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Thread: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

  1. #141
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by jfb1337 View Post
    (Note that for those here from the 3CB subreddit, this rule is different from the rule used over there)
    How does it work there?

  2. #142

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    How does it work there?
    Randomness works against the owner rather than the controller

  3. #143

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    The round 2 has started and the rules are:
    1) each round, cards would be banned to prevent an identical strategy as any deck that have been scoring over 3 SP. Banning system to be re-discussed after round 3.
    2) if you play a card on the banning list, your deck is illegal.
    I like those Ban rules. I trust your judgement to choose those cards.

  4. #144

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    11 Wrath of Pie Forbidden Orchard, Flailing Soldier, Archangel's Light, Blinkmoth Infusion GT 11
    My 2/2 Soldier doesn't race your 2/2 Ogre + 1/1 Spirit, but your Ogre would die if it attacks, and then my two 1/1 Spirits can't get in. DD
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    44 - WW
    13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins, Heartless Summoning, Flailing Ogre GT 14 - DD - I wasn't expecting a Flailing Ogre sighting! We actually stare, because Heartless Summoning kills Spirits from Forbidden Orchard, but the result is the same.

  5. #145

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Too bad forbidden orchard was banned round 1; as I had a very silly idea involving it that had a GT in the 1000s that would have required writing a program to calculate precisely.

  6. #146
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    Aha, I was thinking I needed to use my other land to take counters off of Mage-Ring Network but I don't, will remove 2 turns from every calculation:

    Make 7 mana with Mage-Ring Network + Land Cap on my turn 14, play Diamond Kaleidoscope and activate making 1 Prism token. After that I need to activate the Kaleidoscope another 21 times so that I can sacrifice 2 Prisms to make GG and keep 20 creatures for Epic Struggle. The first 20 times I need to store 3 mana and use Kaleidoscope (which involves tapping). Each of those takes 6 turns. Putting me to turn 140 to get to 21 Prisms. Then I take 10 turns to build 5 mana with Mage-Ring Network + Land Cap to create the 22nd Prism while leaving me 2 mana to cast Epic Struggle (along with 2 Prisms) on my turn 150, winning on my turn 151

    That puts me to GT 151, which means I W vs dte but all other results are the same
    I've got GT143.

    Doesn't affect any matchups, but the math may matter in future rounds?

    You can always remove colorless mana on the turn that Land Cap stays tapped. At the end, you can tap lands for mana without charging.
    T2 charge 1 counter
    T4 2 counters
    T6 3 counters
    T8 4 counters
    T9 cast Diamond Kaleidoscope (0 counters)
    T10 1 counter
    T12 2 counters
    T14 3 counters
    T15 make 0/1 Prism (0 counters)
    ...
    T141 make 22nd Prism (6 turns per prism)
    T142 Tap both lands normally & sacrifice 2 prisms: 1UGG. Cast Epic Struggle.
    T143 win on upkeep

    dte thought in the 130s because I originally submitted the same deck with different lands and math, but my lands were slightly faster. You must use Prisms for GG, which is a bit slower.

  7. #147

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by jfb1337 View Post
    Too bad forbidden orchard was banned round 1; as I had a very silly idea involving it that had a GT in the 1000s that would have required writing a program to calculate precisely.
    I'm interested in what this is, but I assume the other cards are relevant tech, so I'll try to remember this when the season ends.

    Lotus Petal being banned did sadden me a bit, if only because that means I can't build a hand to specifically beat it and virtually nothing else because it wasn't top three. (This probably means that dte was wise to ban it, naturally.)

  8. #148

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
    13 Silkster Timberland Ruins, Timberland Ruins, Heartless Summoning, Flailing Ogre GT 14 - DD - I wasn't expecting a Flailing Ogre sighting! We actually stare, because Heartless Summoning kills Spirits from Forbidden Orchard, but the result is the same.
    Oh, that's hilarious. Thanks for pointing it out. I wondered for a moment if Heartless Summoning would mess with anything, but I couldn't think of anything and promptly forgot about it. It's unfortunate that I can just hold the 2 mana to kill the soldier. I almost had the perfect counter to Forbidden Orchard.

  9. #149

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Reepicheep, shouldn’t I LL to you (WW with deck swap) in round 1? Either I play Flailing Soldier and you kill it and then Covetous Urge it from my GY, or I don’t play Flailing Soldier and you Covetous Urge it from my hand. Once you have my soldier in play I can’t kill it with a mere Lotus petal. I don’t think that Covetous urge being unable to work on Phage actually lets you off the hook — or am I missing something?

  10. #150

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Reepicheep, shouldn’t I LL to you (WW with deck swap) in round 1? Either I play Flailing Soldier and you kill it and then Covetous Urge it from my GY, or I don’t play Flailing Soldier and you Covetous Urge it from my hand. Once you have my soldier in play I can’t kill it with a mere Lotus petal. I don’t think that Covetous urge being unable to work on Phage actually lets you off the hook — or am I missing something?
    Yeah, that's right. Most of us missed that at first, but when RoosterCocoa noticed I thought they changed them all, but it seems that yours was missed. I went ahead and changed it now. Fortunately, this doesn't change any bans or the top 3 decks (not that we would change it now that the next round is already open).

  11. #151

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Reepicheep, shouldn’t I LL to you (WW with deck swap) in round 1? Either I play Flailing Soldier and you kill it and then Covetous Urge it from my GY, or I don’t play Flailing Soldier and you Covetous Urge it from my hand. Once you have my soldier in play I can’t kill it with a mere Lotus petal. I don’t think that Covetous urge being unable to work on Phage actually lets you off the hook — or am I missing something?
    Huh, I also didn't notice urge can hit graveyards. This means my casting One with Nothing doesn't give me a draw after all and I should get 4 more points in that match. I believe this bumps me from tied for 5th to regular 5th. I updated the sheet.

  12. #152
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    24 h remaining, and missing only Silkster and Raketenudo!

  13. #153

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    24 h remaining, and missing only Silkster and Raketenudo!
    I just submitted.

    I like the creativity that this season has been offering and I'm worried that the decks that I didn't submit might not be usable again later. Oh well, I'm sure other silly things will come up. I'm still blown away by Treasure Map + Hallowed Ground, both cards I know (I even own several copies of one of them), but I just wasn't going to think of it. Likewise for Copy Enchantment + Detection Tower + Covetous Urge.

    Also, I just noticed that Roiling Vortex passed the ban threshold in the update. Obviously it's way past banning now, but I wonder if it should be banned for round 3.

    Edit from 3 hours later: I was afraid of submitting early and revealing my ideas and then finding something better. I wasn't even trying to think of a better deck, but I just napped and dreamt of a deck that was much better... for round 1.
    Last edited by silkster; 08-22-2022 at 06:16 PM.

  14. #154
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    As far as I can see, not a single submission out of the 15 I received is a deck that is able to win vs 4 x wastes.
    I think it is problem, leading to a lot of draws. With your scores, could you please rank these 3 options using "=", ">", "<"?
    A. no change, I disagree it is a problem.
    B. Has to beat 3 target decks instead of 1.
    C. Decks have to beat 4 x wastes additionally to 1 of the target decks.
    D. Other solution (say which).
    I am personally on: B=C>>A

    And here are all the decks!
    Also fill here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1710229930

    dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
    Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
    Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
    GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
    FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
    jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
    FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
    Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
    Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
    Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
    RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
    BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
    silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
    Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45

  15. #155

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Ban wastes. Too stronk

  16. #156
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
    Me, on an unimaginative 2CB deck.

    Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
    6-0. You kill me with hollow trees.
    6

    Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
    2-2, mirror.
    8

    GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
    2-2. You steal my drifter, but cannot keep it. Ballsy to play a T1 deck!
    10

    FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
    2-2. You can steal my drifter, but cannot keep it.
    Edit: 6-0, I lost after trying to win by playing two turns in a row and failing to win.
    12

    jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
    6-0. My worst fears are to be forced to play a pact.
    18

    FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
    6-0, Mortivore beats me.
    24

    Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
    2-2, You can steal my drifter, but cannot keep it.
    26

    Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
    6-0. You command the pact.
    32

    Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
    6-0. You animate my drifter and kill me with it.
    38

    RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
    2-2 I guess?
    40

    BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
    2-2. You cannot prevent me to make a token, but you can prevent a second one.
    42

    silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
    0-6. Drifter is too fast :/
    42

    Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
    6-0, death by Imp
    48
    Edit:52

  17. #157

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    As far as I can see, not a single submission out of the 15 I received is a deck that is able to win vs 4 x wastes.
    I think it is problem, leading to a lot of draws. With your scores, could you please rank these 3 options using "=", ">", "<"?
    A. no change, I disagree it is a problem.
    B. Has to beat 3 target decks instead of 1.
    C. Decks have to beat 4 x wastes additionally to 1 of the target decks.
    D. Other solution (say which).
    I am personally on: B=C>>A
    Honestly, the draws are not a problem because it's a feature.

    (Also, this is the real reason Backbuild is dumb, because what you have to beat is debated ad nauseam and there is no real solution other than "don't play Backbuild.")

  18. #158
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Honestly, the draws are not a problem because it's a feature.

    (Also, this is the real reason Backbuild is dumb, because what you have to beat is debated ad nauseam and there is no real solution other than "don't play Backbuild.")
    I don't see why we cannot try to improve on that :)

  19. #159
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)

    dte (TO): You have a creature. WW 0-6
    Wrath of Pie: I can't win. You have more lands and can store long enough to pay Hall's upkeeps. LL 6-0
    Symbi: You have a creature. WW 0-6
    GoblinSmashmaster: You can cast my Satyr and win. LL 6-0
    FourDogsinaHorseSuit : If you don't cast Invocation, I can't win. DD 2-2
    jfb1337: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
    Alphastryk: You can cast my Satyr and win. LL 6-0
    Reeplcheep: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
    Dooey: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
    RoosterCocoa: I can avoid losing by playing a land. DD 2-2
    BirdsOfParadise: Clever deck! If you play Cluster, you have 1 token and I have 3. If you don't, I Ostracize Street Wraith and win with Mortivore. WW 0-6
    silkster: I can't deal you any damage. LL 6-0
    Asthereal: Imp returns? I did not metagame for this! Turn 3 Ostracize races your Imp and I win. WW 0-6

    This LL against just about every remaining deck from last week (except the ones scoring <1 pt). Did not expect to see Teferi's Imp again!!

    34 points (8 loss, 10 draw, 8 win)

    I vote for B. I think it will lead to more interesting decks than just targeting 1 land in 1 of 3 decks.

  20. #160

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
    Forbidden Orchard means this is the only round Word of Command would work. I ran it for the memes even if would probably result in ties. All I can do is force you to play 2 of your cards.

    I think the quirk of forbidden orchard is why there were so many GT N/A decks and we won’t see it as much in future rounds. A>B>>C. Scoring already punishes DD & DD over WW & LL. Also, preemptively banning the other flailing creature made these types of decks much less risky.

    dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
    I force you to pact. WW 0-6

    Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
    I can’t force you to cast living plane if you don’t tick up trees. DD 2-2

    Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
    See below.

    GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
    I’m still confused how mana crypt works when I force them to cast it.

    FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
    I’m not sure how this beats the sample deck since you will always expert with converge = 0.

    jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
    Word of Command is too strong when opponents have a bunch of pacts. WW 0-6

    FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
    Nice anti meta deck. DD 2-2

    Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
    DD 2-2

    Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
    A nice anti meta deck. DD 2-2

    RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
    I make you piracy yourself. I don’t see how this beats the sample decks if they play a land but don’t tap it. DD 2-2?

    BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
    It takes me 2 WoC s to force you to play out your mana. But I have more mana than you. DD 2-2

    silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
    Cabal pit means I can’t beat barbed wire. LL 6-0

    Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
    I can’t stop the imp. LL 0-6

    4W 12 D 4 L for 24/60 ?

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