn't stop.

    I think i'll try to find a good one, maybe from other format, being fun and solid and add some broken cards to make him less dependent of mulligan.

    Thanks again for your help :)

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    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    So what kind of deck style are you looking to play then?

    You don't want fast broken combos, right? Do you want to play a fast aggro deck? A disruptive deck? A slow control deck? You have many options.

    If land-typed dual lands (Volcanic Island, Steam Vents) and fetchlands (Scalding Tarn, Prismatic Vista) are out of your budget, then I think you should stick to a 1 color deck. You'll save a lot of money sticking to 1 color. You will gain a lot of power by adding 4 Sol Ring to a 1-color deck, letting you accelerate to the big plays sooner. Sol Ring is so cheap that it's a great choice for your format.

  12. #12

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    This sounds like a casual play group looking to have fun.

    I would strongly recommend against creating a "banned" deck that plays full sets of cards that are not fully legal in any 60 card format. 99% chance that just ends up with you playing a bunch of boring games that you can't lose and pissing people off and/or not having fun. Then again, if a lot of people are already doing this (i.e. 4 Sol Rings) go right ahead.

    There's also no rush. You have a 200 limit on costs but no one said you need to spend it all at once. If Delver is enticing to you, I would recommend you buy the 90% of the deck that averages out to about a dollar per card and then play with it and see how you like it. Depending on what you already have on hand, you could end up spending only like 10 bucks and have a playable deck.

    Will you lose some games because you cast your DRC with a mountain and don't have Daze backup? Sure. Can you still have a ton of fun? Definitely.

    There's a lot of Legacy decks that are surprisingly cheap if you don't mind being underpowered (i.e. 90-95% of the cost is tied into 5-10% of the cards). I would take a look here and browse through the lists:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#paper
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy

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    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    There's also no rush. You have a 200 limit on costs but no one said you need to spend it all at once. If Delver is enticing to you, I would recommend you buy the 90% of the deck that averages out to about a dollar per card and then play with it and see how you like it. Depending on what you already have on hand, you could end up spending only like 10 bucks and have a playable deck.

    Will you lose some games because you cast your DRC with a mountain and don't have Daze backup? Sure. Can you still have a ton of fun? Definitely.
    It's not just that. Many card choices in the deck don't make sense in the budget version.

    Brainstorm is bad without fetchlands. Ponder gets worse too. Preordain could be better.

    Daze is bad without the usual 14 "island" (8 blue fetch + 6 blue dual/Island OR mono-Island), since Daze is best early and gets worse as the game goes longer (especially without Wasteland). He'll have a hard time making a budget manabase with both stable mana and T1 Island. Either he'll have problems getting red mana, or he'll have a shortage of Islands, or he'll have too many tapped lands (tempo loss negates effect of Daze).

    Delve cards like Murktide Regent/Treasure Cruise are harder to support without fetches

    Dragon's Rage Channeler has a harder time reaching Delirium without lands putting themselves in the yard (fetches + Wasteland). It's still good, but you have to work that much harder to get enough card types in. Especially with Murktide eating your graveyard.

    Without Force of Will+Force of Negation to answer problems, you probably want Spell Pierce and to tap out less often (tapping out for sorcery Expressive Iteration is riskier). You may need a different disruptive strategy altogether. For example, a simple 2/4 reach spider will be a big headache and the deck won't have Wasteland/Daze/Force to punish midrange plays.

    Pyroblast only makes sense in the Tier 1 Legacy meta dominated by Force+Brainstorm decks. It's not maindeckable in casual, probably not even worth SB spots.

    It looks like you can just cut the expensive cards and play the same shell, but the deck runs into problems because of the mechanics enabled by those expensive cards. The mechanics and strategy change. When the mechanics and strategy underperform, the deck won't be as fun either.

    It would be better to start with a Pauper deck and then power it up. At least then you know the core mechanics of the deck work.

    Edit: Here's a Pauper Tier 1 UR deck https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...-faeries#paper

    //Lands: 20
    11 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Mountain
    4 Volatile Fjord
    3 Ash Barrens

    //Creatures: 18
    4 Faerie Seer
    4 Spellstutter Sprite
    3 Augur of Bolas
    1 Moon-Circuit Hacker
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
    2 Crimson Fleet Commodore

    //Spells: 22
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Skred
    3 Brainstorm
    3 Preordain
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Counterspell
    1 Exclude
    1 Fire // Ice


    Notice how they have a plan better built around the available budget mechanics. Preordain instead of Ponder, and fewer copies of Brainstorm to reduce risk of Brainstorm locks. There's Skred to answer bigger midrange creatures. Counterspell, Spellstutter and Spell Pierce to replace Force and Daze.
    You could start with that and then make some upgrades. Crimson Fleet Commodore, Exclude, and Fire//Ice are the easiest cuts.

    Edit: 2 Brazen Borrower seems good. It answers cards UR struggles to answer, it's a flash flyer for Ninjas, it's a Faerie for Spellstutter, and it does well being returned to hand.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-28-2022 at 12:50 AM.

  14. #14

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    That's definitely true. I was going to recommend he make a build with Preordains and Counter Spell / Spell Pierce / Spell Snare in place of Brainstorm and FOW. I'd also suggest looking at cards like Sprite Dragon, Dreadhorde Arcanist, Ethereal Forager, and Stormwing Entity. Daze is more debatable because you can still go T1 Island -> Delver -> Go. Again, he's playing in a casual playgroup not in a Legacy tournament.

    There's no debate that you lose a ton of synergies without the expensive cards but its not like the deck straight doesn't function. It just ends up being slower. Albeit, in a tempo strategy that is a bigger problem since you will end up losing to fair-midrange who will go over the top of you. Ultimately, UR tempo is viable in almost every format.

    Looking at Pauper Faeries for inspiration is a great idea. I'd also recommend checking out Spirits from Pioneer and Explorer for another tempo strategy:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...-spirits#paper
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...-spirits#paper

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    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    It just ends up being slower. Albeit, in a tempo strategy that is a bigger problem since you will end up losing to fair-midrange who will go over the top of you.
    This is the #1 problem.

    UR's only plan is to be the most efficient and race. That's because UR lacks lategame tools. UW and UB scale better into the lategame, but UR's Lightning Bolt and Daze look worse and worse beyond the early turns as opponent develops mana and goes over the top. In a casual meta (60 card commander), you expect a lot of fair midrange. Even more if Sol Ring is legal. If UR loses tempo to bad mana and its creatures take longer to enable, opponent will just go over the top with random fair stuff.

    That's a fundamental weakness of UR. It needs to race. When you compromise the efficiency, it loses its best strategic advantage. Even moreso when you also remove its tools to slow down big decks (no FoW, no Wasteland, weakened Daze). If it takes 1 turn longer to turn on Murktide and DRC without fetchlands, that extra turn could be the difference for midrange to stabilize.

    I joke about Giant Spider, but even that is a problem when you lose Wasteland + Force + Daze, are slow enough to let them play it, and only have Bolt as removal. You need an alternate strategy to adapt to opponent going over the top.

    Pauper UR does that with Counterspell and Skred. Pauper UR accepts that it can't be as efficient as Full Price Legacy UR, so it adapts with answers that scale better as the game goes on. I think that's what OP will have to do. OP won't be able to rely on Full Price UR's power to exploit tempo. But when you're on Counterspell and Spell Pierce, you can't tap out as greedily as FoW decks can, you need to leave untapped blue mana. That means sorcery speed tap-out card draw like Expressive Iteration gets awkward and you prefer instant speed card draw or draw tacked on creatures. All of that leads to building in a different direction than Full Price Legacy UR.

    Or OP could play different colors. UW tools scale better as opponent plays bigger threats: Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, Banishing Light, Day of Judgment. So UW doesn't need to worry about racing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    Daze is more debatable because you can still go T1 Island -> Delver -> Go. Again, he's playing in a casual playgroup not in a Legacy tournament.
    In monoblue that's fine. The Spirit decks are monoblue, easier to do with budget mana. They could run Daze.

    In UR, you need all three:
    a) enough Islands for T1 Island (14 usually, 12 min)
    b) enough R sources to play the red cards. More if you want T1 red creature or T2 UR creature
    c) not too many tapped lands, otherwise you lose the tempo gained by opponent playing around Daze

    A and B are in direct conflict. Dual lands help bridge the gap, but if you play budget duals then they either don't count as "Island" (fails A) or they enter tapped (fails C).

    Add to that Daze is bad lategame, especially without Wasteland mana denial. In OP's casual playgroup everyone will learn to play around Daze. Unless OP is also fast, opponent can play around Daze without penalty and leave OP with dead cards in hand. The loss of tempo hurts Daze. Even in casual, it's not fun when a deck can't do its thing or loses to internal inconsistency.

    What would your budget manabase with Daze look like? Would that mana also be able to cast T1 DRC?

  16. #16

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Quote Originally Posted by VlaeKD View Post
    ... for our multiplayers game.
    So, you will be playing both 1v1 and multiplayer, or multiplayer only? Because Delver (and other tempo decks) kind of sucks in multiplayer.
    In general, the "real" Legacy decks are not meant to be fun to play against. They are supposed to be mean to the opponent, ideally not letting him play his cards at all :-)
    You might be better off starting with a Modern deck and then removing some expensive cards and maybe adding in a few older cards that you like - Modern decks tend to be a little more "fair".

  17. #17

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    WoW, first of all thanks again, i didn't expect such number of answers.
    Seems like you need a bit of context to be able to help me better so here we are :

    - I'm a competitive player but they are my friends and i don't want to break them (and i checked mono black ramp with dark ritual etc.. and i'm sure that if i play a turn 2 big threat they'll just cry and ask me to change)

    -As a Hearthstone 'competitive' player (had the chance to do 2x IEM Katowice qualifier) i can say i was more into control/combo deck (good draw, spells and few monsters) but winning with a card saying that i win (Second sun) wasn't funny for them so i did not go into Lotus combo.
    Control, spells were why i was going into Izzet Delver in a first place

    - As they aren't banning cards i think i would like to add broken cards to minimize rng (like dig, or the card that allow you to check first deck card of your opponent then draw for a blue mana or 2 life)

    - We're playing lot of things (1v1, Battleroyal, or 2v2)

    As i'm not only waiting for your answers i did some researches and i found white cards quite interesting too (Balance, the card that allows you to exile a creature for 1 white mana etc...)

    Although, i already bought Otawara (because of orignal idea of Lotus Combo, but maybe will i sell it?) , Brainstorm, Daze and Ponder because i liked blue control but i'm struggling finding 'winning path' by just going blue.

    EDIT : Read everything. I'll take a loot at Pauper UR! I agree with you that a lot of decks are turning around mid-range aggro and a too slow deck will be a problem.
    The thing is that even with quite lot of researches, i don't know much about cards synergies and i don't have enough knowledge to : take a legacy deck that i convert into a cheaper version, or take a modern/pioneer deck that i upgrade with banned cards.

    Let me know if you got a deck idea, even not fully powered who could fill theses requirements, all your messages were useful as never :)

    Edit 2 : Spirits deck looking good too, maybe will it be possible to upgrade it with some banned cards? (Sol ring/Brainstorm?) Or would it be just a synergy break adding them?

    Edit 3 : Maybe an Azorius spirit deck with some juicy blue cards and white cards from unbanned?
    Last edited by VlaeKD; 06-28-2022 at 11:41 AM.

  18. #18

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Sol Ring isn't that amazing in Spirits since most of the cards have heavy color requirements but T2 Collected Company is juicy if you play UG or Bant. If you want a Sol Ring deck look at these for inspiration:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...on-aggro#paper
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...y-8-cast#paper
    https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/soldiers...utarou-1384466
    https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/green-po...angers-1401015

    You can make pretty nice budget versions of any of these.

  19. #19
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    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    Could always build enchantress. It will be budget friendly and give you options on how crazy you want to go
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  20. #20

    Re: First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

    I'll not be able to change correctly a 1000$+ into a 200$ good copy with my actual knowledge :(


    If you were me, what archetype would you play ? Even if there is not banned cards in it? I don't wanna stay with an idea who just canot work without expensive cards and being delusional.

    Just keeping a correct, fun and versatile deck with 200% budget and no ban :)

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