4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "combo"

1. silkster: Forest, Acererak the Archlich, Memory Lapse, Aluren
Nongoblin combo :( 0-6

2. FourdogsinaHorseSuit: Words of Wilding, Words of Worship, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, SaltCrusted Steppe
Squirrel smash! 6-0

3. dte: Khalni Garden, Hangarback Walker, Mana Leak, Cabal Therapy
Discard :( 0-6

4. Asthereal: Cabal Therapy, Cathar Commando, Miscast, Young Wolf
Commando :( 1-4

5. Reeplcheep: Oko, Thief of Crowns, Imp’s Mischief, Grief, Malakir Rebirth
Squirrel smash, then discard 3-3

6. Symbi: Show and Tell, Memory Lapse, Progenitus, Island
Goblin stare 2-2

7. Wrath of Pie: Mistveil Plains, Razortide Bridge, Raise the Alarm, Delay
Squirrel smash! 6-0

8. Dooey: Piracy Charm, Isochron Scepter, Sol Ring, Selesnya Charm
Squirrel smash! 6-0

9. FTW: Forbidden Orchard, Mana Clash, Sudden Substitution, Cabal Therapy
Nongoblin combo :( ??

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Enthusiastic Mechanaut, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Chatterstorm
That's me on Goblin combo

Total: 24 points

[Asthereal]

The idea is that sudden substitution says I may choose a new target, but afaik there is no rule preventing me from just not reselecting a target, even if the original is illegal. In the twincast case the comprehensive rules (707.10c) explicitly state that this is legal.

Huh... so the awesome combo doesn't actually win? Sad days, regardless of the extra points it gains me.

[Wrath of Pie]

I would disagree. I would say this is a fun example of cool things we can do with our current rules.

It is nonstandard though, and there is little advantage to using a nonstandard rule when we will eventually need more players and want to keep them around.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The idea is that sudden substitution says I may choose a new target, but afaik there is no rule preventing me from just not reselecting a target, even if the original is illegal. In the twincast case the comprehensive rules (707.10c) explicitly state that this is legal.

115.7d If an effect allows a player to “choose new targets” for a spell or ability, the player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must be legal and must not cause any unchanged targets to become illegal.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

My deck requires a lot of math so I've been trying to make a big effort post with all the (losing, drawing) premutations. But I've been checking in to correct/affirm the rest of y'all's math on it which is why I've been able to chime in but not give out full answers.

[FTW]

Edit: Ninja'd by FourDogs.

The idea is that sudden substitution says I may choose a new target, but afaik there is no rule preventing me from just not reselecting a target, even if the original is illegal. In the twincast case the comprehensive rules (707.10c) explicitly state that this is legal.

I was not convinced by a controller using "may" to make their spell fizzle, so I searched for a clearer ruling.

From the Comprehensive Rules:

115.7d If an effect allows a player to “choose new targets” for a spell or ability, the player may leave any number of the targets unchanged, even if those targets would be illegal. If the player chooses to change some or all of the targets, the new targets must be legal and must not cause any unchanged targets to become illegal.

So the combo does not work. Opponent can fail to reselect targets. After exchange, "target opponent" becomes illegal. Since Mana Clash only has 1 target, it is countered.
However I can still try to win with the 1/1 creature or use Sudden Sub to steal opponent's creature, so it is not automatic LL 0-6 for all matches.

I should have just played Aluren + Cabal Therapy + Void Grafter instead. Should have scored roughly the same, since Aluren is a more compact turn 1 win. Got too cute wanting to play Sudden Sub.

Sudden Sub combo still works with Pacts even if we change the randomness ruling, so I don't see how the deck affects the argument either way. However Summoner's Pact sure looks bad vs all those green-producing lands!

[silkster]

Huh... so the awesome combo doesn't actually win? Sad days, regardless of the extra points it gains me.

This is how I feel too. I see Wrath of Pie's point about not being overly confusing to attract and keep new players, but I would never have known which way was the default way.

I'm also impressed that rule 707.10c is so close, though it talks about copying instead of changing control, but it must be the same.

[Wrath of Pie]

7. Wrath of Pie: Mistveil Plains, Razortide Bridge, Raise the Alarm, Delay

1. silkster: Forest, Acererak the Archlich, Memory Lapse, Aluren LL
2. FourdogsinaHorseSuit: Words of Wilding, Words of Worship, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, SaltCrusted Steppe WL - Words of Wilding gets Delayed. Repeatedly. Only on the play, though.
3. dte: Khalni Garden, Hangarback Walker, Mana Leak, Cabal Therapy LL
4. Asthereal: Cabal Therapy, Cathar Commando, Miscast, Young Wolf WW
5. Reeplcheep: Oko, Thief of Crowns, Imp’s Mischief, Grief, Malakir Rebirth LL
6. Symbi: Show and Tell, Memory Lapse, Progenitus, Island LL
8. Dooey: Piracy Charm, Isochron Scepter, Sol Ring, Selesnya Charm LL
9. FTW: Forbidden Orchard, Mana Clash, Sudden Substitution, Cabal Therapy WW
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Enthusiastic Mechanaut, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Chatterstorm WL - Razortide Bridge is slow again.

6w = 18 points

Seems I can't delay bad performances.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

2. FourdogsinaHorseSuit: Words of Wilding, Words of Worship, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, SaltCrusted Steppe WL - Words of Wilding gets Delayed. Repeatedly. Only on the play,

I'm not sure this is right, I think you win both

[dte]

I'm not sure this is right, I think you win both

You always can resolve WoW OTP, only delayed 3 turns. From there, you create a 2/2 every turn, while WoP can create only 2 1/1 every other turn.
WL is correct.

OTD, WoP can infinitely delay your WoW and win.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

1. silkster: Forest, Acererak the Archlich, Memory Lapse, Aluren
LL
2. FourdogsinaHorseSuit: Words of Wilding, Words of Worship, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, SaltCrusted Steppe
LL
3. dte: Khalni Garden, Hangarback Walker, Mana Leak, Cabal Therapy
... I'm still doing the math
4. Asthereal: Cabal Therapy, Cathar Commando, Miscast, Young Wolf
WL
5. Reeplcheep: Oko, Thief of Crowns, Imp’s Mischief, Grief, Malakir Rebirth
WL
6. Symbi: Show and Tell, Memory Lapse, Progenitus, Island
LL
7. Wrath of Pie: Mistveil Plains, Razortide Bridge, Raise the Alarm, Delay
WL
8. Dooey: Piracy Charm, Isochron Scepter, Sol Ring, Selesnya Charm
LL
9. FTW: Forbidden Orchard, Mana Clash, Sudden Substitution, Cabal Therapy
WW :(
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Enthusiastic Mechanaut, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Chatterstorm
LL

15 plus whatever happens in DTE

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You always can resolve WoW OTP, only delayed 3 turns. From there, you create a 2/2 every turn, while WoP can create only 2 1/1 every other turn.
WL is correct.

OTD, WoP can infinitely delay your WoW and win.

If they ever cast delay on my Words of Worship they insta lose because I have enough mana to cast both spells in the same turn and Words of Wilding will resolve. Also I'm just now realizing the whole cycle is "WoW", which means I don't know if you meant words of worship or wilding but also did you think i meant words of war? Which I would have if there was a WR storage land. Instead I went Wilding/Worship.

It's WL Because they Can't Delay the same spell twice on the draw but on the play they get a free turn every delay cycle in order to return Raise to the deck. That means once every 6 turns they get to make two extra 1/1, eventually overwhelming me.

[dte]

I meant wilding, words of wordship has basically no text in all these MUs when with time the opponent army grows (either WoP or me).

And vs me, I believe it is also WL.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I meant wilding, words of wordship has basically no text in all these MUs when with time the opponent army grows (either WoP or me).

And vs me, I believe it is also WL.

You thinking the card has no text is exactly what makes this so complicated, because it means I can gain a bunch of life since you don't have to cast therapy a second time until you're ready

[dte]

You thinking the card has no text is exactly what makes this so complicated, because it means I can gain a bunch of life since you don't have to cast therapy a second time until you're ready

If you cast it first, you delay making bears, which is good for me, and I just grow walker bigger. If you try to make bears ASAP, I flashback therapy discarding it on T5, making you discard it. By then you have no counters nor mana remaining, and do not have the time to rebuy and cast it before dying.

[RoosterCocoa]

Sorry for not posting the results of my deck last week, work got busy suddenly and I completely forgot. I'll be too busy to participate for the next few weeks, but should be back after that.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If you cast it first, you delay making bears, which is good for me, and I just grow walker bigger. If you try to make bears ASAP, I flashback therapy discarding it on T5, making you discard it. By then you have no counters nor mana remaining, and do not have the time to rebuy and cast it before dying.

In that line I win because I do have mana: I just don't pay.
T1: You therapy me, make a 1/1 walker. My turn I play Steppe.
T2: Walker to 2. Play Hall, Steppe to 1.
T3: Walker to 3. I Hold.
T4: Walker to 4 Your EOT I use the 1 starting W to top Words (UBRG). My turn I untap, cast Bears (UBR left). You go to leak it? Fine, Words Countered.
T5: You attack me for 4 to 16, therapy sacrificing walker->Worship. My turn Steppe to 2.
T6: You attack me to 12. I hold
T7: Me to 8, your Eot remove both counters off steppe and top the Words O Worship. My turn cast The Card With No Text
T8: Me to 4. My turn Me to 9. From here I go to infinite life and use that to build a nice cushion of life before taking a few turns off to charge my Steppe, top the Bears, make a bear and poke you 10 times.

[dte]

In that line I win because I do have mana: I just don't pay.
T1: You therapy me, make a 1/1 walker. My turn I play Steppe.
T2: Walker to 2. Play Hall, Steppe to 1.
T3: Walker to 3. I Hold.
T4: Walker to 4 Your EOT I use the 1 starting W to top Words (UBRG). My turn I untap, cast Bears (UBR left). You go to leak it? Fine, Words Countered.
T5: You attack me for 4 to 16, therapy sacrificing walker->Worship. My turn Steppe to 2.
T6: You attack me to 12. I hold
T7: Me to 8, your Eot remove both counters off steppe and top the Words O Worship. My turn cast The Card With No Text
T8: Me to 4. My turn Me to 9. From here I go to infinite life and use that to build a nice cushion of life before taking a few turns off to charge my Steppe, top the Bears, make a bear and poke you 10 times.

Not paying for leak make me just win at a higher life total, I just keep growing walker until you resolve words of windlings:
T1: You therapy me, make a 1/1 walker. My turn I play Steppe.
T2: Walker to 2. Play Hall, Steppe to 1.
T3: Walker to 3. I Hold.
T4: Walker to 4 Your EOT I use the 1 starting W to top Words (UBRG). My turn I untap, cast Bears (UBR left). You go to leak it? Fine, Words Countered.
T5 Walker to 5. What are you doing? you can only put steppe on 2.
T6 walker on 6. steppe on 3? without you cannot play windlings. If you chose to play words of worships, I just attack you for 6 a turn while you gain 5 and nothing else.

And if you pay for leak, you lose the race.

[Wrath of Pie]

Not paying for leak make me just win at a higher life total, I just keep growing walker until you resolve words of windlings:
T1: You therapy me, make a 1/1 walker. My turn I play Steppe.
T2: Walker to 2. Play Hall, Steppe to 1.
T3: Walker to 3. I Hold.
T4: Walker to 4 Your EOT I use the 1 starting W to top Words (UBRG). My turn I untap, cast Bears (UBR left). You go to leak it? Fine, Words Countered.
T5 Walker to 5. What are you doing? you can only put steppe on 2.
T6 walker on 6. steppe on 3? without you cannot play windlings. If you chose to play words of worships, I just attack you for 6 a turn while you gain 5 and nothing else.

And if you pay for leak, you lose the race.

Seems better to pay for Leak, ignore Words of Worship and just make Bears earlier.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Not paying for leak make me just win at a higher life total,

It's not worth it for me to keep arguing this.