4CB - CEILING SEASON
Every round there will be a "ceiling deck", and all submissions must lose 0-6 to this deck. After round 1, the ceiling deck will be the lowest scoring deck of the previous round, which I will declare a few days after the decklists are posted. This will be locked in, so if scores are corrected, it won't change the ceiling deck. If results aren't yet full, I'll just make my best guess.
Legality: paper vintage, thus excluding Alchemy and other online-only cards.
Additional Bans: Unfinity, Shahrazad, dungeons.
We will play 9 rounds, getting round points each round, and in the end we'll take the sum of the top 7. This was approximately how we graded math quizzes in university and it saved so many headaches of people missing for this reason or that reason. I kinda think an entry or two might be found to be illegal after the fact, so this seems like a good safety net.
I'm sometimes really bad at making arbitrary choices, so we'll have a bit of a warm-up pre-round. For the pre-round, submit any deck. For this round only, the deck with the median score will be chosen as the ceiling deck for round 1. So just submit whatever you feel like. This is also a good opportunity for me to test out using google forms.
Ceiling Season Entry Form
Last edited by silkster; 05-01-2024 at 01:29 AM.
Banlist after Round 14, going into Round 15:
Abeyance
Academy Ruins
Acererak the Archlich
Agonizing Remorse
Aluren
An Offer You Can't Refuse
Ancient Tomb
Angel's Grace
Anointed Peacekeeper
Arcane Denial
Arcbound Ravager
Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
Assassin's Trophy
Autonomous Assembler
Autumn's Veil
Azorious Chancery
Balance
Barbed Shocker
Barren Glory
Bayou
Bazaar of Baghdad
Bitterblossom
Black Lotus
Blackmail
Blast Zone
Blooming Marsh
Boseiju, Who Endures
Brain Maggot
Brainstorm
Burning Inquiry
Cabal Therapy
Castigate
Cathar Commando
Cavern of Souls
Cenn's Tactician
Chain of Smog
Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor of the Forge
Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Channel
Chatterstorm
Chronomaton
City of Brass
City of Traitors
Conjurer's Bauble
Consign // Oblivion
Countersquall
Crashing Footfalls
Crystal Vein
Currency Converter
Dark Deal
Dark Depths
Decisive Denial
Den of the Bugbear
Den of the Bugbear
Devoted Druid
Dovin's Veto
Dromar's Charm
Dryad Arbor
Duress
Durkwood Baloth
Eater of Days
Eldrazi Temple
Electrodominance
Elite Spellbinder
Elixir of Immortality
Elvish Spirit Guide
Empty the Warrens
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Engineered Explosives
Enthusiastic Mechanaut
Ephemerate
Ertai Resurrected
Failure // Comply
Flash
Foil
Forbidden Orchard
Force of Despair
Force of Negation
Force of Will
Fountain of Cho
From Under the Floorboards
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Generous Gift
Ghost Quarter
Goblin Cannon
Greasefang Okiba Boss
Grief
Grim Monolith
Grist, the Hunger Tide
Hangarback Walker
Hive Mind
Imp’s Mischief
Induced Amnesia
Inquisition of Kozilek
Intervention Pact
Ionize
Izzet Boilerworks
Izzet Charm
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Karakas
Karn Liberated
Keldon Halberdier
Keldon Megaliths
Khalni Garden
Kitesail Freebooter
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Laboratory Maniac
Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Singularity
Lingering Souls
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lodestone Golem
Lotus Petal
Lupine Prototype
Malakir Rebirth
Mana Crypt
Mana Leak
Mana Short
Mana Vault
Mardu Charm
Mayor of Avabruck
Maze of Ith
Meddling Mage
Memory Lapse
Mental Misstep
Mercadian Bazaar
Mesmeric Fiend
Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
Mirrorshell Crab
Miscast
Misdirection
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Jet
Negate
Nether Spirit
Nils, Discipline Enforcer
Nimble Obstructionist
Noxious Revival
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Old-Growth Dryads
Orim's Chant
Otawara, Soaring City
Overmaster
Pact of Negation
Parhelion II
Path to Exile
Pendelhaven
Power Sink
Prismari Command
Progenitus
Prohibit
Pyroblast
Pyrokinesis
Quagnoth
Reanimate
Red Elemental Blast
Remand
Restore Balance
Retrofitter Foundry
Rushwood Grove
Savage Summoning
Scrubland
Selesnya Sanctuary
Show and Tell
Shrieking Affliction
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Silence
Simian Spirit Guide
Skrelv's Hive
Skyknight Vanguard
Snapback
Sneak Attack
Snow-Covered Island
Solitude
Spell Pierce
Spell Queller
Spellstutter Sprite
Strip Mine
Subtlety
Sudden Substitution
Summoner's Pact
Swan Song
Swarm Shambler
Swift Reconfiguration
Talisman of Unity
Tamiyo's Safekeeping
Teferi, Time Raveler
Thassa's Oracle
The Rack
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Thespian's Stage
Thought-Knot Seer
Thoughtseize
Through the Breach
Tibalt's Trickery
Tidehollow Sculler
Tundra
Turn the Earth
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Unmask
Unsubstantiate
Veil of Summer
Vendetta
Vex
Violent Outburst
Void Rend
Walking Ballista
Wheel and Deal
Wheel of Fate
Wheel of Fortune
White Plume Adventurer
Wistful Thinking
Witherbloom Apprentice
Young Wolf
Zirda, the Dawnwaker
Last edited by silkster; 02-20-2023 at 12:59 AM.
Preserved:
4 CARD BLIND - SEASON 14 -Vintage* Bannathon
The vote results were positive but without a clear winner, so I'm choosing the option that is less likely to have illegal submissions (after having personally failed 2/8 rounds last season).
You start the game with
*The list of legal cards is the cards that are legal in Vintage, except for cards in Unfinity. (From what I can tell, those require bringing sticker sheets, and I honestly don't know even exactly how they work in paper, so we're just not including them.) Each round, all cards from all decks scoring more than 3.0 round points will be banned, or a minimum of 3 decks if the scoring is too flatly distributed. A banned list will be carefully maintained in the second post of this thread and in the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Scoring (same as in previous seasons):
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 14 here:
Participation is entirely voluntary, and all you can win is bragging rights. We do this for fun.
If you missed a round, or want to enter mid-season, no problem. You can (re-)enter in any round. All you missed was a few potential season points.
And fun. You missed out on fun. Which is a lot worse than lagging behind on the score sheet.
HOW 4 CARD BLIND WORKS
All participants create a legal 4 card deck, and send it to the tournament organizer via PM before the deadline, but after the organizer has officially started the round.
After the deadline has expired, the tournament organizer posts all decks on the forum, and participants get to figure out who wins against who, and post results.
Every participant posts results for every opponent, so that everybody gets to cross-check their results and agree on the outcome. When in doubt, the community will help.
All participants play one game on the play and one on the draw against every other participant in that round. A win gets you 3 points, a draw is worth 1 point.
This means if you win on the play and score a draw when on the draw, you will score 3 + 1 = 4 points against that particular opponent.
The tournament organizer will add all scores and create a scoring table for the round, which will show who did the best in that particular round.
We will try to play a round every week. Every round the participants send in a new deck, hoping to out-smart the others.
Note: The tournament organizer (me) also plays along. Before each round starts, ho sends his own deck to himself via PM.
Afterwards, he posts on the forum that the round can start, and only then, other participants may send in their decks for the round.
We do this because otherwise, participants can accuse the organizer of creating a deck designed to beat what others have sent in.
Sending in your deck
As mentioned, you send your deck for the round via PM to the tournament organizer, which (for now) is me: Asthereal.
Please send your deck as follows (enter relevant season number, round number, username):
Subject: 4CB S14R01 deck
(4CB so I know what it's about / S14R01 means Season 14 Round 1, please adjust accordingly)
Message: Plains, Mother of Runes, Student of Warfare, Swords to Plowshares
(I prefer to receive the cards in card tags, and in this way of presenting: {cards}cardname1{/cards}, {cards}cardname2{/cards}, {cards}cardname3{/cards}, {cards}cardname4{/cards}, but with [] instead of {}.
If you send the deck this way, I can copy and paste super fast. That saves me a LOT of time!
Please only send it after I have announced the round has started, and before the deadline (obviously).
I also participate, so I have to send my own deck to myself before any other decks come in.
When a player submits a deck containing a banned card
When a player sends an illegal deck, and it's not noticed by either the player or the tournament organizer before posting decks for the round, that the player gets to swap the illegal card(s) with (a) basic land(s) of their choice.
This way, if someone accidentally sends in a deck containing a banned card, at least they get to still play using the remaining cards.
If you do notice before decks are posted for the round, just send a new PM with a new deck containing only legal cards.
If the TO catches it in time, he/she will send a PM to the player, but the TO is not responsible for the legality of entries.
The games go as follows
- You start with all four cards from your deck in your opening hand, and play from there.
- You don't lose the game for having to draw a card when you can't (obviously), rest stays the same as in regular MtG, so if a card ends up in your library, you will draw it next draw step.
- Random effects always have the effect that is most favorable to the opponent.
- Every player always plays optimally. If anyone finds a better line, that line is played.
Example
John sends in this deck: Taiga, Kird Ape, Lightning Bolt, Raze
Sarah sends in this deck: Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Aftershock
This looks like John's in trouble, because the Heavyweights will crush him big time, but actually, John wins this 4 to 1 because Sarah's lands are too slow.
OTP: T1 John plays Taiga, Kird Ape, T1 Sarah plays Sandstone Needle. T2 John plays Raze and kills the Needle, after which he rides the Ape to victory.
OTD: T1 Sarah plays Needle, T1 John cannot allow her to add a City and cast the Heavyweights, so he just goes Taiga, Raze the Needle and it's a draw because no one can cast anything anymore.
If anyone finds better lines, they can be openly discussed on the forum, and in the end the score for the optimal play on both sides is the final score.
So if you're not a very experienced player, that's no problem. Others will help you find the optimal play. 4CB is all about deck building and adapting to trends in the "meta".
Bannings
We will use special banning lists for 4CB, because certain cards that seem boring end up completely breaking this format (best example is Burning Inquiry).
In the post below you will find the bannings for the formats we play.
Loops
4CB by its nature violates several ideas behind regular Magic. One of them is the idea that games should never get 'stuck'. In regular Magic you will eventually draw your library and lose, for instance.
In 4CB we lose that failsafe, and since we play with only four cards, we get stuck all the time, for instance if both players have a Greenbelt Rampager in play, and attacking becomes pointless.
Another way you can get stuck is if one player has an action they can perform every turn in order to prevent the opponent for doing anything, like tapping a land every turn with Rishadan Port.
Technically, this would fall under the ruling of a "loop". These can occur across turns, and the regular Magic rules say you can't eternally perform a loop containing a voluntary action. Instead you have to choose a number.
This doesn't fit with the main rule of 4CB that says every player always plays optimally. Because when you need to tap a land eternally to stop something from getting cast, there is no optimal number except infinite.
Getting stuck is part of 4CB, so we don't worry about it too much, but we can't ignore the loop rule completely, because otherwise a player would be able to activate Nomads en-Kor infinitely just to force a draw.
So we will be using the following rule:
If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a single turn, then an optimal number is determined for the loop to repeat, and after the loop has been repeated that number of times, it will stop.
If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely across multiple turns controlled by both players, that loop may continue indefinitely, even if that would lead to a draw.
Examples:
- Aimlessly activating Nomads en-Kor in order to force a draw is a loop containing a voluntary action that occurs during a single turn. This loop will not happen indefinitely.
Instead, an optimal amount is determined for the loop to occur, after which it will stop. And the optimal number, in this case, will be zero times, as there is no benefit to the game state in activating Nomads en-Kor on itself.
- If you have a land, enchanted with Squirrel Nest and an Earthcraft, you can create infinite tokens. This is also a loop containing a voluntary action that occurs during a single turn.
Here, again we would determine an optimal amount to perform the loop. Since the loop creates a token, which benefits the game state, in this case we decide the optimal number of tokens to create, and create that amount of tokens, but no more. Say the opponent has one blocker and one removal spell, and he is at 20 life. We would create 22 tokens: 1 will die to removal, 1 will get blocked, and 20 will do damage to the opponent and kill him.
- If one player has a Stormscape Apprentice in play, with mana to activate it, and the other player has a Rotting Regisaur in play, eternally tapping the Regisaur in order to not die to it would be a loop across multiple turns.
This loop is allowed in 4CB and will lead to a draw (unless there are other cards that can influence this loop, or otherwise change the outcome of the game).
- If one player is able to take infinite turns through taking actions, that does not move the game forward and so that player must make a choose a finite number of turns to take before ending the loop.
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Last edited by silkster; 04-30-2024 at 05:47 PM.
Me: OK brain, this time, we need to build decks that can win.
Brain: Door to Nothingness
Me: No, like, they have to be good at winning. Winning without losing.
Brain: Something with Lim-Dul's Hex.
Me: Brain, please.
Brain: What? It could be good if you build it right. And if they run black mana. If they DON'T run black mana. We can lose. Win.
Me: What about using cards that are good? Laboratory Maniac?
Brain: I can get it into play as late as Turn 14. Early. As early as turn 14. Turn 10? You want turn 10? As late as turn 10, but you take 10 damage from your lands.
Me: Brain. No damage from our lands. Play cards that are good.
Brain: Yes. As early as turn 10, and we'll give everyone extra mana. No extra mana. But we'll use Hypergenesis to help opponents play their bombs. Helping is good. Helping is bad. Disruption is good. Force of Will is disruption. Sand Silos, five storage counters, Force of Will. Bam.
Me: Look, stop doing everything the backwards way. Just run Force of Will with other blue cards.
Brain: How's this: Force of Will. Misdirection.
Me: And?
Brain: Helix Pinnacle. And Veldt. No, Forest. Using good cards. Helix Pinnacle is good. It was banned last season.
Me: Forget Helix Pinnacle. Just give me a powerful effect that WUBRG mana will help me use.
Brain: Door to Nothingness
This is an excellent internal monologue.Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise
You want the modern wording, which is like this:You start each game with
You start the game with
I request an addition of bans for DD in every matchup, we could call it the Asthereal Memorial Award.*The list of legal cards is the cards that are legal in Vintage, except for cards in Unfinity. (From what I can tell, those require bringing sticker sheets, and I honestly don't know even exactly how they work in paper, so we're just not including them.) Each round, all cards from all decks scoring more than 3.0 round points will be banned, or a minimum of 3 decks if the scoring is too flatly distributed. A banned list will be carefully maintained in the second post of this thread and in the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
When can I start submitting?
Looking forward to a different kind of degenerate than 3cb/4cb where you have to bring your mana :)
I'm excited to play. Thanks for organizing it silkster!
Is there a starting banlist, or do we just start with Vintage B&R and then have a Bannathon as we go? I can't even start thinking about this without seeing what degeneracy is banned and what degeneracy is allowed.
I love the internal monologue. Also, I was really excited to play Lim-dûl's Hex too. Sadly, that was about when 4x Wastes entered the picture, though I do think that was for the best.
Our starting ban list is the vintage been list, so mostly dexterity and ante cards and conspiracies. All degeneracy that works is allowed. Lotus, Ball Lighting, Blood Lust, Berserk is allowed.
If the suggestion is that any deck that goes DD in every single matchup also gets banned, then I'm game. I love banning cards!
I still need to make my deck, but I have work now. I'm planning for later tonight, maybe in 7 or 8 hours.
lets gooooooooooooooo
ROUND 1 OF SEASON 14: WUBRG has started.
I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 1, and for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is 29a651a7bc25f27674437fe83b0540fdcdbd345f1b0dc9ca830af574d786d65d.
DEADLINE: Tuesday October 25th at 1:00pm Eastern Daylight Time (GMT-4).
PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Black Lotus, Ball Lightning, Bloodlust, Berserk.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S14R01 in the topic.
Usually you should keep an eye on the banned list, found in the second post and in the spreadsheet, but it's currently empty. Remember that the card pool is Vintage minus Unfinity.
After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.
Happy deckbuilding!
It's an inside joke because Asthereal wanted to give bonus points for that result and I argued repeatedly it was a bad idea. (It's still a bad idea, so this is the compromise.)
This brings up an interesting philosophical question: do we actually submit decks? (Comp rules says that the deck becomes a library, which we don't do, so I find that deck is a misleading term and prefer the more descriptive term hand.)I still need to make my deck, but I have work now. I'm planning for later tonight, maybe in 7 or 8 hours.
Welp, it took less than 18 hours into the first round for the thing I was fearing to happen: I realized that one of my card choices was really dumb, and the whole deck probably could have been much better. Oh well. I haven't even looked at the submitted lists yet, which brings me to my next point which is that I've already received six lists! Woohoo! I had been thinking that I should review them quickly for legality, but then I remembered that that likely isn't an issue unless someone is trying play Chaos Orb or Blacker Lotus.
I thought that we submitted decks and that you draw an opening hand from that, although one might wrongly infer from this that mulligans are possible. Not too long ago, someone was suggesting a variant where your cards all start in your deck and you draw them one at a time. It makes Thoughtseize look embarrassing, but probably breaks Vision Charm.
I also might have thought of them of decks because of all the MindMaster I've played.
Yes but how did my deck do?
That would easily trigger miracles, which would make them relevant in this format without having to use Brainstorm.
The cards simply start in hand. Easiest way to avoid random corner cases like this. The bigger question is whether or not deck construction applies in this case, given that what we do is more hand construction (so Cryptic Spires doesn't function, for example.)
I'm pretty sure drawing your opening hand doesn't trigger a miracle or players would be pitching spirit guides to put lava axes on the stack before the game starts
It doesn't, but Wrath was talking about the hypothetical situation where you could mulligan to start the game. It would also enable Shelldock Isle and protect against discard, and possibly do a few other things.
I've looked at the submitted decks and I can confirm that they each have four cards and that none of those cards are Chaos Orb or Blacker Lotus.
Oh no I submitted the wrong deck
Only by mere technicalities does pre-game miracle not work: Miracle requires the card be drawn during a turn.
Not needing LED for Shelldock is a huge upgrade though and would easily be relevant.
Still almost 26 hours to go, and I already have 11 entries, including my own! I will still wait for the deadline, of course. Hopefully a few others join in.
I should be able to post right at the deadline even with a shopping trip after my morning outing, so you can expect to see lists posted right around the official deadline.
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