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Thread: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

  1. #521

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    > is losing life unfavorable if it wins you the game?
    Itís Mana Vault, not Mana Crypt, so losing life is inevitable if Symbi wants to cast NDE.

  2. #522

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    > is losing life unfavorable if it wins you the game?
    Itís Mana Vault, not Mana Crypt, so losing life is inevitable if Symbi wants to cast NDE.
    Yes thatís my mistake.

  3. #523
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    I believe RoosterCocoa does as follows:
    T1: Play Woodlot.
    T2: Play Coliseum. Cast Reito Lantern
    T3: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck, draw and play it again.
    T4: Cast Ajani, +1 Ajani (now 3).
    T5: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck, draw and play it. +1 Ajani (now 4)
    T8: -6 Ajani. One emblem, Put Ajani back in deck.
    T9: Sac Woodlot. Put Woodlot back in deck. Play Woodlot.
    T10: Cast Ajani. Two poison counters. +1 Ajani (now 3). --> it takes 6 turns.
    T14: -6 Ajani. Two emblems, Put Ajani back in deck.
    T16: Cast Ajani. 6 poison counters. +1 Ajani (now 3).
    T17: sac woodlot and play it, -3 ajani.
    T18: draw ajani.
    T19: win.

    If I am correct, that changes MUs vs Reeplcheep and symbi.

  4. #524

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Looks like dte is shaving time off of my version of RoosterCocoaís clock by sacrificing Woodlot during the upkeep and drawing it in the draw step of the same turn. I was taking a whole turn to sac Woodlot and then another whole turn to replay it. I donít see a problem with using the upkeep step. Will be interesting to see what RoosterCocoa and Symbi say when they get a chance to consider it.

  5. #525
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooey View Post
    Goblin Assassin

    May be a bit late given that we are basically at the end, but I never did understand the rule on random effects... what actually happens when goblin assassin ETBs? I had been working under an assumption somewhat along the lines of: opponent of the submitter of the deck with random effects chooses the outcome of the random effect, and is assumed to choose the the one that results in the submitter of the deck with random effects getting the fewest points. But if this card works the way goblin smashmaster wants it to, I must not be understanding.
    The controller of the random effect gets the worst outcome for optimal play trying to win the game (round points are separate). At least that's how we've played it here. However in Backbuild a bad outcome can give points.

    Goblin Assassin has 2 options:
    a) survive as a 2/2
    b) die and ping for 1 damage

    In most cases the 2/2 wins faster, so it will die and ping for 1 damage.

    In some board states a summoning sick 2/2 deals less damage than pinging (opponent has a blocker or NDE at 1 life). In those cases it survives as a 2/2 instead of dying.

    Mountain + Mana Clash would always lose the flip and kill you. However you cannot use it to 6-0 every Backbuild game because controllers must use optimal play trying to win the game. In most cases optimal play means you never cast Mana Clash. It is like Summoner's Pact in hand. Optimal play means you don't cast it unless forced to (Word of Command). However it is optimal to cast Goblin Assassin because both outcomes advance GoblinSmashmaster's game plan. It will just be the slower outcome each time.

    Goblin Game is different because the choices are not random. I cannot think of an easy way to resolve it. More math to come.
    Last edited by FTW; Yesterday at 03:29 PM.

  6. #526
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I believe RoosterCocoa does as follows:
    T1: Play Woodlot.
    T2: Play Coliseum. Cast Reito Lantern
    T3: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck, draw and play it again.
    T4: Cast Ajani, +1 Ajani (now 3).
    T5: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck, draw and play it. +1 Ajani (now 4)
    T8: -6 Ajani. One emblem, Put Ajani back in deck.
    T9: Sac Woodlot. Put Woodlot back in deck. Play Woodlot.
    T10: Cast Ajani. Two poison counters. +1 Ajani (now 3). --> it takes 6 turns.
    T14: -6 Ajani. Two emblems, Put Ajani back in deck.
    T16: Cast Ajani. 6 poison counters. +1 Ajani (now 3).
    T17: sac woodlot and play it, -3 ajani.
    T18: draw ajani.
    T19: win.

    If I am correct, that changes MUs vs Reeplcheep and symbi.
    I believe dte is correct.

    The trick to redraw Woodlot the same turn should be used to save time.

    Ajani starts at only 2 loyalty, but that also means you can go +1 -3 to get it in the graveyard faster.

    After the 2nd emblem, you don't need more emblems. 2+4+4=10 poison. 4th Ajani cast is lethal either way. So you could -3 from 3 loyalty instead of making a 3rd emblem. Each Ajani cast loses 3 life (2 for Compleat + 1 for Coliseum), so Rooster loses 12 total and wins at 8 life. Rooster races any deck that can't deal 8 damage by T19.
    Last edited by FTW; Yesterday at 03:26 PM.

  7. #527
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Goblin Game math and logic attempted.

    Player A at 21 vs Player B at 20
    Neither can choose 0.
    A chooses X > 0
    B chooses Y after, with perfect information.

    Resolving Goblin Game...
    If Y < X then B -> FLOOR[(20-Y)/2] life // A -> 21-X life
    If Y=X then B -> FLOOR[(20-X)/2] life // A -> FLOOR[(21-X)/2] life
    If Y > X then B -> 20 - Y life // A -> FLOOR[(21-X)/2] life

    Player B's only reasonable choices for Y are 1, X, or X+1. Otherwise B loses extra life for no reason.

    A wants B to choose the same number so they lose about the same life. But B doesn't have to.
    If X > 12, player B can choose Y=1, get life halved, and ends up ahead: B -> 9 life // A -> 21 - X life
    If X < 17, player B can choose Y=X+1, force player A to get life halved, and ends up ahead: B -> 19 - X life // A -> FLOOR[(21-X)/2] life

    Player B can always end up ahead after 1 Goblin Game. It only gets worse after more Goblin Games. Player A cannot win.

    Generalizing this. If player A starts with an extra L life buffer...
    If X > 11+L, player B can choose Y=1 and end up ahead: B -> 9 life // A -> 20+L-X life
    If X < 18-L, player B can choose Y=X+1 and end up ahead: B -> 19-X life // A -> FLOOR[(20+L-X)/2] life

    If 18-L < X < 11+L then player B does not have that opening to get ahead. In other words, player A needs a life buffer of L > 4.

    Starting at 25 life, Player A can choose X=15:
    If player B chooses Y=1, B goes to 9 life and A goes to 10.
    If player B chooses 2-14, B goes below 9 and A still goes to 10 (worse than choose Y=1)
    If player B chooses Y=15, B goes to 2 life and A goes to 5 (worse than choosing Y=16)
    If player B chooses Y=16, B goes to 4 life and A goes to 5.
    If player B chooses higher, B goes below 4 and A still goes to 5 (worse than choosing Y=16)
    FINALLY Player A can resolve Goblin Game and guarantee being ahead in life no matter what Player B chooses. But A is just ahead by 1 life, not enough to win a 2nd Goblin Game.

    To win the 2nd and 3rd Goblin Game to kill, Player A needs a bigger life advantage. 25 life is not enough.

    Edit: To guarantee winning consecutive Goblin Games, Player A needs to maintain a life advantage bigger than 1 after resolving Goblin Game.
    Player A could choose X so that Player B cannot choose X or higher, guaranteeing player B will get their life halved.
    If Player A starts with at least 33 life this is possible.
    1st Goblin Game -> Choose X=19 -> B must choose lower Y=1 -> A @ 14 life, B @ 9 life
    2nd Goblin Game -> Choose X=8 -> B must choose lower Y=1 -> A @ 6 life, B @ 4 life
    3rd Goblin Game -> Choose X=3 -> B must choose lower Y=1 -> A @ 3 life, B @ 1 life
    4th Goblin Game -> Choose X=1 -> B can match or choose higher -> either way B loses and A survives at 1 life

    With +13 life you can guarantee a win with 4 Goblin Games.

    If Player A starts with 30 life, you can't constrain B's decisions as much but can still win
    1st Goblin Game -> Choose X=15 -> B has more choices
    If B chooses Y=1: A @ 15 life, B @ 9 life (we know this wins because 14 vs 9 wins above)
    If B chooses Y=16: A @ 7 life, B @ 4 life (we know this wins because 6 vs 4 wins above)

    If Player A starts with 28 life, you can still win
    1st Goblin Game -> Choose X=14
    If B chooses Y=1: A @ 14 life, B @ 9 life (we know this wins from above)
    If B chooses Y=15: A @ 7 life, B @ 5 life -> For 2nd Goblin Game choose X=4 -> B must choose lower Y=1 -> A @ 3 life, B @ 1 life (we know this wins from above)

    Starting at 28 life, Player A can kill with 4 Goblin Games no matter what opponent chooses.
    25 life is not enough. I haven't checked 26 or 27.

    tl;dr- We could ban Goblin Game, but I do not see the point. You have to gain 8 life just to beat a goldfish. Gaining that much life does not seem competitive in Backbuild.
    Last edited by FTW; Yesterday at 09:28 PM.

  8. #528

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    I don't think "having a lot of decision points" is really a good reason to ban a card

  9. #529

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    If there is a reason to ban goblin game, it is not because there are too many decision points, but rather because the cardís Oracle text explicitly says that decisions need to be made simultaneously by both players. This is distinct from APNAP order and could in principle be impossible to resolve!
    Last edited by BirdsOfParadise; Today at 12:22 AM.

  10. #530

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27 23
    I didn't notice that I could -3 Ajani to kill him the last time, or that I could use Lantern on upkeep for Woodlot. Luckily for me, whenever I use Lantern on Woodlot after I use it on Ajani, doing it on upkeep doesn't matter because Ajani is already in my library, so if I use Lantern on Woodlot it just goes below Ajani and doesn't get drawn until the next turn.

    dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy, Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
    Lantern beats you. WW

    Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
    Whoever is on the play wins. WL

    jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
    You can't ever beat me. WW

    Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
    Lich's Mastery means I can't win. LL

    Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
    Unfortunately for me, with my new goldfish you lose by one turn. WW

    FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
    You are too fast for me. LL

    BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
    If I play Woodlot, you can't do anything but I can't win. DD

    FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
    If I play Woodlot, you can't do anything but I can't win. DD

    GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
    I am too fast, even with the self damage. WW

    Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
    You have to play Vineyard on your first turn, so I can choose between not paying life for Ajani or not recycling Woodlot. If I don't pay life for Ajani, I lose if you deal 16 damage before I can win, which is my upkeep after your turn 17. You can also delay me by 3 turns with Shriekhorn, using it to mill the card I place on top of my library (I think you can only get one turn per use, but I might be wrong since you can make me use depletion counters from Woodlot). I play Ajani on my turn 3, so I can ult him on turn 5, which gives me enough time to use Lantern to get Woodlot back and play it on turn 4. This means on turn 5 I place Ajani in my library, and I replay him on turn 6. This cycle takes 3 turns, so after turn 12 I have ulted Ajani 3 times and just replayed him. Since you can delay me 3 times with Shriekhorn, this makes it actually turn 15, which means I win. WW

    11W 4D 5L = 19

    It turns out I'm too used to backbuild lists that only do what I built them to do, I didn't even bother looking to see if the deck could win faster than I designed it to. I did come up with a great list, but it was way too bad to win vs one of the target decks.

  11. #531
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Quote Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa View Post
    RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27 23
    I didn't notice that I could -3 Ajani to kill him the last time, or that I could use Lantern on upkeep for Woodlot. Luckily for me, whenever I use Lantern on Woodlot after I use it on Ajani, doing it on upkeep doesn't matter because Ajani is already in my library, so if I use Lantern on Woodlot it just goes below Ajani and doesn't get drawn until the next turn.
    True for the library order, but shouldn't that make it GT22 then?

  12. #532
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    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Provisional scores for round 7:
    3,8 Symbi
    3,6 Reeplcheep
    3,6 Silkster
    3,4 jfb1337
    3,4 BirdsOfParadise
    3,4 FTW
    2,8 dte(TO)
    2,4 GoblinSmashmaster
    1,6 RoosterCocoa
    1,4 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
    1,2 Dooey

    Which leads to the following standings for S13:
    1 26,5 BirdsOfParadise
    2 25,9 Symbi
    3 23,7 Silkster
    4 20,3 RoosterCocoa
    5 19,5 Wrath of Pie
    6 18,2 FTW
    7 16,8 Reeplcheep
    8 16,5 jfb1337
    9 15,6 dte (TO)
    10 15 GoblinSmashmaster
    11 12 Dooey
    12 10,7 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
    13 8,6 alphastryk
    14 6,6 Asthereal
    15 2,9 Raketenudo

    So a very tight race for the top spot, to be decided on the last round between BirdsOfParadise and Symbi, with Silkster maybe able to do something!
    Positions 4, 7 and 9 are also in play.

    There will be the following additional bannings:
    Flailing Soldier
    Chancellor of the Tangle
    Near-Death Experience
    Wolfcaller's Howl
    Flailing Ogre
    Obsidian Charmaw
    Impatience

    As well as all cards in the target decks, which are:
    Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash
    Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent
    Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm

    I will brew something, last round to be opened soon!
    Last edited by dte; Today at 09:57 AM.

  13. #533

    Re: 4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

    Iím seeing 22, 23 and 19 for roosterís GT. Iím fine to go down to WL if someone can lay it out again. Just to confirm, this is why Iím 23:

    I beat 4x wastes by making marit lage on t22 at 1 life (3 turns to play my mana producing lands, 19 to remove counters) and then attacking on t23.

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