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Thread: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable again?

  1. #1

    [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable again?

    Dominaria United has two cards that I found very interesting and managed to get a few copies of this morning...

    Karn's Sylex 3
    Legendary Artifact
    Karn's Sylex enters the battlefield tapped.
    Players can't pay life to cast spells or to activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.
    {X}, {T}, Exile Karn's Sylex: Destroy each nonland permanent with mana value X or less. Activate only as a sorcery.

    It's a better Ratchet Bomb that also manages to hate on fetchlands, force of will and some combo tools. When played turn one, it can lock your opponent out of the game by shutting off their fetchlands, akin to a turn one Opposition Agent. It does synergize poorly with Blood Moon (lets them tap their fetchlands for mana) and with Chalice to a degree. So perhaps it should be tested alongside 4 Dark Ritual in the Curse Stompy list that Reeplcheep is so fond of.

    Much less exciting is...

    Timeless Lotus 5
    Legendary Artifact
    Timeless Lotus enters the battlefield tapped.
    T: Add WUBRG

    It's a bigger Thran Dynamo that synergizes really well with both Golos (a staple in big mana decks) and with Manifold Key (a staple of MUD/Metalworker decks of years past).

    These are the two lists I arrived at and its been doing very well for me on MTGO all day...

    Metalworker Forgemaster

    3 Wurmcoil Engine
    3 Trinisphere
    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Metalworker
    2 Manifold Key
    4 Ancient Tomb
    1 Platinum Emperion
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Cloudpost
    4 Glimmerpost
    2 Vesuva
    1 Spellskite
    3 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Scavenger Grounds
    1 Blast Zone
    3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4 Lodestone Golem
    1 Inventors' Fair
    2 Lightning Greaves
    2 Expedition Map
    1 Cascading Cataracts
    1 Thespian's Stage
    1 Crystal Vein
    3 Karn's Sylex

    Sideboard:
    1 Defense Grid
    1 Batterskull
    1 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Torpor Orb
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Trinisphere
    1 Ugin, the Ineffable
    2 Thorn of Amethyst


    Metalworker Depths

    4 Wurmcoil Engine
    3 Trinisphere
    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Metalworker
    2 Manifold Key
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Cloudpost
    4 Glimmerpost
    1 Spellskite
    4 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
    1 Scavenger Grounds
    1 Blast Zone
    4 Lodestone Golem
    2 Lightning Greaves
    4 Expedition Map
    1 Cascading Cataracts
    4 Thespian's Stage
    1 Dark Depths
    3 Karn's Sylex
    1 Crystal Vein

    Sideboard:
    1 Defense Grid
    1 Batterskull
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Torpor Orb
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Trinisphere
    2 Thorn of Amethyst



    I don't have Chalice, and I'm not convinced Chalice is that good anymore in the era of Boseji, Meltdown and Prismatic Ending. Plus it synergizes poorly with Karn's Sylex. So above is what I arrived at.

    Any input or suggestions on how to improve the above lists, or bring MUD to 2022?
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 09-03-2022 at 01:23 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    You still need to pay 7 to pop a murktide, and it enters tapped, that makes it worse than Ugin, imo.

  3. #3

    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    It's not competing with Ugin. Its competing with Ratchet Bomb and with Chalice (as an alternative turn 1 disruption piece).

    Ugin is a late game bomb that almost never lands before turn 3-4 (unless you are lucky enough to go turn 1 Lighting Greaves into turn 2 Metalworker)

    Sylex is a turn one disruptor and early midgame sweeper to help you stabilize. Sylex helps you get to turn 3/4 by sweeping up DRCs, Delvers and Shedders.

    Once you get to turn 3/4, Murktide can be raced with Wurmcoil, raced by Forgemaster into Blightsteel, or can be stopped dead in its tracks by either a Bridge or a Platinum Emperion that Forgemaster fetches up. Especially if you have Lightning Greaves on the board to speed up and protect your threats and metalworkers. Murktide is also super soft to Leyline and Relic of Progenitus postboard.

    Edit: Elaborated what I meant in greater detail. As an aside, can you redirect Lore Counters being added to Urza's Saga in order to neutralize Urza's Saga?

  4. #4

    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    It's not competing with Ugin. Its competing with Ratchet Bomb and with Chalice (as an alternative turn one disruption piece).

    Ugin is a late game bomb that almost never lands before turn 4.

    Sylex is a turn one disruptor and early midgame sweeper to help you stabilize.
    If it costs 7 to activate to activate it completes with Ugin

  5. #5
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    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    As removal it's expensive compared to other available options.

    Perhaps the best mode is the passive. It's a 3-mana MUST-FoW (otherwise FoW is stranded dead in hand). Between that and stopping fetches, it could work as a disruptor to let you resolve an important piece (Metalworker, Karn).

    As removal it competes with 1-sided effects like All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. So you would need enough use cases where you crack it for X=1-3, it's faster than Ratchet/Keg, and it doesn't hurt your own board too much.

  6. #6
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    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    Just gonna drop here that it combos with Aether Storm
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

  7. #7

    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    More importantly, by stopping fetches, it makes brainstorm, sylvan library and cantrips in general significantly weaker.

  8. #8

    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    To be fair, so does chalice.
    While also handling ponder.

    It has no interaction with Library, it's a triggered ability and the life payment doesn't activate an additional ability.

  9. #9
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    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    Ponder is dramatically weaker without fetchlands tho

    (Although not as much as Brainstorm)
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

  10. #10

    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Ponder is dramatically weaker without fetchlands tho
    Just about every card is.

  11. #11
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    Re: [Discussion] Is Karn's Sylex good enough to make big mana & MUD decks viable agai

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Dominaria United has two cards that I found very interesting and managed to get a few copies of this morning...

    Karn's Sylex 3
    Legendary Artifact
    Karn's Sylex enters the battlefield tapped.
    Players can't pay life to cast spells or to activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.
    {X}, {T}, Exile Karn's Sylex: Destroy each nonland permanent with mana value X or less. Activate only as a sorcery.

    It's a better Ratchet Bomb that also manages to hate on fetchlands, force of will and some combo tools. When played turn one, it can lock your opponent out of the game by shutting off their fetchlands, akin to a turn one Opposition Agent. It does synergize poorly with Blood Moon (lets them tap their fetchlands for mana) and with Chalice to a degree. So perhaps it should be tested alongside 4 Dark Ritual in the Curse Stompy list that Reeplcheep is so fond of.

    Much less exciting is...

    Timeless Lotus 5
    Legendary Artifact
    Timeless Lotus enters the battlefield tapped.
    T: Add WUBRG

    It's a bigger Thran Dynamo that synergizes really well with both Golos (a staple in big mana decks) and with Manifold Key (a staple of MUD/Metalworker decks of years past).

    These are the two lists I arrived at and its been doing very well for me on MTGO all day...

    Decklist

    I don't have Chalice, and I'm not convinced Chalice is that good anymore in the era of Boseji, Meltdown and Prismatic Ending. Plus it synergizes poorly with Karn's Sylex. So above is what I arrived at.

    Any input or suggestions on how to improve the above lists, or bring MUD to 2022?
    MUD just really needs some new cards to compete with the other decks. I've been waiting for some time now and still nothing...
    I don't think Karn's Sylex is the answer that brings MUD to life in 2022. I might be slightly better than Ratchet Bomb, more impact, but also more expensive.

    I'm hoping our brother's war will bring some fresh power to MUD, back-breaking strong artifacts that will make Metalworker and Forgemaster stronger again. It's time to replace Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Myr Battlesphere, Steel Hellkite and Lodestone Golem... we need stronger cards in order to compete in my opinion.

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