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Thread: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

  1. #481

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    I like 2Ba, 2Bd (with temp bans on target decks; and possibly more than one target deck), and 1a

  2. #482

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Is the WUBRG idea still Backbuild?

  3. #483

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Is the WUBRG idea still Backbuild?
    No, it's regular. We've played one round of it once before in a deviant legacy season. Here's the link: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1091654

    I also didn't say it explicitly, but these are with the largest card pool possible, so vintage.

    I once played a season of vintage banathon where every single card that got played was banned, except for Black Lotus for some reason. It quickly turned into Lotus+Lotus+threat. I'd also be happy to ban every card that gets played for about 8 rounds.

    I didn't originally mention banning the target deck because I imagined most of them having cards with functional reprints, like Grizzly Bears or Wind Drake. It's also really hard to copy one of these decks while also going LL to it, though maybe that's just my limited experience of it. I'm on board to temp ban the target deck though.

    I also thought about having multiple target decks, though I like this idea less. It feels it makes guessing which deck others are targeting into an important part of the brewing process, and that feels like added randomness that's unnecessary.
    Last edited by silkster; 09-28-2022 at 05:44 PM.

  4. #484

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    I also didn't say it explicitly, but these are with the largest card pool possible, so vintage.

    I didn't originally mention banning the target deck because I imagined most of them having cards with functional reprints, like Grizzly Bears or Wind Drake. It's also really hard to copy one of these decks while also going LL to it, though maybe that's just my limited experience of it. I'm on board to temp ban the target deck though.

    I also thought about having multiple target decks, though I like this idea less. It feels it makes guessing which deck others are targeting into an important part of the brewing process, and that feels like added randomness that's unnecessary.
    Is the new unfinity shit banned? Stickers cards will be a pain to work out and several of the attractions include dexterity elements.

    I was thinking after round 1, in the 2B option you are likely to have decks with unique cards (since they were player submitted)

    I agree with the last point

  5. #485

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Are the new unfinity shit banned? Stickers cards will be a pain to work out and several of the attractions include dexterity elements.

    I was thinking after round 1, in the 2B option you are likely to have decks with unique cards (since they were player submitted)

    I agree with the last point
    All the manual dexterity unfinity cards are not vintage legal. If attractions are cards like venture into the dungeon was I assume an attraction deck will behave like venture did.

  6. #486

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    All the manual dexterity unfinity cards are not vintage legal. If attractions are cards like venture into the dungeon was I assume an attraction deck will behave like venture did.
    The problem is the dexterity shit is on the “dungeon rooms” not the actual cards.

  7. #487

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The problem is the dexterity shit is on the “dungeon rooms” not the actual cards.
    Those attractions though aren't legal either?
    But also, randomness always backfires so you'd never visit an attraction anyways.

  8. #488

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Stickers and attractions are both "extra decks" that would go beyond 4 cards, making them not legal (in contrast to dungeons, which always access the same "cards" every time, these mechanics require deckbuilding decisions).

    All cards with an acorn stamp (including all the dexterity ones) aren't vintage legal so wouldn't be legal.
    The other cards should be fine.

  9. #489

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Is the new unfinity shit banned?
    I thought that if want vintage legal. Seeing that it is, me instinct is that it probably makes the most sense to ban it. In theory, it could be gone through card by card, but I don't think that's worth the effort and the confusion it would produce. So "vintage minus Unfinity" will most likely be the format.

    Oh, I now see jfb1337's post about Acorn stamp versus not Acorn stamp. That would work too.

    Scryfall tells me that Unfinity has 344 of which 139 are vintage legal. (It also says that 126 are not vintage legal, but I haven't figured out what the rest are). Oh, and these legal ones seem to include stickers. So maybe best not to include Unfinity at all. Or maybe you just don't get stickers. After looking through the list of vintage-legal Unfinity cards, they almost all mention stickers, attractions, or dice. It doesn't seem useful to include any of them, so I'm again leaning towards simply banning Unfinity outright.
    Last edited by silkster; 09-28-2022 at 05:45 PM.

  10. #490
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    Option 1, WUBRG: Each player starts with in their mana pool that doesn't empty.
    Along with
    a: Ban all cards from all decks scoring more than 3 round points.
    b: Ban all cards from the top 3 decks (including those tied for third).
    c: Selective bans to remove dominant strategies at my discretion to keep the banlist small.
    I like this. We could indeed do a full season of this. With proper bannathon mechanics, it should stay interesting for quite a while.
    Banning every deck that scores more than 3 points might be a lot though, so perhaps 3.5?


    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    Option 2, "Frontbuild": Each round has a target deck which you must go LL against. I chose the name to mirror backbuild as it's a similar legality requirement.
    This has slightly more complicated subchoices.
    A: Keep the same target deck for the whole league with ban strategy a, b, or c.
    B: Use the lowest scoring legal deck from the previous round and apply ban strategy a, b, cor d: no bans.
    C: Have a premade list of decks to LL against and no bans. (Possibly just one from each person who would like to submit one; we have about the right number of people.)
    Also sounds like fun. We could perhaps use a randomizer to determine which legal deck we'll use as next round's deck to lose to. Using the worst deck might get weird.
    But option C seems fun too. I have no clear preference. Perhaps we could do both ideas in succession.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  11. #491
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    Option 1, WUBRG: Each player starts with in their mana pool that doesn't empty.
    Along with
    a: Ban all cards from all decks scoring more than 3 round points.
    b: Ban all cards from the top 3 decks (including those tied for third).
    c: Selective bans to remove dominant strategies at my discretion to keep the banlist small.
    I like 1a or 1b. There are a lot of broken strategies. We'll see more variety if we ban the dominant ones quickly.

    I understand people don't like long banlists, but I have doubts about the ability for "discretion" to be applied fairly and consistently in a way that isn't biased towards the type of decks the TO prefers.

    Edit: Asthereal used to maintain the list in alphabetical order. That made it easy to check legality no matter how long the list. You just scroll down and check your 4 cards in alphabetical order, rather than having to read through every card name. It took me under 30 seconds, even when we have very long banlists from bannathons. If it's taking a long time to check if cards are legal, or you are not sure even after checking the list, perhaps that could be solved by sharing strategies for checking the list or by adding functionality to the spreadsheet.

  12. #492

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    Option 1, WUBRG: Each player starts with in their mana pool that doesn't empty.
    Along with
    a: Ban all cards from all decks scoring more than 3 round points.
    b: Ban all cards from the top 3 decks (including those tied for third).
    c: ​ [not relevant to my reply]


    Does that mana just not empty normally, or
    is it also immune to things like Mana Short?
    What about Kruphix, God of Horizons?


    For ban-option a, note that

    even with no draws, it's still possible for there to
    be no decks scoring more than 3 round points
    and
    due to draws, it's possible for there to be
    no decks scoring more than 2 round points

    , ​ ​ ​ so there should be a fallback in case ​ a ​ would ban nothing,
    or maybe even if it would just ban too little.

  13. #493

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    It should be like a Refellos, or Omnath.

  14. #494

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    I like 2 A the best with ban strategy a, since as long as the chosen deck to beat doesn't have too easy of a way to lose to it (it doesn't include something like null rod) I feel it would involve a lot of creativity.

  15. #495

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I understand people don't like long banlists, but I have doubts about the ability for "discretion" to be applied fairly and consistently in a way that isn't biased towards the type of decks the TO prefers.

    Edit: Asthereal used to maintain the list in alphabetical order. That made it easy to check legality no matter how long the list. You just scroll down and check your 4 cards in alphabetical order, rather than having to read through every card name. It took me under 30 seconds, even when we have very long banlists from bannathons. If it's taking a long time to check if cards are legal, or you are not sure even after checking the list, perhaps that could be solved by sharing strategies for checking the list or by adding functionality to the spreadsheet.
    I agree with everything here. I don't mind long banlists that are alphabetically organized (which is really easy on the google tab because you can right click -> sort alphabetically). And I also don't necessarily think that my discretion would be the best, though I think it would be okay. I definitely lean toward 1a myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phasmoid View Post
    Does that mana just not empty normally, or
    is it also immune to things like Mana Short?
    What about Kruphix, God of Horizons?
    I was trying to save on words, but I shouldn't have. It should say "this mana does not empty from your mana pool as steps and phases end".
    My ruling on Kruphix is that the "become colorless" clause is a replacement effect, but since the game rule says that mana doesn't empty, the replacement does not happen. However, if you have a Kruphix in play and your opponent plays Mana Short, then it would become colorless. Also, I don't think anyone will play Kruphix except possibly to spite this very sentence. Mana Short, on the other hand, is definitely a valid strategy and I expect it to be played.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phasmoid View Post
    even with no draws, it's still possible for there to
    be no decks scoring more than 3 round points
    and
    due to draws, it's possible for there to be
    no decks scoring more than 2 round points

    , ​ ​ ​ so there should be a fallback in case ​ a ​ would ban nothing,
    or maybe even if it would just ban too little.
    Funny enough, if you check back to our banathons from a few seasons ago, I was the one clamouring about this! And yes, I think option a should really read "all decks that are top three, tied for top three, or scoring more than 3.0 round points".

  16. #496
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    24h to the deadline, and plenty of (legal) submissions missing.

  17. #497

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    24h to the deadline, and plenty of (legal) submissions missing.
    FINE!
    I'll submit a legal list...

  18. #498
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    3h to the deadline, and still missing quite a few submissions!

  19. #499

  20. #500
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    The excel sheet is updated (finally, on the penultimate round of the season, I found a way not too painful to do it)

    dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy, Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
    me, playing painful manabase and gy-based as 2 target decks were using gy strategies.

    Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
    0-6. you play a more painful manabase, and a later arriving threat.

    jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
    0-6. A work of beauty!
    This will definitely sign the final ban of the flailers, but I am very happy they were legal this round to lead to this! (well, also because only you thought of it, if it was half the field I would have considered a mistake).

    Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
    6-0. You can eat the broodstar.
    6

    RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27
    6-0. Lantern beats me.
    12

    Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
    0-6. Nice deck. Having to survive a full turn at 1 life.
    12

    FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
    6-0. You are too fast for me.
    18

    BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
    2-2. I do have a non C-producing land.
    20

    FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
    2-2. I do have a non C-producing land.
    22

    GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
    6-0. Lantern beats me.
    28

    Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
    0-6. painful manabase lose to tablet, but you remove the pain from my manabase.
    28

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