@Rationalist
At the risk of summoning another math paper that I mostly can follow, I have been goldfishing the deck -2 LtGB, -2 Recluse -1 Havenwood Battleground, +3 Throes of Chaos +2 Tibalt's Trickery and it seems solid (with the 4th Throes in the board still). The combo turns end up with a smaller board, but you don't generally need 70+ power to kill someone, and the ability to have turn 2 wins in the first game seems valuable against the deck's bad match-ups. Additionally, it allows for more actual sideboard cards, even if some of those end up being the LtGBs or Recluses for matches where being slower and more consistent is better. The main drawback I see is that Throes into Trickery can be stopped with one counterspell, but the deck seems so powerful against "normal" interaction that I don't feel like that's a huge weakness, though I'm willing to be wrong there, and obviously there is a huge delta between a turn 2 attempt that uses a Sandstone Needle + Ancient Tomb vs one that uses Sulfur Vents + Crystal Vein, the latter of which would be very risky against counter magic.
Also, I noticed that this deck has been popping up a few times on MTG Top 8, and one thing I notice in common among all of those Tinder Farm over Gemstone Caverns. Obviously it makes the goldfish more consistent, and I have noticed the "making the 5th mana in a deck that wants 6 mana" problem that you have mentioned before when I have been testing. Daze protection is great, and the occasional turn 2 CTs, but I think the turn 2 attempts are better served by the Throes + Trickery plan. I've yet to make the switch myself, but the more I read your primer section for Caverns the more it feels like Caverns is a good card in vacuum in a deck like this but I'm not convinced that it actually does all that much lifting for us.
If the deck isn't running throes/trickery, then it seems like the only card that cares about daze is the one that costs 5.Originally Posted by LennonMarx
There also aren't any Throes of Chaos/Tibalt's trickery piles in those lists.
The way the lands in this deck are set up, by necessity, makes Gemstones Caverns only really daze protection on curve for even mana cost spells, it's your 5th mana on turn 2 or your 7th on turn 3. From the lens of a protection spell, it might actually be the case that you play Caverns with the throes package to make the turn 2 a little more resilient and then cut the caverns in builds of the deck that only go for the 6+ Drop cascaders/side them out entirely when you're not on the throes plan.
Yeah, and some of the sideboards are fairly rough, too. I think this thread/Rationalist has the better list, but that one particular piece of the configuration (Farm over Caverns) seemed noteworthy to me. Might try it out the next time at the LGS.
@LennonMarx
This is great feedback and I highly appreciate it.
As it stands, I'm not (personally) swayed by the idea of playing this package main deck as I'm far more interested in the increased resiliency of the combo than the 1 turn against most decks I'm expecting to face. What's main deck and what's sideboard is always a meta call, however, and since by necessity we're playing in local metas, unless you also happen to be in the greater Seattle area, we're not necessarily playing in identical ones so I can't actually say you're "wrong" here, it just seems like a big sacrifice against blue-matchups across the board to level-up against fast combo. Maybe you're just seeing more fast combo, though.
As to the Gemstone Caverns, you seem to have the sentiment that I had early on when I first started playing around with the card (GC as the 5th mana out of 6 when counting by 2's). What I can say is that eventually I found GC to do more than I initially identified.
- It enables Turn 2 Creative Technique (if we assume 50% chance of being on the draw, never mulliganed, and never top-decked CT, this acceleration would happen in ~7% of all hands, so likely somewhere between 10% and 15% in practice)
- It provides insulation against Daze / Thalia / Thorn / Sphere effects
- It's another source of blue-mana for activating Otawara
- It makes Maelstrom Wanderer's 3-color requirement far easier to hit
- When counting to 6/8, it upgrades untapped singleton lands into effective untapped-Sols.
I encourage you to keep playing divergent lists if another way seems better to you (even just on a selfish level because it's good data for me) but I'm not currently interested in cutting Gemstone Cavern personally unless I really, really needed that space for something else.
So far I'm disagreeing with most of the ideas you're saying, but I'm still glad to have the input as if people only said things I already agreed with I wouldn't learn nuthin'.
The last thing you mention is Tinder Farm. It's a reasonable card and there are certainly reasons to run it, but I like Sulfur Vent more as I have little use for the singleton untapped green mana, and UR helps cast Maelstrom Wanderer which is often worth playing towards to go over the top of a sculpted, interactive hand, and I'm not even on the 4th Sulfur Vent currently.
Do you know what sideboard card actually felt great for me recently? Mirrorshell Crab
I initially tried bringing him back into the sideboard because being able to stifle Wastelands against Delver seemed worthwhile just because of how much you run into that deck and its analogues even at the lower Seattle-area numbers but he actually gave me a large amount of play against T3feri, as it's easy to hold open 2U as of Turn 2 (although technically Turn 1 is possible off of GC), he slowly turns into combo protection if they refuse to play into him, and the Otawara as additional Blue sources on top of GC make 2U a pretty reasonable ask.
Would hurt to summon one in off a CT in the early stages of chaining against most of the same decks you'd want him in hand against but he's a 5/7 with Ward 3 so that's still better than hitting Pyrokinesis in most situations where you're already comboing and a card like that is clearly worth the concession in its respective matchups.
... I'm really starting to dig the guy's flexibility.
Spotted another person playing the deck on Youtube this morning. Looks like it did not go well:
I guess double force of will into a turn 3 combo is the sort of power level that we should expect in legacy. Though that does look like a match-up where Mirrorshell Crab could win games.
Deck being played in Italy:
https://youtu.be/0cALTIl-SqA?t=20729
I saw this top 8 from a few days ago
// Sorcery (7)
4 Creative Technique
3 Let the Galaxy Burn
// Creatures (15)
1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze
2 Apex Devastator
3 Aurora Phoenix
4 Boarding Party
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Maelstrom Wanderer
1 Sweet-Gum Recluse
// Lands (38)
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Dwarven Ruins
4 Hickory Woodlot
1 Otawara, Soaring City
4 Sandstone Needle
3 Saprazzan Skerry
4 Sulfur Vent
4 Tinder Farm
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Colossal Skyturtle
SB: 4 Fury
SB: 2 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Seething Song
SB: 1 Thryx, the Sudden Storm
SB: 1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Neat build. But why maindeck Aeve?
There are 11 6cmc cascaders. If you lead off those, you have 4/5 (80%) chance to hit Creative Technique but 1/5 (20%) chance to immediately hit Aeve. Then that ends the chain and you only get 2 Oozes. 20% chance is not that rare. Did the player just get lucky and not see Aeve till later in the chain?
Been eyeing this deck for a while and it seems rightful my alley. Been playing 4c rhino cascade at our local tournaments and having lots of fun and good results. People are surprised by the deck, and I am that “cascade guy”. If you are interested take a look here : https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=39428&f=LE.
I would like to play this new deck Saturday for a change but I would like to play it as the “chef intented” as I see quite some variations and different count of lands/ spells and also type of lands. The source seems to be here so rather get your take on it.
What’s the current version people are running? If you have a side board guide even better.
Hopefully people will read this in the next 24 hours.
Thanks a lot !
Btw what’s the seething song for in the lists ?
I've played some games on Cockatrice, and gold fished quite some today. I came up with the following list after reading the whole thread :
Creature 14 cards
4 Boarding Party
4 Maelstrom Wanderer
3 Aurora Phoenix
2 Sweet-Gum Recluse
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Sorcery 6 cards
4 Creative Technique
2 Let the Galaxy Burn
Land 40 cards
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Saprazzan Skerry
4 Hickory Woodlot
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Dwarven Ruins
4 Otawara, Soaring City
3 Crystal Vein
3 Sulfur Vent
1 Havenwood Battleground
1 Mountain
Sideboard 15 cards
4 Throes of Chaos
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Mirrorshell Crab
2 Tibalt's Trickery
1 Maddening Hex
1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze
I came up with the following sideboard guide for myself, I might be missing some decks, but I do not have infinite amount of time to prepare.
I make a big distinction that when I am on the play in the sideboard matches I take out the GC's quite aggresively, as I think they are not as good on the play. I also would rather not take out cascade spells.
Let me know what you guys think
==============
Fast Combo
==============
on the Draw
+4 Throes of Chaos
+2 Tibalt's Trickery
-2 Let the Galaxy Burn
-3 Aurora Phoenix
-1 Sweet-Gum Recluse
On the Play
+4 Throes of Chaos
+2 Tibalt's Trickery
-2 Let the Galaxy Burn
-4 Gemstone Cavern
==============
Fast Combo Storm
==============
on the Draw
+4 Throes of Chaos
+2 Tibalt's Trickery
+1 Maddening Hex
-2 Let the Galaxy Burn
-1 Havenwood Battleground
On the Play
+4 Throes of Chaos
+2 Tibalt's Trickery
+1 Maddening hex
-2 Let the Galaxy Burn
-4 Gemstone Cavern
-1 Havenwood Battleground
==============
D&T // Goblins // Go-wide decks // Hatebears
==============
on the Draw
+4 Pyrokinesis
-2 Sweet-Gum Recluse
-1 Gemstone Caverns
-1 Havenwood Battleground
On the Play
+4 Pyrokinesis
-4 Gemstone Caverns
==============
Blue counter decks (Tempo/ Control)
==============
on the Draw
+3 Mirrorshell Crab
+1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze
-2 Let the Galaxy burn
-1 Sweet-Gum Recluse
-1 Havenwood Battleground
On the Play
+3 Mirrorshell Crab
+1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze
-2 Gemstone Caverns
-2 Let the Galaxy burn
==============
Fair green decks (Lands/ KotR decks)
==============
on the Draw
+3 Mirrorshell Crab
-2 Let the Galaxy burn
-1 Sweet-Gum Recluse
On the Play
+3 Mirrorshell Crab
-2 Let the Galaxy burn
-1 Gemstone Caverns
It looks good. Good luck! Rationalist is the deck expert here. He has the most experience with it and the SB plan.
Looks like Mark (above) made it to the quarter finals before being knocked out. Had an on camera match Round 7.
https://m.twitch.tv/videos/1781612222
Very excited to read the list and sideboard guide posted above, but don't have the time at the moment. Just popped in because we got someone on Camera.
Fantastic Job, Mark.
EDIT: I also played round 1 on camera against 8-cast, the full vod on twitch will come online soon.
I had an awesome day playing Mississippi River, I really believe the deck has serious power and plays against the current meta.
It was a 80 man tournament and I went 6-1-1 , loosing to infect in the quarter finals in top 8.
I had some extreme highs -> Mulling to 3 and playing a turn 2 Throes of Chaos into Tibalt's trickery and winning.
Some extreme lows ->
1. getting a deck check and unfortunately a game loss because, Then immediately loosing to a turn 2 Infect win. More about the deck check and loss tomorrow
2. Tie in a game and tying my opponent by forgetting Sweet-gum Recluse +3/+3 counters and not presenting lethal in the last turn. That actually made it that I faced different opponents in top 8 and stared down Infect, which I think is a very difficult match up.
Tomorrow I will write a tournament report! Also, consider yourself a new regular on this thread, hoping to play and develop the deck further.
I expect the decklist and the tournament statistics later tomorrow or Monday
Kind Regards, Mark // ToasTer86.
Highly looking forward to it.
One of my better friends and magic buddies started a new tournament series in The Netherlands. The series is called Bazaar of Boxes or BoB short. The unique selling point of the tournament is that proxies are allowed at the tournament. The nice thing about this that it allows you to easily sign up with whatever deck you want. As well as bringing in new players into the format. I really applaud them for all their efforts and hard work. They do how ever have a very strict and well written out proxy guide for any players attending the tournament. The BoB series 7 was played with 80 man and the grand prize was an ELM invitational.
Small side note, please leave out any discussions regarding if you think proxy tournaments are good/ bad for the format or Magic in general.
More about myself, and my results at the tournament. I’ve been playing legacy on-off since 2010, and I am the kind of player that really likes experimenting with different decks, and different cards in decks. I love those signature 1-offs, if you catch my drift.
Before any tournament basically all my free time goes into preparing my decklist, what deck to play, and playing such deck online on Cockatrice (still doubting about MTGO subscription).
For this legacy tournament I was doubting between 4 decks: Jund, Defiler Painter, 4c Rhinos, Mississippi River.
I ended up going with Mississipi River and got some good reps in online as well as gold fishing the deck. I owe my results and knowledge of the deck through the lively and well documented discussions off the deck on MTG the source.
Decklist:
4 Boarding Party
4 Maelstrom Wanderer
3 Aurora Phoenix
2 Sweet-Gum Recluse
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Creative Technique
2 Let the Galaxy Burn
4 Gemstone Caverns
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Saprazzan Skerry
4 Hickory Woodlot
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Dwarven Ruins
4 Otawara, Soaring City
3 Crystal Vein
3 Sulfur Vent
1 Havenwood Battleground
1 Mountain
4 Throes of Chaos
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Mirrorshell Crab
2 Tibalt's Trickery
1 Maddening Hex
1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze
I am a bit nervous before the tournament, off course I want to do well. Before the tournament I bump into some of my friends and shortly talk about the deck, as up on till now no one knew really what I was going to be playing.
Unfortunately I did not make super accurate notes each game so I will be explaining the games from memory and from my observations. Rounds 1 and 7 were played on stream. I will be updating this post with the vods link once it’s up on Youtube/ Twitch.
Round 1 Teus van der Meij Mono-Blue 8-Cast won 2-0-0
Teus is a very experienced 8-cast player, who’s been playing 8-cast since the early start. He was the winner of BoB series 6. Going undefeated if I remember. This match is played on stream, but there were some technical difficulties with the stream so I will still explain this game.
Game 1:
I win the die roll and grab a solid 7. I’ve got 6 mana turn 3, with green/red dual lands and 2 cascade targets.
I play my land and pass. Teus has a very explosive start, Emry into baubles and he ends the turn with a chalice on Zero (He clearly thinks I am playing 4c Rhinos) and if I remember correctly a turn 1 Kappa cannoneer. I play my second tap land and pass. Teus hits me with his cannoneer for 12 and its clear, I only have 1 more turn. I go “off” turn 3, he’s got 1 FoW but its not enough. I end up having to demonstrate all my Creative Techniques (CT’s) as I did not hit a Wanderer early. I win on the spot.
Game 2:
-1 Sweet-gum Recluse
+1 Aeve, ooze
I board in the Ooze, as I know Teus is a good player and he might be running surgical.
This game goes way slower for Teus, he’s kept a hand with lots of interaction but no real threat. He double Fows my first cast on turn 3, but turn 4 I cast another spell. The CT’s actually hit another CT twice, which really isn’t favorable. You would rather hit other cascade targets. To makes matter worse the 1-off Ooze gets hit early and I end with lots of tokens, and the chain ends I still have 1 CT on the stack and no real win. But luckily one of my last CT’s hits a wanderer and it’s enough.
Round 2 Wouter Roest Rakdos Painter won 2-0-0
I’ve seen Wouter once before, but its long ago. I don’t know what deck he’s playing.
Game 1:
I win the die roll, and there is no real interaction between each other. I go off turn 3.
Game 2:
I think the painter matchup is really good, I do not board anything in.
This game Wouter goes fast, turn 1 Fable, turn 2 Welder. Turn 3 I go off the CT hits another CT and Wouter shows his mindbreak trap, all my spells get exiled. But not until Wouter gets a fury and a engineer from the CT’s. He gets his defiler and it hits the GY.
On his turn he gets his defiler in play but I have no targets but he hits me for 6 dmg with the fury. Turn 4 I go again, but as 2 of my CT’s are exiled, I need to hit good. Unfortunately, I do not. I get 2 phoenix, Recluse and a boarding party. My 2 Phoenix with both +3/+3 are the real threat. But with now with the flipped Fable and a Defiler + weleder I know for sure I am dead. Luckily for me Wouter does not see the winning game play. He could have copied the defiler and destroyed my whole board.
After the game I ask Wouter if he’s open to talk about another play he could have done to win, but he tells me he is just learning the deck and he rather focus on it by himself. I totally respect that, keep it up Wouter!
Round 3 Bram Aarts Mono-Blue 8-Cast won 2-0-0
I’ve never played Bram before; he wins the die rol and its clear I am playing 8-cast again.
Actually, both games are also played quick. I go off turn 3 both times. Bram gets a bit unlucky game 2, his turn 1 Emry flips 2 Force of negations and 1 Fow into the GY. This actually makes a big difference as otherwise he would have demonstrated into those cards. Both turn 3 cast branch early and nicely into a Wanderer and I win both times turn 3. I ended up not Boarding the Ooze this time, as the risk of hitting it early is quite dangerous.
Interlude:
As of now I am feeling good about the deck and the way it’s been playing. People have been showing up around the table and the deck is being “talked about”. It’s fun explaining the deck and talking about the results.
Round 4 Sam Dams Bant Infect Sam Dams won 2-0-0
I do not know Sam Dams, but later I learn this player is really experienced and strong strong infect player from Belgium.
Game 1:
Unfortunately, here things go a bit south. I get a deck check and my deck is full of proxies. Normally I always double sleeve my decks, proxies or not. But with Proxies the deck gets really thick, card-paper-innersleeve-outer sleeve. I make the decision when sleeving up the deck earlier that week, that I will not be using innersleeves, the deck is really shuffle intensive and having the deck be smaller twill improve my dexterity and in such also the game speed during the tournament.
But I forgot about the proxy ruling, they either must be glued or innersleeved. So I end up getting a game loss. Thanks to the judge team and their support (Thanks again!) they help me inner sleeve the deck in 8 minutes and I can return to the match with a game loss.
Game 2:
I have a solid 7, play my tap land. Sam fetches and plays a glistener elf. I play another tap land.
Sam attacks, plays scale up and Invigorate and its GG…. I end up joking that “we will see each other in the finals” .
Interlude:
I try not to get down and bothered about this match and the game loss. Sh*t just happens, I made no errors in play or during the day yet. I just have to make sure I win the next round!
Round 5 kevin werf Mono-Black Mill won 2-0-0
I know Kevin, he typically plays non-fare non-blue decks. But I do not know whats he’s playing today.
Game 1:
He starts the game with an Leyline of the void, so I think its mono black helm. He plays a turn 1 Sheoldred with a lotus petal and a dark Ritual. He discards one of my spells on turn 2. Turn 3 I go off and win.
Game 2:
+4 Throes of Chaos
+2 Tibalt's Trickery
-2 Let the Galaxy Burn
-3 Aurora Phoenix
-1 Sweet-Gum Recluse
I know my opponent is on the play and he’s seen the deck. I think he understands his only out is discard spells. So I go for the “Throes of Chaos package”, the retrace on the card will protect me against discard. I end up having to mull to 3, before seeing any Throes in my hand. I must say I am clenching my but cheeks, as I’ve never mulled to 3 before on a tournament, this just feels wrong ;-). Kevin must be either confused or think the deck power comes at a great cost of consistency but actually mulling this low is correct. I did not want to play the other hands as I want the critical mass of cascaders in my deck and not in my hand. He turn 1 thoughseize me. I play my tap land. Kevin plays something I forget. Turn 2 I play my crystal vein, discard my other land to retrace Throes into Tibalt Trickery. I go “off” and for the first time today I hit my Emrakul!
Round 6 Tomas Lens Aluren 1-1-0 Draw
I have not seen or played Tomas before, but I get a tip that he most likely playing alluren.
Game 1:
I combo turn 3, my CT’s hit to many CT’s so I am forced to demonstrate often. This results into my opponent getting a Alluren from one of my CT. This is not good…..
He gets to cantrip with CT into ponder and hits a Baleful strix and he chains as well, he ends up bricking a bit with 3 baleful strix and 4 Ice fang coatls and a Uro. Phew…. I still have a chance. My chains are good I hit a recluse early. But here I make the first misplay of the day, I forget the recluse trigger no +3/+3 counters, which ends up costing me the game. I have to brute force myself through 7 death touchers… But with the missed counters I do not get through enough damage this turn, or the next. He wins the following turn.
Game 2:
+3 Mirrorshell Crab
+1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze
-4 Gemstone Caverns
I combo on turn 3, I choose to only demonstrate 1 CT. I have critical mass, but he has a Swords for the wanderer. So, I loose haste. But its still enough and I win the next turn.
Game 3:
I have to mull to 5 as the type of lands do not match with the spells in my hand. This did not happen before yet, the deck and draws feel consistent so I think this is just bad luck. Tomas just ponders and plays nothing, he’s got interaction!
I only have 1 play on turn 3 and the CT’s get double Forced. Luckily I draw another spell on the next turn, but he is able to double Force again. We are both empty and we run out of time this round.
Round 7 Bjorn Keulemans Rakdos Painter won 2-0-0
I do not know Bjorn, but I know he’s playing painter, he’s also seen my deck. As he had a deck check while sitting beside me so he saw the deck in action. He knows what’s up.
This match can be seen on stream. So, I will keep it brief.
Game 1:
I win off my combo turn 3, it’s still really close call. He almost has his combo assembled.
Game 2:
Bjorn got some sideboard tech, and he get a turn 2 Thorn of amethyst. This will make my CT’s cost 1 more after cascading. The gem stone cavern I hit this game really helps!! I calculate that I must have at least 3 CT’s to get critical mass so this delays me 2 turns. This makes me sequence my tap lands differently. I end up going turn 4. With 3 extra mana available. The combo with 3 CT goes quite strong, I only copy once as I know my opponent has no mana and is tapped out. I don’t want to give him a petal or mox. This would open window to blast my Wanderer. I get a good chain and have lethal and win.
It’s important to note how Thorn interacts with Cascaded spells and CT (I call a judge for this) as I’ve made earlier mistakes in other tournaments “assuming MTG rules”. In the end me and my opponent are both happy we did, as unexpectly the Thorn interacts differently than expected with “Copies”. The game goes close and I later find out that he was 1 land short to win with the combo as he will also have to use the spear to remove Emrakul ( Thanks Emrakul )
Round 8 Sam Dams Bant Infect Sam Dams won 2-1-0
A clean top 8 split, unfortunately I must play against the hardest deck in top 8 immediately. That missed trigger in round 6 really costs me here. As I could have won there and would not have had to face Sam immediately (or at all).
Game 1:
No turn 2 kill this time. But he’s able to double force my first CT on turn 3. He wins the next turn.
Game 2:
-4 Gemstone Caverns
+4 Pyrokenis
He’s able to triple daze my turn 3 CT. But he’s not presenting a threat just yet. I hit the combo on turn 4 again. My first CT hits another CT. As predicted,my opponent is smart. He counters 1 off the non copy CT’s in response to a CT hitting a Boarding party and immediately surgicals the remaining 2 CT in my deck, unfortunately I did not board the Ooze this time.…. At this moment I still have 2 CT’s on the stack. The first resolves and it’s a recluse, not a good hit, the cascade does not hit anything because of the surgical. I resolve the last CT, I shuffle my deck, Sam cuts it. If I remember right, the first card I flip is Emrakul, my boy there to save the day ;-)
Game 3:
At this moment playing so many games is starting to take its toll. I really can’t decide what to board and what to take out. As I want to play the 4 Pyrokenis, but also want to board in the throes package on the draw vs fast “combo” deck. I arguably maybe take too long and can’t really decide how to board.
I do not see how I can play both Throes/Tibalt + Pyrokenis and still be consistent with the deck, as messing with the amount of cascade spells is really dangerous. Maybe it’s the inexperience with the deck hitting here. But I cant remove to many red sources as well for the Pyro’s to be interactive in my hand.
I decide the following :
+4 Throes of Chaos
+2 Tibalt's Trickery
-1 Havenwood Battleground
-3 Aurora Phoenix
-2 Sweet-Gum Recluse
I mull twice, and see no early Throes. So I decide to keep a hand with enough lands and 2 action pieces for turn 3. Sam luckily plays a ponder turn, ends up playing a threat turn 2. I go off turn 3. Boarding Party Cascades into throes of chaos, sh*t! That’s a disaster a CT would have been way better. I hit tibalt’s but he counters it. I leave my boarding party behind to block, and I think hopefully I might still have another turn. But he invigorates into berserk and the trample infect dmg is enough to kill me.
Afterwards he shows me he still had another FoW back up. So hitting the Throes instead of a CT would have made no difference.
Ending:
It was a great day, I had a lot of fun playing the deck and lots of enthousiastic players at the tournament. It was a great day! The deck is consistent in the draws, I personally do not like decks that must mull aggressively. Of course as any combo deck it really has some weaker matchups. But I think with enough work maybe there is still equatiy to be gained there in the sideboard. My expectations are that this deck pick up speed really quickly and we will be seeing more results soon.
I am going to gather my thoughts on the deck my sideboard and card choices a bit more, before posting again.
Hopefully you all enjoyed reading about the tournament.
Mark
Very cool writeup, and very much appreciated.
This is an interesting choice, and may well be correct. I would like to get a better sense of risk vs. reward in a lot of these matchups, but Aluren seems like a pile of Interaction / Cantrips / Instant-Speed-Win-Conditions that has to be on the "play conservative" end, and if you didn't demonstrate them into a new card in hand or countermagic directly off the first demonstrate the only reason to consider continuing to demonstrate is if the output of the chain will be enough. Hearing that it was is a great.
While I think it is winnable (meaning not as horrendous as Oops), Infect seems pretty set as a bad matchup. They have a quick clock, they're usually packing surgical and flusterstorms, and we are bereft of pre-combo blockers so they're relatively free to load up on a quick Glistener Elf. I think the fact that Sam in particular is leading them off of Vines of Vastwood and onto Skrelv is a small silver lining because it means that Otawara is functional removal against them, but that's not good enough news to make it a good matchup.
I don't have the games against New Bant Infect under my belt to say anything with the confidence I would like, but I think I would forgo the Throes package in favor of Pyrokinesis in its entirety. Your first combo attempt / Pyro will be countered post-board, and if we're acknowledging we're still not winning until at least Turn 3 I like going into Turn 3 on the Resilient line off of agnostic Turn 2 Land Sequencing than going into Turn 3 on a second attempt to Throes off of the land sequencing that enabled a T2 Throes. Unless that was off of specifically Sandstone Needle you might stumble trying to reestablish red mana on Turn 3.
I think the best shot of winning against a reasonable post-board Infect hand is either blowing out their Tempo with Otawara or having them waste resources fending off a Pyrokinesis without needing to devote mana to it. This is naive reasoning though as I haven't played against infect since before Skrelv.
The deck was posted and mentioned on mtggoldfish as well. Also heard of some players buying the cards. Seems like you really started the an awesome deck here.
Last edited by ToasTer86; 04-06-2023 at 10:59 AM.
I think Alluren is a 50/50 matchup, the reasoning behind this is following. Our CT's can hit insane targets for our opponents as well. Alluren, Baleful & Coatl are good hits for our opponent. Each deathtouch flyer eliminates one of our attacking targets. They can have instant speed removal in Swords vs the Wanderer. But alluren is slower but more resillient. I think the matchup is a really good one to practice explosiveness vs. conservative plays.This is an interesting choice, and may well be correct. I would like to get a better sense of risk vs. reward in a lot of these matchups, but Aluren seems like a pile of Interaction / Cantrips / Instant-Speed-Win-Conditions that has to be on the "play conservative" end, and if you didn't demonstrate them into a new card in hand or countermagic directly off the first demonstrate the only reason to consider continuing to demonstrate is if the output of the chain will be enough. Hearing that it was is a great.
Infect seems like a bad matchup. I am wondering how good the Throes+Trickery package is vs Infect. Especially on the draw it gives us a chance to combo before our opponent kills us. The downside is that it makes our combo more susceptible to counter magic, which Infect has mutiples: FoW's, FoN's, Daze, Stifle. On the play I think we should forego the Throes package.While I think it is winnable (meaning not as horrendous as Oops), Infect seems pretty set as a bad matchup. They have a quick clock, they're usually packing surgical and flusterstorms, and we are bereft of pre-combo blockers so they're relatively free to load up on a quick Glistener Elf. I think the fact that Sam in particular is leading them off of Vines of Vastwood and onto Skrelv is a small silver lining because it means that Otawara is functional removal against them, but that's not good enough news to make it a good matchup.
I don't have the games against New Bant Infect under my belt to say anything with the confidence I would like, but I think I would forgo the Throes package in favor of Pyrokinesis in its entirety. Your first combo attempt / Pyro will be countered post-board, and if we're acknowledging we're still not winning until at least Turn 3 I like going into Turn 3 on the Resilient line off of agnostic Turn 2 Land Sequencing than going into Turn 3 on a second attempt to Throes off of the land sequencing that enabled a T2 Throes. Unless that was off of specifically Sandstone Needle you might stumble trying to reestablish red mana on Turn 3.
I think the best shot of winning against a reasonable post-board Infect hand is either blowing out their Tempo with Otawara or having them waste resources fending off a Pyrokinesis without needing to devote mana to it. This is naive reasoning though as I haven't played against infect since before Skrelv.
I've read Sam Dams infect report and seen how highly respected he is in the overal Infect world. He's not playing Vines anymore and using Skrelv as a way to protect his threats. This means Pyrokenis can be protected against. Otowara seems like our best chance, but realistically it does not come online till turn 3 often, unless we sequence our lands in effectively.
What do you think about: The sky turtle
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote