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Thread: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

  1. #1
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    'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    [Paper Only on 9/10/22]


    The Deck:


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    EDIT: Most Recent List I've Personally Played - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5115283#paper
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    'Original' List:

    4 Boarding Party

    4 Creative Technique

    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

    4 Etherium-Horn Sorcerer

    2 Maelstrom Wanderer

    3 Sakashima's Protégé

    1 Sweet-Gum Recluse

    4 Ancient Tomb

    2 Boseiju, Who Endures

    4 City of Traitors

    4 Crystal Vein

    2 Hickory Woodlot

    1 Mountain

    4 Otawara, Soaring City

    4 Sandstone Needle

    4 Saprazzan Skerry

    4 Sulfur Vent

    1 Svyelunite Temple

    1 Taiga

    3 Tinder Farm

    ----------------Sideboard----------------

    2 Boseiju, Who Endures

    3 Commandeer

    2 Fry

    1 Grasping Dunes

    1 Keruga, the Macrosage

    2 Leyline of the Void

    3 Mirrorshell Crab

    1 Seething Song

    This is 30 Sol Lands, 22 Spells, and the idea is to put any spell on the stack (usually Turn 3) and hopefully win the game that turn. Why? Because there are only 3 categories of spells in the maindeck.

    Spells that inevitably Cascade “down” into Creative Technique as a trigger when they are put on the stack (in the case of Maelstrom Wanderer, sometimes twice and through other Cascade spells).

    Creative Technique, which copies itself when it gets put on the stack and Cascades “up” (again, twice) into any other spells it finds in the deck.

    Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.

    So the gag is it’s a resonance chamber of sorts. Any spell you cast in whole deck (assuming it’s not Creative Technique or Emrakul itself) adds an extra Creative Technique to the stack until you run out or choose to shut the process down, which copies itself and becomes two “branches” that grab more spells to add to the stack which will either be Maelstrom Wanderer (which itself creates two more “branches” of new spells on the stack), a Cascade Creature that adds both itself and a Creative Technique to the stack, or another Creative Technique which copies itself. Usually, you’ll hit an Emrakul (amongst a lot of other stuff). Sometimes you won’t and you’ll just have to swing for 73 points of haste damage with your 12 new creatures.

    The thesis of competitive advantage here is, besides redundancy with 18 effective 1-card combos and the ability to easily Mulligan to 4 if needed, that this all happens with Cast Triggers which means as soon you start you immediately get 2 “streams”, so this one combo-threat would take 2 counterspells to stop in its track since each stream, due to the nature of the deck, begins multiplying itself. Your opponent gets spells out of this process too, but they get far fewer and usually irrelevant spells (much like how they get a permanent off of Show and Tell). In theory, if they have both a Force of Will in hand and another one off the top of the deck as their random spell on the very first Creative Technique they could shut the whole thing down, but that’s just the risk you’ll have to take.

    After both playing against a Creative Technique deck piloted by Lee Hung Nguyen (twitch.tv/1mrlee) and seeing PVDH’s recent youtube video with a similar concept (see link in opener) I wanted to include a deck of this kind in my latest round of deck submissions, but I started tinkering with it and think it just plays best when running only those spells and powering them out using 30 Sol Lands.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Weaknesses:

    • Teferi, Thalia, and Trinisphere do shut down the combo. This is why there are 4 Otawara and 2 Boseiju maindeck. You don’t have a lot of opportunity to dig for them, however, as the deck has no filtering mechanisms other than taking mulligans. It’s running 100% off of threat redundancy. There are two Fry in the sideboard, but putting spells with <6 CMC in the deck comes at a price so even against something like a 4x Teferi deck whether you want them in or not is likely play/draw dependent.
    • Mindbreak Trap is fantastic against you here. There are 3 Commandeer in the sideboard which do function as an answer to Mindbreak Trap, but 2x Blue Cards is a ridiculous price to ask from a deck with only 9x Blue cards maindeck. This is actually the main utility of the Keruga companion (being a summonable-to-hand Blue card that’s always available). Still, the resiliency and consistency of the combo begins to drop as you sideboard cards in. Even sideboarding in just the 3 Commandeer without choosing to board in any additional blue Sideboard cards should expose your initial combo to Force of Will about 12% of the time (since 1/8th of the time you’ll hit a useless Commandeer off the first Technique copy and that exposes your combo to a single counterspell).
    • You’re a Turn 3 combo deck without maindeck interaction to leverage against faster combo decks (unless they just so happen to be vulnerable to Boseiju or Otawara).
    • You can absolutely not win against an early Life from the Loam + Wasteland Lock. Rishadan Ports should also provide some headaches, but it’s worth noting that two of the Cascade “initiaters” in the deck have Flash.
    • The average independent card quality of this deck is somewhere just north of a pack of Fallen Empires. (There’s actually an ETB tapped land from Fallen Empires in here.)
    • Sometimes if your opponent is playing with pieces that lock your combo out there’s a chance they could Technique into them “mid-chain” and stop your combo from continuing to grow the stack any farther than it has grown, in which case the game will devolve into a strange limited-type game where your 7/5, your 6/3, and your 3/6 are up against your opponent and the one other permanent they randomly added to their board from their library.
    • If we hit an opponent’s Tendrils of Agony off Creativity late in the chain we can amusingly combo off for the opponent and kill ourselves with their Tendrils.
    • Surgical Extraction is not as good against it as some opponents might expect (as left to it’s own devices our “chain” puts all 4 creative techniques before the first one hits the stack) but Surgical Extraction + Countermagic does cut our chain pretty short.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Singleton Card Reasonings:

    Sweet-Gum Recluse - The 1x Recluse looks weird since it could be another Sakashima’s Apprentice (which is easier to cast off the manabase combinatorically and is Blue for Commandeer), but when your combo gets halted part-way through or you just fail to hit an Emrakul, you want the strongest board of randos that you can and Sweet-Glum is an effect that can give some portion of them (based on the random sequencing) +3/+3, and a single Sweet-Glum can then be cloned by Sakashima’s Apprentice for further pumping. Furthermore, if you get into a situation where you have to pass the turn having a creature with Reach has non-0 value, and a single Sweet Glum can turn a hand with Hickory Woodlot as your sole source of colored-mana functional.

    Keruga, The Macrosage – Mostly in the deck to enable Commandeer (both as anti-hate and against some faster combo decks), but conceivably you could also end up with a massive board behind an Ensnaring Bridge and he could come down and draw you 9 or 10 cards into a Boseiju/Otawara. I feel good about him in the deck but I’d be tempted not to declare him Game 1 (until after your opponent sees what you’re doing).

    Svyelunite Temple – This looks like an odd singleton in the manabase but really it’s fighting against the fourth hypothetical Tinder Farm here. Sakashima’s Apprentice is still a little awkward to cast with this “30 Sol Land” manabase, so another 1-card source of double-blue was desired. I’m not actually positive that 3/1 is the appropriate Tinder Farm / Svyelunite Temple split, but Tinder Farm is a sac-land that produces precious Red Mana and emables Boseiju. Going down to 0 Sveylunite Temple really hurts the castability of Sakashima’s Apprentice though, so if 1 Sveylunite Temple is wrong it’s probably wrong in the other direction. (Yes, I am aware that last sentence is a sentence I just wrote to present to people in the context of Legacy.)

    Taiga – There is a desire for 1-mana untapped Lands here because they are very good at enabling turn 3 Techniques and Turn 2 Boseiju’s. Since those are the two main functions of this land, it’s a Taiga. There is a temptation to make this a Mossfire Valley instead since there are no 1-CMC cards in the deck and technically that card has better combinatorics in casting Maelstrom Wanderer, but I think the threat of being Boseiju’d yourself outweighs the niche MW mana combinatorics.

    Mountain – Given the above, why isn’t this Mountain also a Taiga? Honestly there’s a good chance it should be for Boseiju’s sake, but there are so many random “Pro Basic” effects (from fringe Ghost Quarter to Veteran Explorer) as well as lines where you may want to protect a land from Wasteland that I can’t convince myself to make this move yet.

    Seething Song – If your opponent really isn’t playing any countermagic, why not just make it a Turn 2 deck instead? I could even buy the argument that there should be 2 Seething Song in the sideboard, but as tempting as making this a Turn 2 deck sounds, remember that you often have to sacrifice lands to commit to going for the combo so this acceleration is a huge liability against blue decks and that Seething Song clutters up your combo on the other end as well when it gets hit by Creative Technique.

    Grasping Dunes – Sneaking another answer for Thalia into the sideboard.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cards to Consider:

    Emrakul, The Promised End – It’s a cast trigger you can put in the deck that gives you an extra turn of the opponent’s when you hit it. A little cute and fancy, but something worth noting the existence of since the deck is all about exploiting cast triggers that countermagic has problems with.

    Ipnu Rivulet – If Doomsday is an opponent you’re expecting an overabundance of and 3x Commandeer 3x Mirrorshell Crab is insufficient, this is a card you could play in the board that should prove awkward for them to navigate without adding to the clutter you’re making of the combo itself.

    Aurora Phoenix – A 6 mana cascade threat in the right colors that’s a 5/3 Flyer. I don’t think it makes the cut given the competition, but what do I know?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ending:

    Anyways, that’s all I’ve got. This is all theory crafting I’ve come up with in the last 24 hours or so as I’ve never played an actual game with this yet, but goldfishing it sure is fun in itself and, again, I appear to be denied the ability to submit it to the people I designed it for, so … here you go, for what it’s worth. Also any input you have on the deck is appreciated as good or bad I do intend to run this soon myself.
    Last edited by Rationalist; 09-28-2022 at 08:59 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Interesting deck. The consistent goldfish is awesome.

    Lowest hanging fruit: You get to run Keruga, the Macrosage in the SB for free. That guarantees you a threat and extra card in hand, even if you can't pull off the combo. Companion gives you something to do with your mana before you hit 5. It also gives you +1 blue card (see Commandeer).
    Edit: Did not notice Keruga was already buried in the list.

    The next step is to find ways to interact with interaction without disrupting the engine. It's a shame you can't run Defense Grid, as that both protects you from counters and stops opponent from casting their copies if you choose that option. You're limited to lands or CMC 6+.

    Echo of Eons costs 6! It plays very well with aggressive mulligans and big mana. If you hit in the combo, it won't cascade into more spells, but it does reload your hand. When you fail to combo, it could help reload on resources.

    All is Dust may be appealing in the SB. It's a catch-all answer to most permanent-based hate and creature swarms as long as you can ramp to 7. Blast Zone is another options for low CMC stuff.

    Colossal Skyturtle could be good tech too. It bounces an early Murktide Regent/Marit Lage or returns a disrupted piece to your hand.

    Split cards let you cheat and play below 6 CMC, because technically their CMC is the combined cost of both spells.
    Reason // Believe costs "6" but is turn 1 library manipulation into a way to cheat Emrakul into play!!
    Discovery // Dispersal costs "7" for a 2-mana cantrip
    Expansion // Explosion costs "6" for a Fork that could be used to counter counterspells or double up on your own Creative Technique. Don't know if that's any good.
    Supply // Demand unfortunately costs "5", otherwise you could run a 3-mana tutor
    Crime // Punishment is a "7" cmc XBG board wipe for permanent-based hate. Bad off cascade, good in opening hand.

  3. #3

    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Is there enough Red in the deck for Pyrokinesis instead of Fry? And would Bojuka Bog be serviceable instead of Leyline of the Void? With those changes your SB plan never whammys you when you cascade aside from the song.

    Edit: D'oh, not never, just much less. Maelstrom Wanderer still hits Pyro.

  4. #4
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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Went 4-0 tonight at the Mox Boarding House Ballard (Card Kingdom) Legacy Weekly, beating Merfolk, Lands, WG Depths, and 4C Minsc Pile.

    I'll post the details I remember as a rundown with lessons learned in the next 24 hours or so (I promised my architect I'd send her an email tonight with house measurements and stuff and it's almost 10:30 already).

    Was exciting. Drew a crowd and one or two people took pictures.

    I appreciate the input and ideas. Please keep them coming. =)

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Great result! Well done.

    I watched the YouTube video and am confused. Creative Technique's Demonstrate ability is optional. You don't have to use it. Then you only get 1 Creative Technique (instead of 2 branches), but you also don't give opponent a free spell. Against a goldfish, always branching makes sense. Against Show and Tell, I don't understand why the pilot (you?) made the copy. Opponent got free Griselbrand and Emrakul, prolonging the game, when it could have been a much faster win without the copy. With only 1 branch you still get 4 creatures in play, including a good shot at free Emrakul. The more times you use Demonstrate, the higher chance opponent hits a dangerous card (Griselbrand, Emrakul, Force of Will, cantrip -> Force of Will, Show and Tell -> big thing from hand, Cunning Wish -> Mindbreak Trap/Flusterstorm from SB?).

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Great result! Well done.

    I watched the YouTube video and am confused. Creative Technique's Demonstrate ability is optional. You don't have to use it. Then you only get 1 Creative Technique (instead of 2 branches), but you also don't give opponent a free spell. Against a goldfish, always branching makes sense. Against Show and Tell, I don't understand why the pilot (you?) made the copy. Opponent got free Griselbrand and Emrakul, prolonging the game, when it could have been a much faster win without the copy. With only 1 branch you still get 4 creatures in play, including a good shot at free Emrakul. The more times you use Demonstrate, the higher chance opponent hits a dangerous card (Griselbrand, Emrakul, Force of Will, cantrip -> Force of Will, Show and Tell -> big thing from hand, Cunning Wish -> Mindbreak Trap/Flusterstorm from SB?).
    Point of clarification:

    I'm not the one in the video. I'm just "citing my sources" since watching that video gave me the inspiration for the more "all in" version of the deck. (I didn't want to pretend I was the first person in the world to throw cascade cards into a deck with creativity - I just made this "forced echo chamber" all in combo version that's half Sol Lands). I'd have to rewatch it to try to guess their exact motives, but like you I don't know their exact thoughts.

    Having played the deck I will say that there are times when you don't want to demonstrate (if you're confident you can win with what you have deterministically and the opponent has relevant disruption) so I suspect your analysis may well be correct, and they may have just made a poor play decision. One of the interesting things about the deck is that you can just "low-ball it" outright and simply grab 4 or 5 random creatures. I don't know their full list though. This entire thing started when I tried to recreate their list to submit to Bryant Cook and then suddenly realized I could make it much better by going in a different "all in" direction. I'm still naive in piloting this deck, but in my version at least I'd still demonstrate against Show and Tell by default. If you don't demonstrate you expose your stream to their countermagic since they would only need 1 FoW to shut you down, and as long as they don't hit an immediate Griselbrand to dig for answers on their first Creativity it doesn't seem much different than demonstrating against a blue deck which you should just go far over the top of.

    Here's the kind of board state you can generate if your opponent can't shut down your stream early. (The die represents 2 extra turns on the stack.)



    The fact that extra Emrakuls (or Sakashima's Apprentices copying Emrakul) can shuffle Creative Techniques back into your library is quite fun.

    In general though, yeah, sometimes it's not right to go for it, but given that the combo becomes more vulnerable when you don't push at least at the start, at least in my version (without the Show and Tell "junk" hits and so forth), I'd certainly push the demonstrate at least on the first one if not further.

  7. #7

    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Went through gatherer for more options for the SB that would work for this deck. Found a few more Split cards that could have merit.

    Catch // Release
    Consign // Oblivion
    Never // Return

    All offer an answer to 3Feri at least which seems to be the toughest of the 3 big hate pieces you listed to deal with. The first 2 are also blue for Commandeer with Catch // Release also pitching to Pyrokinesis. The mana would need to change to incorporate Never // Return, but I left it included for completeness.

    Bound // Determined

    Need an extra 2 mana on the go off turn, but Determined serves as protection on the combo turn and hitting Bound off of Creative Technique isn't too bad.

    Rough // Tumble

    Might be better than Pyrokinesis for dealing with Thalia/Small creatures.

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Here's the kind of board state you can generate if your opponent can't shut down your stream early. (The die represents 2 extra turns on the stack.)
    While this is certainly fun for meme value, half that board state would accomplish the same thing in 99% of games. You could generate an even crazier board state, but is that necessary? The "low ball" board state of 4-5 creatures should be enough to win most games (Edit: against most decks. Not only talking about Show and Tell here).

    Imho you should weigh the necessity of extra branches (to get enough gas to win) against the risk of opponent hitting powerful cards to stop you. That varies by deck. Show and Tell is a worst case scenario: big fatties, blue counters, cantrips into counters, Cunning Wish into Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap (to end all branches at once!). There are at least 20 bad reveals possible, some enabling them to shut down multiple branches. Their plan is also to cast big spells for free, they don't need help. Against fair blue control, it makes more sense to Demonstrate the first 1-2 times to dodge Force (but too many times and you can dig them into a board wipe or T3feri).
    Last edited by FTW; 09-14-2022 at 05:54 PM.

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    The "low ball" board state of 4-5 creatures should be enough to win most games.
    Against Show and Tell with no Disruption of my own?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Imho you should weigh the necessity of extra branches (to get enough gas to win) against the risk of opponent hitting powerful cards to stop you.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Show and Tell is a worst case scenario: big fatties, blue counters, cantrips into counters, Cunning Wish into Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap (to end all branches at once!). There are at least 20 bad reveals possible, some enabling them to shut down multiple branches. Their plan is also to cast big spells for free, they don't need help. Against fair blue control, it makes more sense to Demonstrate the first 1-2 times to dodge Force (but too many times and you can dig them into a board wipe or T3feri).
    I'm not ... positive I agree yet (unless Mindbreak Trap is stock now and I missed it, in which case maybe I do).

    I mean it's a reasonable argument, but I'm not sure it's worth capping the ceiling of the combo at four to 5 random creatures against Show and Tell as I'm not positive that clock is enough pressure to be relevant against their average hand. Rather than trying to "philosophize" this one though, let me actually investigate some hypergeometric possibility trees with a stock-ish list and really hammer out what the numbers look like here. Regardless of the outcome, it will probably be educational for me to look at some actual probabilities here, so thanks for raising this either way.

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by LennonMarx View Post
    Went through gatherer for more options for the SB that would work for this deck. Found a few more Split cards that could have merit.

    Catch // Release
    Consign // Oblivion
    Never // Return

    All offer an answer to 3Feri at least which seems to be the toughest of the 3 big hate pieces you listed to deal with. The first 2 are also blue for Commandeer with Catch // Release also pitching to Pyrokinesis. The mana would need to change to incorporate Never // Return, but I left it included for completeness.

    Bound // Determined

    Need an extra 2 mana on the go off turn, but Determined serves as protection on the combo turn and hitting Bound off of Creative Technique isn't too bad.

    Rough // Tumble

    Might be better than Pyrokinesis for dealing with Thalia/Small creatures.
    Consign // Oblivion is a nice find. EDIT: I don't think it's a fantastic answer to Teferi though since I can't cast it as an instant and it doesn't destroy it so it requires 7/8 mana to go off with more specific color requirements, but it's a flexible answer for some other things.

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Re: FTW's thoughts re: Demonstrating the Combo vs. Omnishow

    This is probably a healthy thing to do spend some time thinking about so I did. Feel free to correct me if and where you think I'm losing the plot here.

    For some reason, initially, I thought I could do the same kind of hypergeometric "tree" I usually do manabase calculations (example:https://i.imgur.com/s3aGtW7.png) to resolve this issue, but I now think this isn't necessary so I'm going to do a quick facsimile of this sort of thing. To try to investigate this, I grabbed the most recent JPA Omnishow list from MTGGoldfish (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5094284#paper) to serve as my prototypical 'stock/expected list' and tried to break up the spells they could technique into maindeck into "Wiffs", "Marginal", "Conditional", "FoW-Level Answers", "Problematic", and "Bangers" under the hypothetical scenario in which you're going off T3 against 3 untapped mana.

    Taking a good number of liberties to keep this manageable, this is what I got

    Wiffs 6/41 ~ 14.6%

    2x Jace
    4x Lotus Petal

    Marginal 15/41 ~ 36.6%

    4x Veil of Summer
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    3x Emrakul

    Conditional 10/41 ~ 24.4%

    4x Show and Tell
    3x Eureka
    3x Omniscience

    FoW-Level Answers ~17.0%

    4x FoW
    3x Intuition

    Problematic 3/41 ~ 7.3%

    3x Griselbrand

    Bangers

    Nothing

    Quick justification because there's more to talk about.

    • Jace isn't going to do anything until and unless I pass the turn and there are no lines where the 4th mana turns on a relevant line from hand
    • All of the non-creature spells in 'Marginal' have a small chance of drawing a Force of Will and Emrakul is relevant because it sets a floor in how much value we need to get off the combo. These have real utility for the opponent, but are closer to a Wiff than a Force of Will.
    • All of the cards in "Conditional" are more useful than digging 3 cards deeper for an answer, but given the composition of the deck have a hypothetical "expectation number of answers" level less than just getting 1 Force of Will. This is probably the most attackable assumption of this analysis, as with Intuition or Griselbrand in hand this turns into Drawing 14 cards. However, since the only maindeck answer they have is Force of Will, I think when you combine the chance that there hand meets that condition with the variance of drawing 14 cards, that this should easily be worth less than 1 Force of Will in expectation value.
    • The best thing that intuition can grab here with a natural expectation of getting a Show and Tell effect later in the turn with this deck is just FoW, so it's a FoW. Technically Intuition would be the worse of the two here due to the pitch-card required to cast FoW from hand, but that's a nuance we're paving over.


    So according to this rough breakdown there's about a 75% chance that what they get is worse than a FoW, about 17% chance that what they get will directly or effectively be a FoW, and about a 7% chance that what they get will be Griselbrand, which is the one card they could hit that could be worse for us than them getting a FoW.

    The point here is that by not demonstrating, comparatively, we're giving them exactly one free FoW, which is clearly at the upper end of the probability distribution of what they could get. That's not the end of the issue, though, because the relevant question would then become how bad for us would we expect the Griselbrand hit to be? So let's assume that they highroll that 7% off the Creative Technique and hit a Griselbrand, have 50 cards left in their library, and all 4 FoW and 3 Intuition (which we are counting as FoWs) are in there. I went and plugged these numbers into a hypergeometic calculator, assumed they drew 14 of those cards, and this is what I got:

    Probability n = 0 : ~8%
    Probability n = 1 : ~27%
    Probability n > 1 : ~64%

    There's more detail we could break these numbers into because we're being pretty rough, but here's the picture as we've established it at the resolution of this analysis.

    When we demonstrate to this opponent, about ([7.3 X 0.64]%) ~ 4.67% of the time we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot, give them a Griselbrand, and see them draw into multiple answers. The other ~95% of probability space consists of them doing no better in halting our gameplan than if we had simply not demonstrated, and most of THAT portion of probability space (3/4s of all possibilities) consist of them getting a "Conditional", "Marginal", or "Wiff" off the technique, all of which are outcomes in which we would expect it is more likely than not that our combo will be safer than if we had not demonstrated.

    The decision that is presented to us is then this:

    1. We can choose not to demonstrate our first technique, in which case if our opponent has any of the 7 "FoW" level cards in hand they will stop our combo immediately. If not, then we will summon 4 or 5 creatures (depending on what spell initiated our cascade stream), which variably may or may not have haste, and try to use them to clock an opponent about to start their Turn 4 on Omnishow against no opposing disruption from our side of the table.

    OR

    2. We can demonstrate, raise the ceiling of our combo so that if our opponent doesn't stop it we will likely win without passing the turn at the cost of taking ~5% risk that we'll give the opponent the ability to stop us after the first Creative Technique even if they didn't have it already, but actively preventing our opponent from stopping our combo if they don't high-roll that very first creative technique.

    I feel much better about option 2. Keep in mind that after the first demonstration, the next time we demonstrate we'll have 3 copies of creative technique on the stack and it will be even harder than to stop the combo than it was before (making each subsequent demonstration safer than the previous one).

    This is pretty rough and I'm admittedly I'm only putting 30 or 40 minutes into this post and its math, but as a Fermi calculation to make this yes or no decision, I think it makes sense.

    Am I getting something wrong here? Happy to correct and refine this outlook in the name of piloting this deck better as I'm rather enamored by it at the present time.

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    ... (continued)

    FTW did allude to a Cunning Wish build though, which does seem more dangerous than the JPA list I pulled in this regard. I did find one more recent placing with a Cunning Wish build so I'll rerun this kind of Fermi-style calc here with that build later today.

    [Will edit in here when appropriate]

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Thanks for doing that detailed analysis.

    The deck in the video had better hits than JPA's. Against JPA's recent UG EurekaTell list I agree. But Jace is rare. Looking at recent results there's a wide range of Show and Tell lists. There isn't really a stock build like there is for Delver.

    If you see Cunning Wish like the video then there is a Wishboard. A Wishboard could have 1 copy of Flusterstorm or Mindbreak Trap. Either could end all your branches.

    DANGER Cards:
    Griselbrand -> draw 14 into many answers or cantrips into answers + lifelink blocker
    Cunning Wish -> possible Mindbreak/Fluster to end all branches
    Flusterstorm -> can counter multiple Creative Techniques (not in JPA's list or video, but maindeck in some lists)
    Force of Will -> counters 1 Creative technique
    Intuition -> Puts Force or other answer in hand (not in the video deck)
    Emrakul -> extra turn could happen before yours and annihilate your creatures before they attack

    Conditionally dangerous:
    Brainstorm -> Can put FoW, Wish or Fluster in hand
    Ponder -> Can put FoW, Wish or Fluster in hand
    Omniscience -> Lets them dig for answers or maybe even combo off before your branches resolve (Cunning Wish -> Firemind's Foresight -> ... -> set up Release the Ants)
    Show and Tell -> bad if Griselbrand or Omni in hand
    Sneak Attack -> bad if Griselbrand is in hand (not in the video deck or JPA's list)
    Eureka -> bad if Griselbrand or Omni in hand

    It definitely depends on the build. Given the variations between builds and the potentially dangerous cards in many, Show and Tell seems like the worst case scenario for Demonstrate. Most other decks don't have as many dangerous hits.

    Against a generic fair blue deck, I agree with you that Demonstrate is worth it. They have some probability of hitting a counter while you get a guaranteed 2nd copy, so overall it improves your odds to beat counters (especially FoW in hand on the 1st copy).

    Until there's sufficient playtesting of real matchups, this will be all theory. Maybe when you test more you'll find something different.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-14-2022 at 05:47 PM.

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Until there's sufficient playtesting of real matchups, this will be all theory. Maybe when you test more you'll find something different.
    One of the reasons I'm hoping popularize the deck a little, for sure.

    Also, what do you think, reasonable new sideboard card to test? (Being non-colorless is a small concern but I like some of what it opens up.)


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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    It looks like decent tech. But when do you bring it in? If you're casting big cascade spells, you should already beat a board of X/2s? Edit: Maybe D&T and Elves?

    Is there anything good that would shuffle Creative Techniques back into your library so you can go through more than 4? Echo of Eons? Time Spiral? Time Spiral lets you untap to cast another cascader/Creative Technique to keep going off. Seems good.

    Is 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All worth it to help force through the first copy?

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)



    This looks interesting.

    On another note, I think you're focusing too much on the Show&Tell MU.
    This is obviously bad and will stay that way.
    It's probably best to not demonstrate or only do it at the start and gamble to get the ball rolling.
    Rather, focus on the other MU where can easier edge out a win.

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Rather, focus on the other MU where can easier edge out a win.
    Those should be easy. The deck is so redundantly built: 38x land 18x Creative Technique 4x Emrakul. Consistent goldfish should be easy. Matchups with minimal resistance should be easy. Unlike Hypergenesis or Living End, the threats are ALSO the cascade engines and come from the library instead of a vulnerable zone (GY or hand), so the engine is much lower variance.

    The important question is how to help it fight bad matchups: disruption or faster combos. Especially because there is narrow design space to board in any tools without breaking the engine.

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    It looks like decent tech. But when do you bring it in?
    Against expected non-Teeg Hatebears would be the idea (so largely D&T, Esper Vial, Humans style decks), but this is what I'm still naively trying to figure out. It boards in as an effect very smoothly without disrupting the ratios naturally in the deck, the degree to which that effect is worth a sideboard slot is not immediately clear to me though so I'm an infant grabbing at blocks at this point to see if they fit in the hole and just fishing for outside perspective on which blocks I should focus on jamming in the hole first.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Is 1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All worth it to help force through the first copy?
    I don't think so. It's such an awkward 1-mana colorless ETB tapped land in a deck that's weakest point is often mana-disruption (EDIT: Well, mana-disruption and a quick combo if not v. a quicker combo). Even if I do cast Creativity off of it (which is itself only a minority of the hands since often you cast the cascader), it only protects one of the two copies from FoW, so it's specifically to stop the double-force line? I mean I did get double-forced + hydroblasted on the second creativity with 3 branches on the stack on Monday so it could come up, but I went on to win that game anyways just by jamming again later.

    Doesn't seem worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    On another note, I think you're focusing too much on the Show&Tell MU.
    It just came up conversationally; it's not like a tactical priority of the deck build over anything else. Please don't over-interpret the fact that I wrote paragraphs of analysis in response as it being a focus of the deck, I do that for basically everything as time allows (I believe that post starts with a link for me doing the same thing in more depth for whether or not to include the second copy of a marginal land in WU Bomberman circa 2019 or so). I appreciate that no one here knows me or my background personally, but as an anecdote ever since my father was diagnosed with diabetes some years back he has taken to running analysis on graphs of his blood-sugar throughout the day, every day, and using them to optimize his diet and eating schedule, and behaviorally I'm very much my father's son if you know what I mean.

    I'm not focusing on Show and Tell from my perspective, I just spend half an hour plotting out the math for it because it seemed like a way to investigate a region of ignorance I had that was in the spotlight and it's what I do instead of ... tapping my foot or something.

    EDIT: Just to be clear that doesn't mean my analysis is ANY GOOD, I just mean I do it a lot, good or bad.

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    The important question is how to help it fight bad matchups: disruption or faster combos. Especially because there is narrow design space to board in any tools without breaking the engine.
    Just so. (nods)

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    Re: 'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    Against expected non-Teeg Hatebears would be the idea (so largely D&T, Esper Vial, Humans style decks), but this is what I'm still naively trying to figure out. It boards in as an effect very smoothly without disrupting the ratios naturally in the deck, the degree to which that effect is worth a sideboard slot is not immediately clear to me though so I'm an infant grabbing at blocks at this point to see if they fit in the hole and just fishing for outside perspective on which blocks I should focus on jamming in the hole first.
    That's worth a test at least.

    Chandra, Awakened Inferno could also be strong and is uncounterable (Esper), but doesn't cascade.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rationalist View Post
    I mean I did get double-forced + hydroblasted on the second creativity with 3 branches on the stack on Monday so it could come up, but I went on to win that game anyways just by jamming again later.
    Nice. I think that's one of the best things your build has going for it: redundancy. Even if you get countered, just about every nonland draw lets you jam again.

    SB Dragonlord Dromoka doesn't let opponent cast spells on your turn. Which means they can't counter your things, can't cast anything off Demonstrate, and can't even counter the Dragon. Is that unnecessary overkill?

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