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Thread: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

  1. #281

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "combo"

    1. silkster: Forest, Acererak the Archlich, Memory Lapse, Aluren
    Nongoblin combo :( 0-6

    2. FourdogsinaHorseSuit: Words of Wilding, Words of Worship, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, SaltCrusted Steppe
    Squirrel smash! 6-0

    3. dte: Khalni Garden, Hangarback Walker, Mana Leak, Cabal Therapy
    Discard :( 0-6

    4. Asthereal: Cabal Therapy, Cathar Commando, Miscast, Young Wolf
    Commando :( 1-4

    5. Reeplcheep: Oko, Thief of Crowns, Imp’s Mischief, Grief, Malakir Rebirth
    Squirrel smash, then discard 3-3

    6. Symbi: Show and Tell, Memory Lapse, Progenitus, Island
    Goblin stare 2-2

    7. Wrath of Pie: Mistveil Plains, Razortide Bridge, Raise the Alarm, Delay
    Squirrel smash! 6-0

    8. Dooey: Piracy Charm, Isochron Scepter, Sol Ring, Selesnya Charm
    Squirrel smash! 6-0

    9. FTW: Forbidden Orchard, Mana Clash, Sudden Substitution, Cabal Therapy
    Nongoblin combo :( ??

    10. GoblinSmashmaster: Enthusiastic Mechanaut, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Chatterstorm
    That's me on Goblin combo

    Total: 24 points

  2. #282
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    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Symbi View Post
    The idea is that sudden substitution says I may choose a new target, but afaik there is no rule preventing me from just not reselecting a target, even if the original is illegal. In the twincast case the comprehensive rules (707.10c) explicitly state that this is legal.
    Huh... so the awesome combo doesn't actually win? Sad days, regardless of the extra points it gains me.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  3. #283

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    I would disagree. I would say this is a fun example of cool things we can do with our current rules.
    It is nonstandard though, and there is little advantage to using a nonstandard rule when we will eventually need more players and want to keep them around.

  4. #284

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Symbi View Post
    The idea is that sudden substitution says I may choose a new target, but afaik there is no rule preventing me from just not reselecting a target, even if the original is illegal. In the twincast case the comprehensive rules (707.10c) explicitly state that this is legal.
    115.7d If an effect allows a player to “choose new targets” for a spell or ability, the player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must be legal and must not cause any unchanged targets to become illegal.

  5. #285

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    My deck requires a lot of math so I've been trying to make a big effort post with all the (losing, drawing) premutations. But I've been checking in to correct/affirm the rest of y'all's math on it which is why I've been able to chime in but not give out full answers.

  6. #286
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    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Edit: Ninja'd by FourDogs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Symbi View Post
    The idea is that sudden substitution says I may choose a new target, but afaik there is no rule preventing me from just not reselecting a target, even if the original is illegal. In the twincast case the comprehensive rules (707.10c) explicitly state that this is legal.
    I was not convinced by a controller using "may" to make their spell fizzle, so I searched for a clearer ruling.

    From the Comprehensive Rules:
    115.7d If an effect allows a player to “choose new targets” for a spell or ability, the player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must be legal and must not cause any unchanged targets to become illegal.
    So the combo does not work. Opponent can fail to reselect targets. After exchange, "target opponent" becomes illegal. Since Mana Clash only has 1 target, it is countered.
    However I can still try to win with the 1/1 creature or use Sudden Sub to steal opponent's creature, so it is not automatic LL 0-6 for all matches.

    I should have just played Aluren + Cabal Therapy + Void Grafter instead. Should have scored roughly the same, since Aluren is a more compact turn 1 win. Got too cute wanting to play Sudden Sub.

    Sudden Sub combo still works with Pacts even if we change the randomness ruling, so I don't see how the deck affects the argument either way. However Summoner's Pact sure looks bad vs all those green-producing lands!

  7. #287

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Huh... so the awesome combo doesn't actually win? Sad days, regardless of the extra points it gains me.
    This is how I feel too. I see Wrath of Pie's point about not being overly confusing to attract and keep new players, but I would never have known which way was the default way.

    I'm also impressed that rule 707.10c is so close, though it talks about copying instead of changing control, but it must be the same.

  8. #288

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    7. Wrath of Pie: Mistveil Plains, Razortide Bridge, Raise the Alarm, Delay

    1. silkster: Forest, Acererak the Archlich, Memory Lapse, Aluren LL
    2. FourdogsinaHorseSuit: Words of Wilding, Words of Worship, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, SaltCrusted Steppe WL - Words of Wilding gets Delayed. Repeatedly. Only on the play, though.
    3. dte: Khalni Garden, Hangarback Walker, Mana Leak, Cabal Therapy LL
    4. Asthereal: Cabal Therapy, Cathar Commando, Miscast, Young Wolf WW
    5. Reeplcheep: Oko, Thief of Crowns, Imp’s Mischief, Grief, Malakir Rebirth LL
    6. Symbi: Show and Tell, Memory Lapse, Progenitus, Island LL
    8. Dooey: Piracy Charm, Isochron Scepter, Sol Ring, Selesnya Charm LL
    9. FTW: Forbidden Orchard, Mana Clash, Sudden Substitution, Cabal Therapy WW
    10. GoblinSmashmaster: Enthusiastic Mechanaut, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Chatterstorm WL - Razortide Bridge is slow again.

    6w = 18 points

    Seems I can't delay bad performances.

  9. #289

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    2. FourdogsinaHorseSuit: Words of Wilding, Words of Worship, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, SaltCrusted Steppe WL - Words of Wilding gets Delayed. Repeatedly. Only on the play,
    I'm not sure this is right, I think you win both

  10. #290
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    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I'm not sure this is right, I think you win both
    You always can resolve WoW OTP, only delayed 3 turns. From there, you create a 2/2 every turn, while WoP can create only 2 1/1 every other turn.
    WL is correct.

    OTD, WoP can infinitely delay your WoW and win.

  11. #291

  12. #292

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    You always can resolve WoW OTP, only delayed 3 turns. From there, you create a 2/2 every turn, while WoP can create only 2 1/1 every other turn.
    WL is correct.

    OTD, WoP can infinitely delay your WoW and win.
    If they ever cast delay on my Words of Worship they insta lose because I have enough mana to cast both spells in the same turn and Words of Wilding will resolve. Also I'm just now realizing the whole cycle is "WoW", which means I don't know if you meant words of worship or wilding but also did you think i meant words of war? Which I would have if there was a WR storage land. Instead I went Wilding/Worship.

    It's WL Because they Can't Delay the same spell twice on the draw but on the play they get a free turn every delay cycle in order to return Raise to the deck. That means once every 6 turns they get to make two extra 1/1, eventually overwhelming me.

  13. #293
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    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    I meant wilding, words of wordship has basically no text in all these MUs when with time the opponent army grows (either WoP or me).

    And vs me, I believe it is also WL.

  14. #294

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I meant wilding, words of wordship has basically no text in all these MUs when with time the opponent army grows (either WoP or me).

    And vs me, I believe it is also WL.
    You thinking the card has no text is exactly what makes this so complicated, because it means I can gain a bunch of life since you don't have to cast therapy a second time until you're ready

  15. #295
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    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    You thinking the card has no text is exactly what makes this so complicated, because it means I can gain a bunch of life since you don't have to cast therapy a second time until you're ready
    If you cast it first, you delay making bears, which is good for me, and I just grow walker bigger. If you try to make bears ASAP, I flashback therapy discarding it on T5, making you discard it. By then you have no counters nor mana remaining, and do not have the time to rebuy and cast it before dying.

  16. #296

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Sorry for not posting the results of my deck last week, work got busy suddenly and I completely forgot. I'll be too busy to participate for the next few weeks, but should be back after that.

  17. #297

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    If you cast it first, you delay making bears, which is good for me, and I just grow walker bigger. If you try to make bears ASAP, I flashback therapy discarding it on T5, making you discard it. By then you have no counters nor mana remaining, and do not have the time to rebuy and cast it before dying.
    In that line I win because I do have mana: I just don't pay.
    T1: You therapy me, make a 1/1 walker. My turn I play Steppe.
    T2: Walker to 2. Play Hall, Steppe to 1.
    T3: Walker to 3. I Hold.
    T4: Walker to 4 Your EOT I use the 1 starting W to top Words (UBRG). My turn I untap, cast Bears (UBR left). You go to leak it? Fine, Words Countered.
    T5: You attack me for 4 to 16, therapy sacrificing walker->Worship. My turn Steppe to 2.
    T6: You attack me to 12. I hold
    T7: Me to 8, your Eot remove both counters off steppe and top the Words O Worship. My turn cast The Card With No Text
    T8: Me to 4. My turn Me to 9. From here I go to infinite life and use that to build a nice cushion of life before taking a few turns off to charge my Steppe, top the Bears, make a bear and poke you 10 times.

  18. #298
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    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    In that line I win because I do have mana: I just don't pay.
    T1: You therapy me, make a 1/1 walker. My turn I play Steppe.
    T2: Walker to 2. Play Hall, Steppe to 1.
    T3: Walker to 3. I Hold.
    T4: Walker to 4 Your EOT I use the 1 starting W to top Words (UBRG). My turn I untap, cast Bears (UBR left). You go to leak it? Fine, Words Countered.
    T5: You attack me for 4 to 16, therapy sacrificing walker->Worship. My turn Steppe to 2.
    T6: You attack me to 12. I hold
    T7: Me to 8, your Eot remove both counters off steppe and top the Words O Worship. My turn cast The Card With No Text
    T8: Me to 4. My turn Me to 9. From here I go to infinite life and use that to build a nice cushion of life before taking a few turns off to charge my Steppe, top the Bears, make a bear and poke you 10 times.
    Not paying for leak make me just win at a higher life total, I just keep growing walker until you resolve words of windlings:
    T1: You therapy me, make a 1/1 walker. My turn I play Steppe.
    T2: Walker to 2. Play Hall, Steppe to 1.
    T3: Walker to 3. I Hold.
    T4: Walker to 4 Your EOT I use the 1 starting W to top Words (UBRG). My turn I untap, cast Bears (UBR left). You go to leak it? Fine, Words Countered.
    T5 Walker to 5. What are you doing? you can only put steppe on 2.
    T6 walker on 6. steppe on 3? without you cannot play windlings. If you chose to play words of worships, I just attack you for 6 a turn while you gain 5 and nothing else.

    And if you pay for leak, you lose the race.

  19. #299

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Not paying for leak make me just win at a higher life total, I just keep growing walker until you resolve words of windlings:
    T1: You therapy me, make a 1/1 walker. My turn I play Steppe.
    T2: Walker to 2. Play Hall, Steppe to 1.
    T3: Walker to 3. I Hold.
    T4: Walker to 4 Your EOT I use the 1 starting W to top Words (UBRG). My turn I untap, cast Bears (UBR left). You go to leak it? Fine, Words Countered.
    T5 Walker to 5. What are you doing? you can only put steppe on 2.
    T6 walker on 6. steppe on 3? without you cannot play windlings. If you chose to play words of worships, I just attack you for 6 a turn while you gain 5 and nothing else.

    And if you pay for leak, you lose the race.
    Seems better to pay for Leak, ignore Words of Worship and just make Bears earlier.

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