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Thread: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

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    4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    4 Card Blind Season 13 : backbuild bannathon!

    One of these decks needs to be beaten (WW, or LL after trading decks) this round:
    The decks to beat for R will thus be one of these four:
    Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher
    Joten Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counciler
    Sapazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
    Doubling CUbe, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon, Mage-Ring Network, Fall of the titans

    You need to WW against one of these two as well as against 4x Wastes

    next deadline is Tuesday October 4th at 19h CEST.



    4CB tournaments were very well organised by Asthereal for 12 seasons. Here is plenty (330 pages!) to read about it: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...2-4-Card-Blind

    I will try to organise the thirteenth season, and not make too much of a mess of it.
    This season, we play 8 rounds of Vintage backbuild Bannathon, doing our worse. Indeed, we get points by losing games! Yet, our matches are calculated as usual, each deck doing its best to win.
    In doubt, consider everything is normal, except decks are swapped with each opponent before the match.

    Banlist
    The full list is presented in the second and third posts of this thread, accessible via my signature.

    Deadline every Tuesday at 19h CEST (Central European Summer Time).

    Sending in your deck
    Here it is slightly different from previous rounds, as two more info need to be present: the goldfish turn (GT) or your deck (at which turn do you win against no interaction), and how do you beat the target deck.
    You send your deck for the round via PM to the tournament organizer, which (for now) is me: dte.
    Please send your deck as follows (enter relevant season number, round number, username):

    Subject: 4CB S13R01 deck
    (4CB so I know what it's about / S13R01 means Season 13 Round 1, please adjust accordingly)
    username, decklist with tags, GT. Comma separated so I can paste it into excel.

    dte, Black lotus, channel, Lich's Mirror, Pox, GT1
    Legality: my deck is faster and not disrupted by the target deck, which has GT202: Leyline of Sanctity,noxious revival,Veldt,Helix Pinnacle

    (I prefer to receive the cards in card tags, and in this way of presenting: {cards}cardname1{/cards}, {cards}cardname2{/cards}, {cards}cardname3{/cards}, {cards}cardname4{/cards}, but with [] instead of {}. If you send the deck this way, I can copy and paste quickly.

    Never hesitate to send your deck much in advance!
    You can always change it later on by sending me a new PM.


    The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal. You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 13 here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1710229930

    Participation is entirely voluntary, and all you can win is bragging rights. We do this for fun. If you missed a round, or want to enter mid-season, no problem. You can (re-)enter in any round. All you missed was some fun.


    Standings for season 13:
    18,2 BirdsOfParadise
    16,8 Symbi
    15,7 Wrath of Pie
    15,7 Silkster
    14 RoosterCocoa
    13,2 Reeplcheep
    11,5 FTW
    11 GoblinSmashmaster
    10,9 jfb1337
    10,8 dte (TO)
    9,3 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
    9,2 Dooey
    8,6 alphastryk
    5,9 Asthereal
    2,9 Raketenudo


    Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the 13th season:
    - Decks and discussion for round 8
    - Decks and discussion for round 7: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1102166
    - Decks and discussion for round 6: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1101944
    - Decks and discussion for round 5: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1101799
    - Decks and discussion for round 4: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1101683
    - Decks and discussion for round 3: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1101561
    - Decks and discussion for round 2: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1101391
    - Decks and discussion for round 1 : https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1101209


    HOW 4 CARD BLIND WORKS
    All participants create a legal 4 card deck, and send it to the tournament organizer via PM before the deadline, but after the organizer has officially started the round.
    After the deadline has expired, the tournament organizer posts all decks on the forum, and participants get to figure out who wins against who, and post results.
    Every participant posts results for every opponent, so that everybody gets to cross-check their results and agree on the outcome. When in doubt, the community will help.
    All participants play one game on the play and one on the draw against every other participant in that round. A win gets you 3 points, a draw is worth 1 point. Except in backbuild, where a win nets you 0, and a loss 3 points.
    This means if you win on the play and score a draw when on the draw, you will score 3 + 1 = 4 points against that particular opponent (or 1 point in backbuild).
    The tournament organizer will add all scores and create a scoring table for the round, which will show who did the best in that particular round.
    We will try to play a round every week. Every round the participants send in a new deck, hoping to out-smart the others.
    Note: The tournament organizer (me) also plays along. Before each round starts, he sends his own deck to himself via PM.
    Afterwards, he posts on the forum that the round can start, and only then, other participants may send in their decks for the round.

    You can read much more of it and see exemples here: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...2-4-Card-Blind
    Otherwise, don't hesitate to ask a question, on this thread or via PM!


    The games go as follows
    - You start with all four cards from your deck in your opening hand, and play from there.
    - You don't lose the game for having to draw a card when you can't, rest stays the same as in regular MtG, e.g. if a card ends up in your library, you will draw it next draw step.
    - Random effects always have the effect that is most favorable to the opponent.
    - Every player always plays optimally. If anyone finds a better line, that line is played.


    Loops
    4CB by its nature violates several ideas behind regular Magic. One of them is the idea that games should never get 'stuck'. In regular Magic you will eventually draw your library and lose, for instance. In 4CB we lose that failsafe, and since we play with only four cards, we get stuck all the time, for instance if both players have a Greenbelt Rampager in play, and attacking becomes pointless. Another way you can get stuck is if one player has an action they can perform every turn in order to prevent the opponent for doing anything, like tapping a land every turn with Rishadan Port. Technically, this would fall under the ruling of a "loop". These can occur across turns, and the regular Magic rules say you can't eternally perform a loop containing a voluntary action. Instead you have to choose a number. This doesn't fit with the main rule of 4CB that says every player always plays optimally. Because when you need to tap a land eternally to stop something from getting cast, there is no optimal number except infinite. Getting stuck is part of 4CB, so we don't worry about it too much, but we can't ignore the loop rule completely, because otherwise a player would be able to activate Nomads en-Kor infinitely just to force a draw.
    So we will be using the following rule:
    If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a single turn, then an optimal number is determined for the loop to repeat, and after the loop has been repeated that number of times, it will stop.
    If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely across multiple turns, that loop may continue indefinitely, even if that would lead to a draw. So Time vault,voltaic key,plains,city of traitors can DD against any deck that present no win or interaction before T3.
    Last edited by dte; 10-04-2022 at 01:29 PM.

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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Opening of first round!


    THE FIRST ROUND OF SEASON 13: VINTAGE BACKBUILD BANNATHON has started.

    I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 1, so you can start sending me your decks.

    DEADLINE: Tuesday the 16th of August at 19:00 Central European Summer Time.

    PLEASE NOTE:
    The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
    Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Plains, Forest, Shivan Gorge.
    So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S13R01 in the topic.
    Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet.

    After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
    If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

    Happy deckbuilding!

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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Thanks for organizing this season!

    The google docs link appears to be broken for me

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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    Thanks for organizing this season!

    The google docs link appears to be broken for me
    Thanks!

    That is because I did not make one yet, hence the "when I got one running". I kept the text stolen from Asthereal to have a placeholder once I got one :)
    I intend to ask Asthereal how he does it rather than figuring it by myself, and thought it did not matter before the deadline of round 1.

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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Wooh!

    I got a terrible deck for you all to crush.

    Also: nice "DTB".
    The decks should get progressively "better", so this looks to become an interesting season.
    I think this might be more interesting than just 8 rounds, but we'll see. We can always adjust or expand.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Thanks!

    That is because I did not make one yet, hence the "when I got one running". I kept the text stolen from Asthereal to have a placeholder once I got one :)
    I intend to ask Asthereal how he does it rather than figuring it by myself, and thought it did not matter before the deadline of round 1.
    That makes total sense, I just blindly clicked assuming it would work

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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    That is because I did not make one yet, hence the "when I got one running". I kept the text stolen from Asthereal to have a placeholder once I got one :)
    I intend to ask Asthereal how he does it rather than figuring it by myself, and thought it did not matter before the deadline of round 1.
    Honestly, I usually just copy the old spreadsheet and delete all irrelevant stuff. You keep the table, banned list and one round. The rest can go.
    In the table tab you want to keep the code in the middle bit, because someone else made that and I don't know how to do that.
    For the rest you just copy a tab for a round, call it Round X, which should correspond with the top bar in the Table tab, and then make sure players are in the right order.
    The rest mostly works by itself right now.

    PS. Holy sh!t, the old thread got over 800.000 views! That's insane.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  9. #9

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    I was assuming the initial target deck was going to be a literal goldfish, so I have a few ideas that are in fact too slow to be legal.
    Managed to adapt one to be fast enough to win.

    Also, here's my joke idea, that was never going to be anywhere close to working; due to needing a 5th card that is also a conspiracy; along with arbitrarily many basic lands outside the game:
    Aggressive mining, Battle of wits, Pull from eternity, Soldevi Digger, Sovereign's Realm

  10. #10

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Do I need lands?
    Or is a deck of four goblin pikers legal?

  11. #11

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Do I need lands?
    Or is a deck of four goblin pikers legal?
    Welcome! And it's a bit buried in the first post, but for this round your deck needs to beat Leyline of Sanctity, Noxious Revival, Veldt, Helix Pinnacle both on the play and the draw.

  12. #12

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Does playing optimally include perfect knowledge of my hand?
    Like let's say my opponent has an unconditional counter spell and a conditional kill spell.
    I play treacherous pit-dweller with a brand in hand. If my op knows about the brand they'll use the counter spell, but if they don't they'll use the kill spell to trigger the undying on Pit Dweller. So the optimal play here is dependant on my op knowing my deck.

  13. #13

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa View Post
    Welcome! And it's a bit buried in the first post, but for this round your deck needs to beat Leyline of Sanctity, Noxious Revival, Veldt, Helix Pinnacle both on the play and the draw.
    Thanks!

  14. #14

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Does playing optimally include perfect knowledge of my hand?
    Like let's say my opponent has an unconditional counter spell and a conditional kill spell.
    I play treacherous pit-dweller with a brand in hand. If my op knows about the brand they'll use the counter spell, but if they don't they'll use the kill spell to trigger the undying on Pit Dweller. So the optimal play here is dependant on my op knowing my deck.
    Yes, there is no hidden information, all information is public. Including hands, decklists, order of libraries, face-down cards like morph, even choices made during resolution of an effect; e.g. when resolving a Show and tell the non-active player knows what the active player put in.

  15. #15

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Alright, deck away

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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa View Post
    Welcome! And it's a bit buried in the first post, but for this round your deck needs to beat Leyline of Sanctity, Noxious Revival, Veldt, Helix Pinnacle both on the play and the draw.
    It was indeed buried, I made it more visible and will change it for each round.

    There are already seven submissions, and quite inventive decks!
    Now I am a little bit less happy with my submission :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    PS. Holy sh!t, the old thread got over 800.000 views! That's insane.
    Thanks fo the help!
    And yes, quite insane, I think you can be quite proud of it :)

  17. #17

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    How are season points determined? Is it points divided by number of players?

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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by jfb1337 View Post
    How are season points determined? Is it points divided by number of players?
    Yes indeed. Or you can consider it the average score you got for the round.

  19. #19

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    There are already seven submissions, and quite inventive decks!
    Now I am a little bit less happy with my submission :/
    Wow, that's a lot of really early submissions, and with over three weeks to go!

    I will need some time to think cause I don't even remember the last time I did a backbuild (the one round of it we did with Asthereal was the one round I missed). For a while I was even considering it in my head with the variant where you're still trying to win but there's a deck that you must 0-6 against.

    Also, I for one welcome our new overlord! I wonder if having to make a deck so early will disrupt your reign, and perhaps Asthereal with time to think might rise to the top.
    Last edited by silkster; 08-04-2022 at 09:03 AM.

  20. #20

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Does the dungeon mechanic work in 4CB?

    On one hand, the dungeons are technically cards that get brought into the game from outside the game. On the other hand, they're always available in every game (and the physical dungeon cards act like tokens in that you don't need to have the real thing with you, just be able to represent its state).

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