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Thread: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

  1. #461

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Wait are the flailers legal again?

  2. #462

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    For R6:
    5,3 Symbi
    5,3 BirdsOfParadise
    4,7 RoosterCocoa
    4,4 silkster
    3,8 Wrath of Pie
    3,3 FTW
    2,4 dte (TO)
    2,2 jfb1337
    1,6 GoblinSmashmaster
    1,6 Dooey
    0,5 Asthereal
    0,0 Reeplcheep
    0,0 FourDogsinaHorseSuit

    Overall season:
    23,1 BirdsOfParadise
    22,1 Symbi
    20,1 Silkster
    19,5 Wrath of Pie
    18,7 RoosterCocoa
    14,8 FTW
    13,2 Reeplcheep
    13,1 jfb1337
    12,8 dte (TO)
    12,6 GoblinSmashmaster
    10,8 Dooey
    9,3 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
    8,6 alphastryk
    6,6 Asthereal
    2,9 Raketenudo
    Question: At the end of R5 (see post #403 on p. 21), I had 18.2 and Symbi had 16.8, so I was leading by 1.4. In R6, Symbi and I gained equal points, but the lead has narrowed to 1.0. How can that be?

    Sometimes an error gets corrected in a spreadsheet and then numbers stored in other locations (for example in post #403) donít get updated because that would be a lot of trouble. That is, maybe I was only ever up by 1.4 because of an error. Could that have happened?

    Edit: Okay, sounds good, dte. I see now that Asthereal pointed out an error in the BoP/dte scores for R5 after you posted the standings for R5. Four points divided by twelve players would account for the discrepancy, with some rounding error. Case closed.

  3. #463
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Question: At the end of R5 (see post #403 on p. 21), I had 18.2 and Symbi had 16.8, so I was leading by 1.4. In R6, Symbi and I gained equal points, but the lead has narrowed to 1.0. How can that be?

    I realize that sometimes an error gets corrected in a spreadsheet and then numbers that were posted in the past donít get updated because that would be a lot of work... maybe thatís what happened?
    Maybe, I report the numbers from the spreadsheet at the moment I post, I don't correct the standings post afterwards.

  4. #464

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Wait are the flailers legal again?
    That would follow from what dte posted, but it sure seems hard to run them against four target decks that all use storage lands.

  5. #465

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Question: At the end of R5 (see post #403 on p. 21), I had 18.2 and Symbi had 16.8, so I was leading by 1.4. In R6, Symbi and I gained equal points, but the lead has narrowed to 1.0. How can that be?
    There was a round when there were some disqualifications, but the denominators didn't get updated, so all the points were artificially low. I went back and changed them, but that happened after the round report was published. Depending on how long ago you were looking from, maybe it was that.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Wait are the flailers legal again?
    It looks like they are legal. dte was unafraid of flailers with the added requirement of beating 4x Wastes, which was debatable. Now every deck-to-beat has a storage land, so I'm guessing that he's considering them truly unplayable unless someone comes up with brilliant new tech, something which he probably figures should be rewarded anyway. It seems reasonable to me.

    It seems that the banned list in the google sheet hasn't been updated. Can we get a confirmation that the banned list is this list from post 2 on page 1 plus all cards in all target decks?

  6. #466

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Fireball is replacing Fall of the Titans in the target deck deriving from FourDogsí deck?

    Silkster, that list is definitely missing City of Brass and Life of the Party, which were banned after R5.

  7. #467
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
    Me, taking the wrong deck :/ I should have kept the one that was losing to impatience.

    Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodinís Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
    0-6, I designed to beat impatience.
    Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
    0-6, idem
    How do you beat Impatience?
    You can't cast Change of Heart. No legal target.
    Varchild's War-Riders costs 3 life. If you don't pay the upkeep, you lose to Impatience first. If you pay some upkeeps and attack, opponent will get more 1/1s than you can handle with Change of Heart.

  8. #468

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    If Impatience deck plays Impatience, dteís deck waits until the turn when itís at 6 life.
    dte deck [6 life]: Cast War-Riders, drop to 3 life
    Impatience deck [6 life]: Drop to 4 life
    dte deck [3 life]: One token created. Attack. Impatience deck doesnít block because 3 damage equals 2 damage when youíre at 4 life and all damage is in increments of 2 or 3. Impatience at 1 life from combat damage, dte deck at 1 life from Impatience.
    Impatience deck [1 life]: Wants to attack, but dte casts Change of Heart. Pass, die from Impatience.

    If Impatience deck doesnít play Impatience, dte has infinite mana to use.

  9. #469

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    How do you beat Impatience?
    You can't cast Change of Heart. No legal target.
    Varchild's War-Riders costs 3 life. If you don't pay the upkeep, you lose to Impatience first. If you pay some upkeeps and attack, opponent will get more 1/1s than you can handle with Change of Heart.
    When both players are at 4 DTE casts War Riders and goes to 1.
    Impatience untaps and goes to 2.
    DTE attacks for 3, and there is no blocking pattern to survive.

  10. #470
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    I updated the second post with the banned cards, snd corrected the fireball/ fall of the titans thingy - no clue how that one happened!

    And in my calculations, I was saving life by casting change of heart twice on riders after combat. But from the two posts above, it seemed that there were a few lines :)

  11. #471
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    It is GT for "goldfish turn", the turn at which you win vs 4 x wastes.
    It is in the OP, and was here from the beginning, but was not used much when no one was building decks that could actually beat a goldfish :/
    Ah right. I missed that indeed. I'll try to add it to my decks.


    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Thanks! I thought it cool too, and that was the trouble: then I wanted to play it, rather than the better deck :/
    Ah yes, the danger of cool things. It's very real in MtG.
    In chess too, by the way. It's one of the rules I teach.


    I'll check my scores briefly tomorrow. I think they're mostly correct, but perhaps something slipped through.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  12. #472
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    It looks like they are legal. dte was unafraid of flailers with the added requirement of beating 4x Wastes, which was debatable. Now every deck-to-beat has a storage land, so I'm guessing that he's considering them truly unplayable unless someone comes up with brilliant new tech, something which he probably figures should be rewarded anyway. It seems reasonable to me.
    Exactly. Also, I do think they could be a healthy predator of storage land.deck. If they almost automatically lose to any deck that can make only 4 manas or less, I do not see that as overpowered, and we do not want to see only storage land decks.
    My vision of the metagame would then be that there are at least these generic archetypes among a few unclassable:
    Impatience-like (all that deals damage to everyone over the course of 10-30 turns, just 1-2 more damage to opponent)
    slow (storage land + cumulative upkeep or very expensive loop)
    painful big manabase
    flailers.

    Impatience beats (0-6) flailers, drawish vs slow, lose to painful.
    slow beats painful, drawish vs impatience-like, lose to flailers
    painful beats impatience, drawish vs flailers, lose to slow
    flailers beats slow, drawish vs painful manabase, lose to impatience.

    It is very coarse-grained, but seems equilibrated to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    It seems that the banned list in the google sheet hasn't been updated. Can we get a confirmation that the banned list is this list from post 2 on page 1 plus all cards in all target decks?
    Confirmed. And I also added the line in post 2 saying that any card in a target deck is banned for the current round.


    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Ah yes, the danger of cool things. It's very real in MtG.
    In chess too, by the way. It's one of the rules I teach.
    Was also one of my main problems in go for a long time.

  13. #473

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    A meta in a community game where you're trying to breed creativity seems pretty dull, TBH.
    I can play rock paper scissors anywhere.

  14. #474
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    My scores are correct. Deck might be close in terms of deadline though.
    Last edited by Asthereal; 09-26-2022 at 11:01 AM.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  15. #475

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    My scores are corrent. Deck might be close in terms of deadline though.
    Good news!
    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    On the other hand, the deadline is not next Tuesday, but Tuesday October 4th at 19h CEST.

  16. #476
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Good news!
    That is good news indeed. Thanks for pointing it out!
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  17. #477

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    In our week off just before the end of the season, it's probably a good time to vote on next season. Here are the options I have in mind, which are intended to make new cards and new strategies playable. Feel free to vote for one or to rank as many as you like.

    Option 1, WUBRG: Each player starts with in their mana pool that doesn't empty.
    Along with
    a: Ban all cards from all decks scoring more than 3 round points.
    b: Ban all cards from the top 3 decks (including those tied for third).
    c: Selective bans to remove dominant strategies at my discretion to keep the banlist small.

    Option 2, "Frontbuild": Each round has a target deck which you must go LL against. I chose the name to mirror backbuild as it's a similar legality requirement.
    This has slightly more complicated subchoices.
    A: Keep the same target deck for the whole league with ban strategy a, b, or c.
    B: Use the lowest scoring legal deck from the previous round and apply ban strategy a, b, cor d: no bans.
    C: Have a premade list of decks to LL against and no bans. (Possibly just one from each person who would like to submit one; we have about the right number of people.)

    Season Length: You can just suggest a number, but I'm thinking either short≈8 or long≈12.

    For WUBRG, I like 1a the best. For Frontbuild, I like each of 2Aa, 2Bd, and 2C. But of course, I'm okay with any of the things I'm suggesting. And whichever option isn't chosen for season 14 will likely be chosen for season 16.

  18. #478

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    I've played this game before where the ban list is every card used by anyone in any previous round. Best with a short season since the ban list grows really really fast, but it definitely shakes up the meta.

  19. #479

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    My favourite would be 2Bd with the additional rider of banning cards in the current deck to get beaten by. With only 1 target deck copycats would be a large problem.

  20. #480
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    1c, but all are good to me!

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