Dang, that's a lot of low GTs, which probably mean a lot of decks that are fragile to early damage
dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win
GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
LL 6-0 You're faster
Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
WW 6-0 I ping *myself* and you can't win
Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win
Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
LL 6-0 You can handle taking up to 9 damage
RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
WW 0-6 You die to my ping if you play lich, so you can't win and I kill you
Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
LL 6-0 Torpor orb attacks down my scions
BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24
LL 6-0 Nice flame blitz
jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
That's me!
FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win
Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win
Total: 8L = 24
Other ideas I had at various points:
Sand silos, Desecration elemental, Haunting immitation, Brainstorm - BirdsOfParadise has the better version with enter the infinite
Vedlt, Draco, a charge land, and another card; GT98 - There was always a slower clock available
Sulfur vent, Sulfer vent, Jace, the Living Guildpact, Aetherflux Resivior; GT~190 - I liked the idea of having to repeatedly ult a planeswalker to make progress (and tried it out this round); but Jace's -3, as well as the other abilities of other pws I considered, felt too disruptive.
Forbidden Orchard, Icatian Moneychanger, Calciform pools, Myojin of seeing winds; GT152 - I almost submitted this round 1, but I wanted to save the tech until I could go for a longer clock. Draco was better at ~900ish, but my best version was:
Forbidden orchard, Icatian Moneychanger, Mage ring network, Secret Door. An absolute nightmare to calculate the precise GT of; I would have tried to write a program to do so; but I estimate somewhere in the 10,000s (given 37 ventures into Tomb of Annihalation to win (the other dungeons don't seem worthwhile), costing 185 mana; and the amount of life needed grows quadratically. But given that I create my own 4/4 creatures that can block or trade with theirs, it gets extremely messy to determine the overall possible decision space).
But then forbidden orchard got banned round 1.
Jfb1337, how does that deck with Icatian Moneychanger, Myojin of Seeing Winds, Forbidden Orchard, and Calciform Pools... win? OH Wow I figured it out in real time while typing. Geez. You save a billion life with moneychanger while blocking one spirit, and only then do you start storing storage counters while giving the opponent more spirits. A bit like dte’s Change of Heart + Varchild’s War Riders deck. With Draco that’s magnificent.
Doing the same thing with Secret Door into Tomb of Annihilation is utter madness.
When you posted this, I concluded that you must be talking about a deck that didn’t deal any damage, because a deck that did damage would actually win sooner against Rooster’s target deck, removing the need for a perfect assessment of Rooster’s goldfish; therefore, when I saw Darksteel Reactor, I guessed that you had in mind Black Lotus, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor. I expected you to be on a deck very similar to mine this round. In fact, as I was dorking out to my wife about this round, we referred to the deck I ended up using as “FTW’s deck.” I thought I had you figured out, and part of my interest in the Swamp Mosquito deck was that it scores points against “FTW’s deck”!Originally Posted by FTW
1. dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
A draw for reasons I mentioned earlier. DD 2-2, 2 total.
2. GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
If I tap mana vault immediately you cannon me once and I die. If I wait, you build up enough mana and cannon me to death. LL 6-0, 8 total.
3. Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
You cast Sorin's Vengeance, giving me the choice between dying to mana vault or Hidetsugu's second rite. LL 6-0, 14 total.
4. Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
I can't beat Seraph Sanctuary. DD 2-2, 16 total.
5. Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
I'm faster, and your manabase is too painful. WW 0-6, 16 total.
6. RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
I can always deal 2 damage on the turn after you put lich into play. WW 0-6, 16 total.
7. Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
That's me!
8. FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
I get beaten down by Torpor Orb. LL 6-0, 22 total.
9. BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24
If you try to do anything you die to mana vault. WW 0-6, 22 total.
10. jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
You ping me too early, and attacking your planeswalker doesn't help as I will die to mana vault. LL 6-0, 28 total.
11. FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
Same as dte, hypergenesis loses for you if I have my creature in hand but wins if I have already played my creature. DD 2-2, 30 total.
12. Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
Illegal deck. N/A 0-0, 30 total.
RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
Forsaken wasters can't beat lich. WW
GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
You just need 4 mana to kill me when I have Lich in play, since Hypergenesis lets you play Goblin Cannon for free. It takes you four turns to play Treasure Map and tap it 3 times, and each time you do this aside from the first gains you a treasure, and the final time you get all 3 treasures since you don't need to bounce Treasure Map. This means you have more than enough time to kill me. LL
Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
You are much too fast for me. LL
Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
I damage you too quickly. WW
Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
I damage you too quickly. WW
Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
You can attack me with a creature. LL
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
You can attack me with a creature. LL
BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24
If you tap Mana Vault, I win, but if I play Hypergenesis you win. DD
jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
You damage me before I can win. LL
FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
Roiling Vortex beats Lich. LL
Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
Illegal deck
6W 2D 12L = 38
I decided to submit this after spending weeks trying and failing to find a way to make Lich's Mastery plus Time Bomb work, since I wanted to find a way that forced me to kill my opponent in one shot but couldn't find a good way to stop myself from playing Time Bomb and waiting to play Mastery until Time Bomb had enough counters.
One deck I've had for a while is Norin the Wary, Hypergenesis, Quicksilver Dagger, which seems like the best version of the Standstill deck but we unfortunately never had an all land target deck after I thought of it.
I stole this deck because it looks strong, yet it's supposed to be faster (4 turns, according to the sheet) than the Ajani deck and doesn't interact with it at all before the final swing.
But if that score is more than 3 turns off, perhaps that would make my deck illegal.
I'm sure I beat the Wastes, but the other two sample decks should score against me.
EDIT: so let's analyse:
Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent
EDIT2: As dte explains below, I miscalculated because the phyrexian mana makes Ajani enter with just 2 loyalty. Let's redo the analysis.
So this deck makes Woodlot, Lantern, retrieve Woodlot, Ajani, tick up Ajani towards ultimate, retrieve Woodlot again, then start the cycle.
The cycle means: use Woodlot, retrieve Woodlot (or you get stuck), and we have to cast Ajani and then retrieve Ajani.
We have to alternate using Woodlot to cast or retrieve Ajani, and using Woodlot to retrieve itself, or the cycle stops.
So the cycle would theoretically take 4 turns to complete, and it deals 2 poison each round, so 20 turns minus casting Ajani the final time, which is immediately lethal. So 17 turns for the cycle, assuming we can start on blank.
We can't just kill our own Ajani. The -3 only works if we have 3 loyalty on it. So we have to either +1 and then -3, or +1, +1, +1, +1, -6 making an extra emblem. So the cycle could also be three turns slower, but add and extra emblem speeding things up again.
Let's put it all together.
The start is as follows:
1: Play Woodlot (tapped)
2: Cast Lantern (W1), play Coliseum (tapped)
3: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot
4: Cast Ajani, +1 (3)
5: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot, Ajani +1 (4)
6: Ajani +1 (5)
7: Ajani +1 (6)
8: Ajani -6, Ajani dies, make emblem 1, retrieve Ajani (W1)
9: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot. Draw Ajani. End my turn.
10: Draw Woodlot, play Woodlot (tapped).
From here, the cycle starts, and I get to either go for the shorter cycle:
11: Play Ajani, make 2 poison, +1 Ajani (3)
12: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot, -3 Ajani, killing it.
13: Upkeep: retrieve Ajani, draw Ajani.
14: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw Woodlot, play Woodlot.
Repeating:
15: make 2 poison
19: make 2 poison
23: make 2 poison
27: kill the opponent - hence the original idea of GT27.
Or we can go:
11: Play Ajani, make 2 poison, +1 Ajani (3)
12: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot, Ajani +1 (4)
13: Ajani +1 (5)
14: Ajani +1 (6)
15: Ajani -6, create second emblem, retrieve Ajani
16: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw Ajani
17: Draw Woodlot, play it (tapped)
18: Play Ajani, make 4 poison, +1 Ajani (3)
19: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot, Ajani -3, killing Ajani
20: Upkeep: retrieve Ajani, draw Ajani
21: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot (tapped)
22: Play Ajani, make 4 poison, killing the opponent.
New analysis confirms why the original idea was GT27, but shows the Ajani deck is actually GT22, unless I missed something again.
That still invalidates my deck though.
Last edited by Asthereal; 10-19-2022 at 08:54 AM.
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Big congrats on BirdsOfParadise for the season victory!
Consistency and inventiveness deservedly rewarded :)
I do no think so. You do not play anything. If I play S&T, you do not reveal anything. Then you time your Isle well to be able to time your hypergenesis well, for me to start losing life by 2, and win at 1 life. So I cannot play S&T and we stare.
Sustained!
Those two are very clever. Had I thought about it, I would have play The green urbog rather than a pact, or better still, urbog + green urbog + a land that makes D.
I choste wastes because I like (and know) mirage cards much better than modern ones. Also a little bit because I tried to play so much with grove of the burnwillows. In insight, as a lich-style was in the target decks, we could have thought of lich.
But Roostercocoa did, I didn't.
Sorry to read that, it always feels terrible :/
Very nice, and looking forward to this new season :)
And also kind of relieved mine is finished, even if it was running much smoother at the end.
Dreams of the Dead I thought would be an all star this season! I had it with mercenaries before I added the 4*wastes rule. But mostly I played it a lot in one of my first (terrible) decks, where I was playing it alongside the legends elder dragon legend (all of theme for the theme) and concordant crossroads. After I had quite a few variants, but I never dared to play them.
And this mystic might deck is truly sick!
The Forbidden Orchard/Icatian Moneychanger interaction is a great find. I am kin of sad you could not play it.
You have to use the phyrexian mana, So Ajani enters with only 2 loyalty counters. That explains the difference in turns.
The cards / concepts I missed the most playing were Dreams of the Dead, Tombstone stairwell (did I mention I like mirage?), 2x doomsday with touch of death or rhystic syphon (before the quadwastes rule), immortal coil / broodstar.
That would actually have changed your match against me from DD to WW. Edit: Wait nevermind
Missed that. Redid my analysis and edited the post again. I now come up at GT22, which is still faster than the deck I posted, so my deck is still illegal.
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FTW came up with 21, and I never got why on the difference between 21 and 22.
I am truly sorry if both yours and Reep's decks would turn out to be illegal, while you both submitted your decks early and we started the whole discussion about the GT of the Ajani/poison deck last week because of a marit lage deck with GT23 :/
I specifically ran Kher Keep to beat thehypergenesisbiorhythm deck and not have to think about this
Last edited by Reeplcheep; 10-19-2022 at 02:18 PM.
You can skip 21 and go to 22. Woodlot will die forever, but you don't need it after winning the game.
GT21.
That still makes your deck illegal and my other Depths idea illegal. It is a shame. I brought up the topic to avoid this exact scenario happening in the last round. I guess the spreadsheet was never corrected? Or perhaps players did not agree on my GT21?
I was so focused on playing bad cards that I did not realize you can just do this to speed up the clock 2 turns
Teferi's Isle, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dark Depths, Lotus Bloom GT20 at 2 life
I was stuck on the 4th card being Mana Vault (GT22 at 1 life), Simian Spirit Guide (GT22 at 2 life), Grim Monolith (GT22 at 2 life), or some other single-use +1 accelerant instead of a Lotus.
Another variation I had was Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sorrow's Path, Dark Depths, Mana Vault (GT13 at 1 life), but that seemed too fast.
Great to read that!
I agreed on 21 or 22 and the spreadsheet was updated. But somehow I didn't realise when Asthereal posted his deck :/
Why would you lose life with this one?
Sorrow's Path has 2 separate abilities. It has a triggered ability that damages you any time it is tapped, like City of Brass. Combining it with Urborg is sneaky tech to make a pseudo-City that gets 2 mana for 2 damage.
Sorrow's Path has a city of brass clause
There we go. That's the final turn I missed. We indeed don't need to preserve the Woodlot anymore. GT21 it is.
Makes no real difference though, as my deck is GT23 and so I lose to Ajani and are therefor illegal.
Oh and don't sweat it, dte. It's my fault for not actually reading all the posts here and choosing something dumb without checking properly.
I'm not good at this backbuild thing anyway. I'll stick to the bottom spot then. Someone needs to hold the red lantern.
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To win a 4CB season while swimming with you savvy sharks is something I can be very proud of! I enjoyed discovering Backbuild with all of you. Thank you, dte, for organizing.
See you in the Silkster thread *cough*cough*and in my 4CB Mafia game*cough*cough*.
Edit: I was trying to make Sorrow’s Path + Urborg work! There were a lot of fun things we never got around to.
Path, donate, sands of time, storage land.
I almost submit the deck a whole bunch but the sands of time had a weird interaction with the first gen storage lands I missed and thought they wouldn't function
I wanted to submit a sands of time deck when one of the target decks used tefeiri's isle. Never thought of using it to kill though.
That’s awesome, FourDogs.
Speaking of forcing painlands to tap, when we were pre-Wastes and a target deck had Lava Tubes and City of Brass for mana, I almost submitted a deck with Branded Brawlers and Power Surge as the win condition. It wins against the target but loses to, say, 4x Wastes, Masques storage lands, or regular land + Time Spiral storage lands. It draws against old storage lands (Sand Silos etc.), but it wins against things like City of Brass. That was the round where I (and a couple others) ended up just doing Hint of Insanity instead, but I was more excited about Power Surge, which I’d been reminded of after searching online for “worst Magic cards of all time” or something similar.
Congrats on the winning deck! Darksteel Reactor was an even better idea. I saw that card many times, but never put together how to make it suicidal enough (Mana Vault).
My Dreams of the Dead deck shell was
Saprazzan Cove, Dreams of the Dead, Flash, white or black 1/1 (usually with an ETB ability that let it beat a target deck)
I never ended up submitting it because it can still deal 1 damage quickly. Swamp Mosquito is brilliant.
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