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Thread: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

  1. #121
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    When the rules say "Random are most benefitial to the opponent" which opponenet? The person I'm playing against, or the player who doesn't control the ability?

    E: and because we're in buildback does it mean the opposite?
    Rules are that you are exchanging decks at the beginning, otherwise "normal" 4cb rules apply. So a mana crypt generally bolts every upkeep.

  2. #122

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Rules are that you are exchanging decks at the beginning, otherwise "normal" 4cb rules apply. So a mana crypt generally bolts every upkeep.
    What if I donate the Crypt? Does it stop bolting?

  3. #123

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Flail"

    15 GoblinSmashmaster Saprazzan Cove, Copy Enchantment, Kiora's Dismissal, Mindslaver GT NA
    That's me, playing illegal deck

    Total: 0 points :(

  4. #124

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster View Post
    GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Flail"
    Total: 0 points :(
    Wow. Second worst.

  5. #125
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    What if I donate the Crypt? Does it stop bolting?
    Nope, crypt/donate was actually a boogeyman of the last season.

  6. #126

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster View Post
    GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Flail"

    15 GoblinSmashmaster Saprazzan Cove, Copy Enchantment, Kiora's Dismissal, Mindslaver GT NA
    That's me, playing illegal deck

    Total: 0 points :(
    Can you explain what is wrong with this deck? It seems very similar to mine. Dismiss the Leyline, use mindslaver to make the goldfish cast the card, then copy it and win since you make mana faster than the goldfish.

  7. #127

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Can you explain what is wrong with this deck? It seems very similar to mine. Dismiss the Leyline, use mindslaver to make the goldfish cast the card, then copy it and win since you make mana faster than the goldfish.
    Veidt enters tapped. Op is under no obligation to play it and you can only slaver once. So the games end in a draw.

  8. #128

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Nope, crypt/donate was actually a boogeyman of the last season.
    So then "the opponent" always refers to the player who does not control the random effect?

  9. #129

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Veidt enters tapped. Op is under no obligation to play it and you can only slaver once. So the games end in a draw.
    It enters untapped, but opponent can play it, keep it up, then tap it in response to mindslaver in order to prevent it from untapping on the controlled turn.

  10. #130
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So then "the opponent" always refers to the player who does not control the random effect?
    Random effects are always detrimental to the controller of the effect.

    Veldt does not enter tapped, but can be tapped in response to a mindslaver activation;)

  11. #131

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster View Post
    GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Flail"

    15 GoblinSmashmaster Saprazzan Cove, Copy Enchantment, Kiora's Dismissal, Mindslaver GT NA
    That's me, playing illegal deck

    Total: 0 points :(
    Too bad Flailing Goblin isn't a card, you would have enjoyed it so much.

  12. #132
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    It seems that it escaped notice: Flailing Manticore is banned.

    There are no longer any legal Flailing creatures.

  13. #133
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Lotus petal is a unique card, and playing it enables particular strategies. Banning timberlands ruins doesn't make sense to me, as there are many different cards that would be indistinguishable from it.



    The round 2 has started and the rules are:
    1) each round, cards would be banned to prevent an identical strategy as any deck that have been scoring over 3 SP. Banning system to be re-discussed after round 3.
    2) if you play a card on the banning list, your deck is illegal.

    The banning list is here:
    Rainbow Vale
    Lotus Petal
    Forbidden Orchard
    Flailing Soldier
    Flailing Ogre
    Heartless Summoning
    Flailing Manticore
    Helix pinnacle
    This makes no sense to me as Noxious Revival Leyline of Sanctity and Veldt are unique cards. You could argue there are other lands like Veldt, but not of that particular color combination (e.g. it is 1 of only 2 that work with Helix Pinnacle). But Leyline of Sanctity is very different than Ivory Mask (turn 0 protection for any deck, vs slow protection needing white mana). Noxious Revival is also unique in being playable for 0 mana in any deck, while the other effects are not instant, need colored mana, or can't target opponent's graveyard.

    Banning all Flailing creatures, on the other hand, makes sense to avoid repetitive rounds.

    Anyway, are the rules and bannings locked in for Round 2?

  14. #134
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Rules and bans are locked in, we are three that have already submitted decks for round 2.

    Leyline and noxious, it is because no one actually played it. Helix is still ban as a particularly slow, efficient one card win.

    The goal of the bans is to avoid strategic repetition and copycats: hence the preventive ban of flayling Manticore, and Blinkmoth Infusion not being banned. I will also try to keep the banlist as small as possible.

  15. #135

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Like most people here, I liked the consistency of previous seasons. Some of these bans seem arbitrary, and even from your description of how you would choose bans, I wouldn't have been able to predict which cards would be banned. A few times in previous seasons I started planning decks before the next round opened by just looking at the results. I guess if you're checking here frequently and making the declaration quickly then it doesn't really matter.

    That said, I do appreciate that Flailing Manticore is banned. I was almost certainly going to play it this round, but I didn't really want to.

  16. #136
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    Like most people here, I liked the consistency of previous seasons. Some of these bans seem arbitrary, and even from your description of how you would choose bans, I wouldn't have been able to predict which cards would be banned. A few times in previous seasons I started planning decks before the next round opened by just looking at the results. I guess if you're checking here frequently and making the declaration quickly then it doesn't really matter.

    That said, I do appreciate that Flailing Manticore is banned. I was almost certainly going to play it this round, but I didn't really want to.
    So, I asked while posting the round if anyone had strong reservations about my proposal (test out 2 rounds of a new banning system, and to argue and vote afterwards), and you were the only one who commented on it, while everyone posted. So I decided to go on with it.

    The other banning system (systematic bans of each cards in deck that post a minimal score) has been tested, so it is hard to compare just by theory crafting.

    I do take note that there are already three people that appreciate not having a R2: the flailing manticore (whether playing it or against it). I also do see that there seem to be a shared dislike of the arbitrary.
    In this case I do value arbitration over systematic, but let's see what is decided by all after R3.
    For next round I will try to explain the reasons behind each ban, maybe that will help?

  17. #137

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    I don't think anyone is going to miss Flailing Manticore. (Really, backbuild win conditions can be far more ridiculous.)

  18. #138
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I also do see that there seem to be a shared dislike of the arbitrary.
    Explanations would help for next round.

    My disagreement is over the relevance of bans to strategic diversity. Because Leyline and Noxious are free turn 0 plays, they're strategically different from the other similar effects. They enable much more than you get with Ivory Mask and Reclaim. Although Leyline and Noxious weren't explicitly used in matches, submissions had to play around that protection in deck construction (Aura Thief, Kiora's Dismissal, Detection Tower, Shivan Gorge instead of targeting), so they were very relevant to the round results. That's different from Blinkmoth Infusion, a filler card.

    For Veldt, there are other lands with that effect, but few. Especially once you consider colored mana requirements. Banning Timberland Ruins doesn't change much, but banning Veldt means there's only 1 green slowland and 1 white slowland. If either of those get banned next, you get shut out of a color, forcing different win conditions and different interaction. That only takes 2 bans for a major strategic effect. Saying there's no point in banning 1 because it would take 2 bans to see format change makes no sense to me. 2 bans happen quickly. Colors matter. If you never ban them, there's even more repetitiveness.

    I think it deserves more discussion after the next 1-2 rounds.

  19. #139
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Explanations would help for next round.

    My disagreement is over the relevance of bans to strategic diversity. Because Leyline and Noxious are free turn 0 plays, they're strategically different from the other similar effects. They enable much more than you get with Ivory Mask and Reclaim. Although Leyline and Noxious weren't explicitly used in matches, submissions had to play around that protection in deck construction (Aura Thief, Kiora's Dismissal, Detection Tower, Shivan Gorge instead of targeting), so they were very relevant to the round results. That's different from Blinkmoth Infusion, a filler card.

    For Veldt, there are other lands with that effect, but few. Especially once you consider colored mana requirements. Banning Timberland Ruins doesn't change much, but banning Veldt means there's only 1 green slowland and 1 white slowland. If either of those get banned next, you get shut out of a color, forcing different win conditions and different interaction. That only takes 2 bans for a major strategic effect. Saying there's no point in banning 1 because it would take 2 bans to see format change makes no sense to me. 2 bans happen quickly. Colors matter. If you never ban them, there's even more repetitiveness.

    I agree for noxious and leyline, I just thought someone may want to play them? No one did, it was the sample deck. They had to be banned on R1, to avoid players mimicking the sample deck too hard, but players can enjoy them now.

    For Veldt or lands in general, it is more that why a whole color could be removed, because one deck happened to play it? Many decks can play veldt and be all different, I doubt that decks playing flailing soldier or helix pinnacle would be extremely different from each others. So it is not that there is no point in banning veldt, it is that I think it is a very counterproductive point.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I think it deserves more discussion after the next 1-2 rounds.
    Fully agree! Even if we revert to the old system afterwards, I think it is worth trying. It does not change completely the game, I do think the only relevant difference for round 2 is the ban of flailing manticore, which seemed to be appreciated. A compact banlist may also be appreciated later, if it continues.

  20. #140

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Nope, crypt/donate was actually a boogeyman of the last season.
    (Note that for those here from the 3CB subreddit, this rule is different from the rule used over there)

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