Really, no matter what you do you won't be able to escape the draw-fest. Losing to highly specific conditions encourages that as a natural result, so you would have to reduce the specific condition options massively to make that work.Originally Posted by dte
Honestly, the best option is probably option D: having to beat the lowest-scoring hand each round rather than one of the three highest, and requiring a finite goldfish against four blank cards. Probably still a draw-fest, but it's the best you're going to accomplish.
jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
Going for the obvious 'force the forbidden orchard deck to give me the win' strat; while teching against the mirror.
dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
I make you play your pact. WW 0-6.
Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
If you play your living plane, I win with my lands. If you never tick up your land to the mana to cast it, I can't do anything. DD 2-2.
Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
I make you play your crypt. WW 0-6.
GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
You discard my worst fears to prevent me from playing your crypt. DD 1-1
FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
You make me play my pact. LL 6-0.
FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
Neither of us can win. DD 2-2.
Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
Neither of us can win. DD 2-2.
Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
You make my play my pact. LL 6-0.
Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
Neither of us can win. DD 2-2.
RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
Neither of us can win. DD 2-2.
BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
You make 1 1/1, I make 2 and win. If you don't play the cluster then I make you do so. WW 0-6.
silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
You win with barbed wire. LL 6-0.
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45[/QUOTE]
You win with imp. LL 6-0.
Total: 8L 12D 6W = 36
As for draws, I'll say A>C>B.
Last edited by jfb1337; 08-23-2022 at 07:37 PM.
How about if your deck has a goldfish of N/A you automatically lose a draw. So that two self-losing decks each get zero points instead of 2.
Why is losing to a goldfish a problem but a goldfish turn of 345 is not? The scoring already punishes a bunch of draws, and there are plenty of ways to punish steal decks (there is still 4 pacts and mana vault left). Self-kill vs slow vs no wincon makes an interesting RPS.
The rules do not punish you for drawing the game, in fact they reward you for doing so since 1 point is more than 0.
I find it time consuming to validate whether any given deck is legal when there are three different target decks. Therefore I vote D.
D (The one target deck is chosen at random by organizer from previous round’s submissions. I am agnostic as to whether 4x Wastes should be included as a secondary target — as an *and*, not *or*.)
4x Wastes changes a lot, and probably shifts the focus toward losing to any damage because all the other strategies can't beat Wastes.
I think the real issue was starting with Veldt, which made Forbidden Orchard actually playable against it (so blame dte and me, basically). Honestly could have probably banned Forbidden Orchard/Rainbow Vale/Rhystic Cave to start with (there's a reason they are Backbuild staples), but it's a bit late for that.
Playing Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith.
dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact
If I make a token, my mana is locked down and you can make a token, so I don’t win. You can’t win either.
DD (2 pt)
Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
You play Hollow Trees and save mana. If I ever make a token, you make tokens to outnumber me. If I do not make a token, you use your win condition.
LL (8 pt)
Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
DD (10 pt)
Same as dte.
GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
If I make token, you go Lotus into 3 tokens. If I don’t, you can’t hurt me.
DD (12 pt)
FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
As you said, neither of us optimally plays anything.
DD (14 pt)
jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
If I play Cluster, you win. You can force me to play Cluster and cycle Street Wraith, then discard Pact to make a 1/1 and kill me.
LL (20 pt)
FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
You discard my Street Wraith and win with Mortivore.
LL (26 pt)
Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
DD (28 pt)
Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
DD (30 pt)
Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
Too bad for me that your deck can’t make me discard Street Wraith. I was specifically hoping to counter Reanimator.
DD (32 pt)
RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A
DD, right? (34 pt)
silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
Arg. Nice job not making mana.
WW (34 pt)
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
LL (40 pt)
Total: 40 pt
We're not exchanging hands anymore?
Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11 - DD - Hollow Trees is just slow enough to force draws because you can hit with Drifter il-Dal. Also, now I feel silly for trying to make it work with Chronatog Totem (with Mana Crypt, of course) and giving up on it as too good.
Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11 - DD
GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA - DD - You just exile Living Plane.
FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA - LL
jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA - DD
FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card) - WW
Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A - DD - Same as GoblinSmashmaster.
Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A - DD
Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A - DD
RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy, GT: N/A - DD
BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21 - WW
silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep - WW
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45 - LL
4l16d = 28 points
Well, I couldn't beat two lands, so I guess I set out to do what I wanted. Unfortunately, I couldn't lose to two lands very well. I'm not used to this much not doing anything against blank cards and it cost me badly.
Honestly, I prefer option A, but really if you want to make this interesting it's my option D I proposed earlier.
RoosterCocoa: Skemfar Elderhall, Dreadship Reef, Wolfcaller's Howl, Piracy
dte (TO): rhystic cave,drifter il-dal,final fortune,summoner's pact, GT11
Neither of us can win. DD
Wrath of Pie: Halls of Mist, Hollow Trees, Living Plane, Eternal Dominion GT:26
We draw whether you play Living Plane or not. DD
Symbi: Rhystic Cave, drifter il-dal, Mana Crypt, Arcane Signet GT:11
Neither of us can win. DD
GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Covetous Urge, Mana Crypt GT NA
My nonland cards aren't useful for you, and I can't win. DD
FourDogsinaHorseSuit : Mercadian BazaarWild EvocationExert Influence Pendelhaven GT NA
Neither of us can win. DD
jfb1337: Mage-ring network, River Delta, Worst Fears,Summoner's Pact GT NA
I can't win, and you can't do anything while controlling me. DD
FTW: Subterranean Hangar, Ostracize, Mortivore,Satyr's Cunning GT 27 (only if opponent has creature card)
Neither of us can win. DD
Alphastryk:Svyelunite Temple, Saprazzan Skerry,Dominate, Covetous Urge GT: N/A
My nonland cards aren't useful for you, and I can't win. DD
Reeplcheep: Lava Tubes, Cabal Pit, Word of Command,Word of Command, GT: N/A
I can't win, and you can't make me cast anything that matters. DD
Dooey:Gateway Plaza, Fetid Heath, Dread Fugue,Animate Dead, GT: N/A
I can't win, you have nothing to animate. DD
BirdsOfParadise: Ancient Tomb, Mox Emerald, Saproling Cluster, Street Wraith GT 21
I can't win, you would lose if you played Saproling Cluster so you don't and we draw. DD
silkster: Mishra's Workshop, Barbed Wire, Brainwash, Bandage, GT: 20 + opponent's upkeep
I lose to Barbed Wire. LL
Asthereal: City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Aura Flux, Teferi's Imp GT c. 45
I lose to the Imp. LL
0W 22D 4L = 34
I was too excited at finding Wolfcaller's Howl that I didn't realize it would be better to play a 3cb deck with a Pact. I think C=A>B, but also that most of the problem was likely the lands last round since they made it too easy to win without a wincon so I'd prefer if we waited a round before deciding.
So, the scores are in, and it seems that only three decks pass the 3 threshold.
Also, the decks to beat would be rhystic cave / drifter il-dal, and saproling clusters, all decks that cannot win vs a single land (even veldt or city of brass).
Standings for the round:
3,7 dte (TO)
3,7 Symbi
3,1 BirdsOfParadise
2,8 jfb1337
2,6 FTW
2,6 RoosterCocoa
2,4 Silkster
2,3 Dooey
2,3 GoblinSmashmaster
2,2 alphastryk
2,2 Wrath of Pie
2,0 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
2,0 Reeplcheep
0,8 Asthereal
And for the season:
7,2 Silkster
7,2 RoosterCocoa
7,1 BirdsOfParadise
7 Wrath of Pie
6,6 dte (TO)
5,5 Dooey
5,5 Symbi
5,2 jfb1337
4,8 FTW
4,7 alphastryk
4,2 Reeplcheep
2,9 Raketenudo
2,3 GoblinSmashmaster
2 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
1,3 Asthereal
On the votes:
A got liked 3 times and hated 3 times
B got liked twice and hated 3 times
C got liked 4 times and hated 2 times
C would win this.
Also, two D propositions were to change the target decks, which I think is actually a great idea, taking the last two decks as targets.
Before starting the new round, I would like to ask two questions:
- do you prefer C (has to beat 4 wastes) or D (target decks are the last three of previous round instead of first three)?
- would you be ok that bans affect deck that ranked in the first third of the round, rather than above 3?
What's the number after the comma?
A decimal separator (decimal comma).
The excel sheet is inherited from Asthereal, so I guess Dutch is the default language.
Many languages use a decimal comma rather than a decimal point - here point would be better as in English point is used much more than comma for decimal separators.
Also, please all answer these questions, even to say you do not care:
- do you prefer C (has to beat 4 wastes) or D (target decks are the last three of previous round instead of first three)?
- would you be ok that bans affect deck that ranked in the first third of the round, rather than above 3?
I have no prefrence for C or D, though I am worried if we choose D someone will "shoot the moon" and now we have to beat a very very strong deck.
I also don't care how we do bans.
Silkster, reep, Jfb, WoP, Rooster = 5 votes for A?
I prefer C
No, although if D happens that is effectively the same.
Having mana sources is exploitable (see WoPs deck) and these inherently beat steal decks.
Personally I prefer C. I think the real problem is that people didn't have to run an actual wincon that doesn't fold to the opponent just spending mana or doing other simple game actions that almost any deck can do.
I had WoP as D, and had missed Rooster. It does not change as Rooster was on C=A>B.
Another alternative could be "Must beat a deck of 0 cards", or "Must beat a deck of 4 literally blank cards", in order to require a threat but still allow for strategies that punish having too much mana. (which may allow for more variety, making storage land + the slowest possible threat not automatically the best option)
My vote:
C > D
I prefer the smallest possible number of target decks, so 1 is better than 3 for me.
I’m also happy with the suggestions of “target deck has four blank cards” and “organizer chooses one random target deck from among last round’s submissions.”
I don't like C. 4x Wastes is too strong. I would prefer some D at dte's discretion.
D: The target decks could be some modification of the top 3 decks. That way we could preserve the spirit but avoid scenarios where you can pick on one card to play a deck that cannot win. For example, dte could have modified the winning decks to replace Forbidden Orchard with a basic, so that we had to beat Flailing creatures but couldn't pick on Forbidden Orchard with boring decks like mana + Mindslaver.
With the current top decks, you could beat dte's deck with something dumb like
Mana Crypt, Mana Crypt, Black Mana Battery, Word of Command (forcing dte to play Pact and lose to the trigger just before dying to Mana Crypts)
Even though Pact was a filler card in dte's deck, that would satisfy the requirements of beating one of the top 3. That leads to another boring round of DDs between do-nothing decks, or people playing 3CB + Pact to troll the mirror. But if dte could make a small modification to the target decks (e.g. replacing Pact with another card), then we avoid that scenario. I trust dte's judgment to create balanced target decks.
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