Page 1 of 27 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 530

Thread: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

  1. #1

    4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    4 CARD BLIND - SEASON 14 - Vintage* Bannathon

    The vote results were positive but without a clear winner, so I'm choosing the option that is less likely to have illegal submissions (after having personally failed 2/8 rounds last season).

    You start the game with , and unspent mana from this isn't lost as steps and phases end. Other unspent mana is lost normally. It can be emptied through effects like that of Mana Short. Other unspent mana is lost normally.

    *The list of legal cards is the cards that are legal in Vintage, except for cards in Unfinity. (From what I can tell, those require bringing sticker sheets, and I honestly don't know even exactly how they work in paper, so we're just not including them.) Each round, all cards from all decks scoring more than 3.0 round points will be banned, or a minimum of 3 decks if the scoring is too flatly distributed. A banned list will be carefully maintained in the second post of this thread and in the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Scoring (same as in previous seasons):
    All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
    The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
    You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 14 here:

    Participation is entirely voluntary, and all you can win is bragging rights. We do this for fun.
    If you missed a round, or want to enter mid-season, no problem. You can (re-)enter in any round. All you missed was a few potential season points.
    And fun. You missed out on fun. Which is a lot worse than lagging behind on the score sheet.


    HOW 4 CARD BLIND WORKS

    All participants create a legal 4 card deck, and send it to the tournament organizer via PM before the deadline, but after the organizer has officially started the round.
    After the deadline has expired, the tournament organizer posts all decks on the forum, and participants get to figure out who wins against who, and post results.
    Every participant posts results for every opponent, so that everybody gets to cross-check their results and agree on the outcome. When in doubt, the community will help.
    All participants play one game on the play and one on the draw against every other participant in that round. A win gets you 3 points, a draw is worth 1 point.
    This means if you win on the play and score a draw when on the draw, you will score 3 + 1 = 4 points against that particular opponent.
    The tournament organizer will add all scores and create a scoring table for the round, which will show who did the best in that particular round.
    We will try to play a round every week. Every round the participants send in a new deck, hoping to out-smart the others.

    Note: The tournament organizer (me) also plays along. Before each round starts, ho sends his own deck to himself via PM.
    Afterwards, he posts on the forum that the round can start, and only then, other participants may send in their decks for the round.
    We do this because otherwise, participants can accuse the organizer of creating a deck designed to beat what others have sent in.

    Sending in your deck
    As mentioned, you send your deck for the round via PM to the tournament organizer, which (for now) is me: Asthereal.
    Please send your deck as follows (enter relevant season number, round number, username):

    Subject: 4CB S14R01 deck
    (4CB so I know what it's about / S14R01 means Season 14 Round 1, please adjust accordingly)
    Message: Plains, Mother of Runes, Student of Warfare, Swords to Plowshares
    (I prefer to receive the cards in card tags, and in this way of presenting: {cards}cardname1{/cards}, {cards}cardname2{/cards}, {cards}cardname3{/cards}, {cards}cardname4{/cards}, but with [] instead of {}.
    If you send the deck this way, I can copy and paste super fast. That saves me a LOT of time!

    Please only send it after I have announced the round has started, and before the deadline (obviously).
    I also participate, so I have to send my own deck to myself before any other decks come in.

    When a player submits a deck containing a banned card
    When a player sends an illegal deck, and it's not noticed by either the player or the tournament organizer before posting decks for the round, that the player gets to swap the illegal card(s) with (a) basic land(s) of their choice.
    This way, if someone accidentally sends in a deck containing a banned card, at least they get to still play using the remaining cards.
    If you do notice before decks are posted for the round, just send a new PM with a new deck containing only legal cards.
    If the TO catches it in time, he/she will send a PM to the player, but the TO is not responsible for the legality of entries.

    The games go as follows
    - You start with all four cards from your deck in your opening hand, and play from there.
    - You don't lose the game for having to draw a card when you can't (obviously), rest stays the same as in regular MtG, so if a card ends up in your library, you will draw it next draw step.
    - Random effects always have the effect that is most favorable to the opponent.
    - Every player always plays optimally. If anyone finds a better line, that line is played.

    Example
    John sends in this deck: Taiga, Kird Ape, Lightning Bolt, Raze
    Sarah sends in this deck: Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Aftershock
    This looks like John's in trouble, because the Heavyweights will crush him big time, but actually, John wins this 4 to 1 because Sarah's lands are too slow.
    OTP: T1 John plays Taiga, Kird Ape, T1 Sarah plays Sandstone Needle. T2 John plays Raze and kills the Needle, after which he rides the Ape to victory.
    OTD: T1 Sarah plays Needle, T1 John cannot allow her to add a City and cast the Heavyweights, so he just goes Taiga, Raze the Needle and it's a draw because no one can cast anything anymore.

    If anyone finds better lines, they can be openly discussed on the forum, and in the end the score for the optimal play on both sides is the final score.
    So if you're not a very experienced player, that's no problem. Others will help you find the optimal play. 4CB is all about deck building and adapting to trends in the "meta".

    Bannings
    We will use special banning lists for 4CB, because certain cards that seem boring end up completely breaking this format (best example is Burning Inquiry).
    In the post below you will find the bannings for the formats we play.

    Loops
    4CB by its nature violates several ideas behind regular Magic. One of them is the idea that games should never get 'stuck'. In regular Magic you will eventually draw your library and lose, for instance.
    In 4CB we lose that failsafe, and since we play with only four cards, we get stuck all the time, for instance if both players have a Greenbelt Rampager in play, and attacking becomes pointless.
    Another way you can get stuck is if one player has an action they can perform every turn in order to prevent the opponent for doing anything, like tapping a land every turn with Rishadan Port.
    Technically, this would fall under the ruling of a "loop". These can occur across turns, and the regular Magic rules say you can't eternally perform a loop containing a voluntary action. Instead you have to choose a number.
    This doesn't fit with the main rule of 4CB that says every player always plays optimally. Because when you need to tap a land eternally to stop something from getting cast, there is no optimal number except infinite.
    Getting stuck is part of 4CB, so we don't worry about it too much, but we can't ignore the loop rule completely, because otherwise a player would be able to activate Nomads en-Kor infinitely just to force a draw.
    So we will be using the following rule:

    If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a single turn, then an optimal number is determined for the loop to repeat, and after the loop has been repeated that number of times, it will stop.
    If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely across multiple turns controlled by both players, that loop may continue indefinitely, even if that would lead to a draw.

    Examples:
    - Aimlessly activating Nomads en-Kor in order to force a draw is a loop containing a voluntary action that occurs during a single turn. This loop will not happen indefinitely.
    Instead, an optimal amount is determined for the loop to occur, after which it will stop. And the optimal number, in this case, will be zero times, as there is no benefit to the game state in activating Nomads en-Kor on itself.
    - If you have a land, enchanted with Squirrel Nest and an Earthcraft, you can create infinite tokens. This is also a loop containing a voluntary action that occurs during a single turn.
    Here, again we would determine an optimal amount to perform the loop. Since the loop creates a token, which benefits the game state, in this case we decide the optimal number of tokens to create, and create that amount of tokens, but no more. Say the opponent has one blocker and one removal spell, and he is at 20 life. We would create 22 tokens: 1 will die to removal, 1 will get blocked, and 20 will do damage to the opponent and kill him.
    - If one player has a Stormscape Apprentice in play, with mana to activate it, and the other player has a Rotting Regisaur in play, eternally tapping the Regisaur in order to not die to it would be a loop across multiple turns.
    This loop is allowed in 4CB and will lead to a draw (unless there are other cards that can influence this loop, or otherwise change the outcome of the game).
    - If one player is able to take infinite turns through taking actions, that does not move the game forward and so that player must make a choose a finite number of turns to take before ending the loop.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by silkster; 11-17-2022 at 01:42 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Banlist after Round 14, going into Round 15:
    Abeyance
    Academy Ruins
    Acererak the Archlich
    Agonizing Remorse
    Aluren
    An Offer You Can't Refuse
    Ancient Tomb
    Angel's Grace
    Anointed Peacekeeper
    Arcane Denial
    Arcbound Ravager
    Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
    Assassin's Trophy
    Autonomous Assembler
    Autumn's Veil
    Azorious Chancery
    Balance
    Barbed Shocker
    Barren Glory
    Bayou
    Bazaar of Baghdad
    Bitterblossom
    Black Lotus
    Blackmail
    Blast Zone
    Blooming Marsh
    Boseiju, Who Endures
    Brain Maggot
    Brainstorm
    Burning Inquiry
    Cabal Therapy
    Castigate
    Cathar Commando
    Cavern of Souls
    Cenn's Tactician
    Chain of Smog
    Chancellor of the Annex
    Chancellor of the Forge
    Chandra, Awakened Inferno
    Channel
    Chatterstorm
    Chronomaton
    City of Brass
    City of Traitors
    Conjurer's Bauble
    Consign // Oblivion
    Countersquall
    Crashing Footfalls
    Crystal Vein
    Currency Converter
    Dark Deal
    Dark Depths
    Decisive Denial
    Den of the Bugbear
    Den of the Bugbear
    Devoted Druid
    Dovin's Veto
    Dromar's Charm
    Dryad Arbor
    Duress
    Durkwood Baloth
    Eater of Days
    Eldrazi Temple
    Electrodominance
    Elite Spellbinder
    Elixir of Immortality
    Elvish Spirit Guide
    Empty the Warrens
    Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    Engineered Explosives
    Enthusiastic Mechanaut
    Ephemerate
    Ertai Resurrected
    Failure // Comply
    Flash
    Foil
    Forbidden Orchard
    Force of Despair
    Force of Negation
    Force of Will
    Fountain of Cho
    From Under the Floorboards
    Geier Reach Sanitarium
    Generous Gift
    Ghost Quarter
    Goblin Cannon
    Greasefang Okiba Boss
    Grief
    Grim Monolith
    Grist, the Hunger Tide
    Hangarback Walker
    Hive Mind
    Impís Mischief
    Induced Amnesia
    Inquisition of Kozilek
    Intervention Pact
    Ionize
    Izzet Boilerworks
    Izzet Charm
    Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
    Karakas
    Karn Liberated
    Keldon Halberdier
    Keldon Megaliths
    Khalni Garden
    Kitesail Freebooter
    Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
    Laboratory Maniac
    Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
    Leyline of Anticipation
    Leyline of Lifeforce
    Leyline of Sanctity
    Leyline of Singularity
    Lingering Souls
    Lion's Eye Diamond
    Lodestone Golem
    Lotus Petal
    Lupine Prototype
    Malakir Rebirth
    Mana Crypt
    Mana Leak
    Mana Short
    Mana Vault
    Mardu Charm
    Mayor of Avabruck
    Maze of Ith
    Meddling Mage
    Memory Lapse
    Mental Misstep
    Mercadian Bazaar
    Mesmeric Fiend
    Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
    Mirrorshell Crab
    Miscast
    Misdirection
    Mishra's Workshop
    Mox Jet
    Negate
    Nether Spirit
    Nils, Discipline Enforcer
    Nimble Obstructionist
    Noxious Revival
    Oko, Thief of Crowns
    Old-Growth Dryads
    Orim's Chant
    Otawara, Soaring City
    Overmaster
    Pact of Negation
    Parhelion II
    Path to Exile
    Pendelhaven
    Power Sink
    Prismari Command
    Progenitus
    Prohibit
    Pyroblast
    Pyrokinesis
    Quagnoth
    Reanimate
    Red Elemental Blast
    Remand
    Restore Balance
    Retrofitter Foundry
    Rushwood Grove
    Savage Summoning
    Scrubland
    Selesnya Sanctuary
    Show and Tell
    Shrieking Affliction
    Sigarda, Host of Herons
    Silence
    Simian Spirit Guide
    Skrelv's Hive
    Skyknight Vanguard
    Snapback
    Sneak Attack
    Snow-Covered Island
    Solitude
    Spell Pierce
    Spell Queller
    Spellstutter Sprite
    Strip Mine
    Subtlety
    Sudden Substitution
    Summoner's Pact
    Swan Song
    Swarm Shambler
    Swift Reconfiguration
    Talisman of Unity
    Tamiyo's Safekeeping
    Teferi, Time Raveler
    Thassa's Oracle
    The Rack
    The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    Thespian's Stage
    Thought-Knot Seer
    Thoughtseize
    Through the Breach
    Tibalt's Trickery
    Tidehollow Sculler
    Tundra
    Turn the Earth
    Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
    Unmask
    Unsubstantiate
    Veil of Summer
    Vendetta
    Vex
    Violent Outburst
    Void Rend
    Walking Ballista
    Wheel and Deal
    Wheel of Fate
    Wheel of Fortune
    White Plume Adventurer
    Wistful Thinking
    Witherbloom Apprentice
    Young Wolf
    Zirda, the Dawnwaker
    Last edited by silkster; 02-20-2023 at 01:59 AM.

  3. #3

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Also reserved. :)

  4. #4

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Me: OK brain, this time, we need to build decks that can win.

    Brain: Door to Nothingness

    Me: No, like, they have to be good at winning. Winning without losing.

    Brain: Something with Lim-Dul's Hex.

    Me: Brain, please.

    Brain: What? It could be good if you build it right. And if they run black mana. If they DON'T run black mana. We can lose. Win.

    Me: What about using cards that are good? Laboratory Maniac?

    Brain: I can get it into play as late as Turn 14. Early. As early as turn 14. Turn 10? You want turn 10? As late as turn 10, but you take 10 damage from your lands.

    Me: Brain. No damage from our lands. Play cards that are good.

    Brain: Yes. As early as turn 10, and we'll give everyone extra mana. No extra mana. But we'll use Hypergenesis to help opponents play their bombs. Helping is good. Helping is bad. Disruption is good. Force of Will is disruption. Sand Silos, five storage counters, Force of Will. Bam.

    Me: Look, stop doing everything the backwards way. Just run Force of Will with other blue cards.

    Brain: How's this: Force of Will. Misdirection.

    Me: And?

    Brain: Helix Pinnacle. And Veldt. No, Forest. Using good cards. Helix Pinnacle is good. It was banned last season.

    Me: Forget Helix Pinnacle. Just give me a powerful effect that WUBRG mana will help me use.

    Brain: Door to Nothingness

  5. #5

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Me: OK brain, this time, we need to build decks that can win.

    Brain: Door to Nothingness

    Me: No, like, they have to be good at winning. Winning without losing.

    Brain: Something with Lim-Dul's Hex.

    Me: Brain, please.

    Brain: What? It could be good if you build it right. And if they run black mana. If they DON'T run black mana. We can lose. Win.

    Me: What about using cards that are good? Laboratory Maniac?

    Brain: I can get it into play as late as Turn 14. Early. As early as turn 14. Turn 10? You want turn 10? As late as turn 10, but you take 10 damage from your lands.

    Me: Brain. No damage from our lands. Play cards that are good.

    Brain: Yes. As early as turn 10, and we'll give everyone extra mana. No extra mana. But we'll use Hypergenesis to help opponents play their bombs. Helping is good. Helping is bad. Disruption is good. Force of Will is disruption. Sand Silos, five storage counters, Force of Will. Bam.

    Me: Look, stop doing everything the backwards way. Just run Force of Will with other blue cards.

    Brain: How's this: Force of Will. Misdirection.

    Me: And?

    Brain: Helix Pinnacle. And Veldt. No, Forest. Using good cards. Helix Pinnacle is good. It was banned last season.

    Me: Forget Helix Pinnacle. Just give me a powerful effect that WUBRG mana will help me use.

    Brain: Door to Nothingness
    This is an excellent internal monologue.

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    You start each game with in your mana pool, and this mana does not empty as steps and phases end. It can be emptied through effects like that of Mana Short, and other mana that is generated will empty normally.
    You want the modern wording, which is like this:

    You start the game with , and unspent mana from this isn't lost as steps and phases end. Other unspent mana is lost normally.

    *The list of legal cards is the cards that are legal in Vintage, except for cards in Unfinity. (From what I can tell, those require bringing sticker sheets, and I honestly don't know even exactly how they work in paper, so we're just not including them.) Each round, all cards from all decks scoring more than 3.0 round points will be banned, or a minimum of 3 decks if the scoring is too flatly distributed. A banned list will be carefully maintained in the second post of this thread and in the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    I request an addition of bans for DD in every matchup, we could call it the Asthereal Memorial Award.

  6. #6

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    When can I start submitting?

  7. #7

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Looking forward to a different kind of degenerate than 3cb/4cb where you have to bring your mana :)

  8. #8
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,560

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    I'm excited to play. Thanks for organizing it silkster!

    Is there a starting banlist, or do we just start with Vintage B&R and then have a Bannathon as we go? I can't even start thinking about this without seeing what degeneracy is banned and what degeneracy is allowed.

  9. #9

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    I love the internal monologue. Also, I was really excited to play Lim-dŻl's Hex too. Sadly, that was about when 4x Wastes entered the picture, though I do think that was for the best.

    Our starting ban list is the vintage been list, so mostly dexterity and ante cards and conspiracies. All degeneracy that works is allowed. Lotus, Ball Lighting, Blood Lust, Berserk is allowed.

    If the suggestion is that any deck that goes DD in every single matchup also gets banned, then I'm game. I love banning cards!

    I still need to make my deck, but I have work now. I'm planning for later tonight, maybe in 7 or 8 hours.

  10. #10

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    i'm planning for later tonight, maybe in 7 or 8 hours.
    lets gooooooooooooooo

  11. #11

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    ROUND 1 OF SEASON 14: WUBRG has started.

    I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 1, and for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is 29a651a7bc25f27674437fe83b0540fdcdbd345f1b0dc9ca830af574d786d65d.

    DEADLINE: Tuesday October 25th at 1:00pm Eastern Daylight Time (GMT-4).

    PLEASE NOTE:
    The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
    Please send your deck as follows: Black Lotus, Ball Lightning, Bloodlust, Berserk.
    So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S14R01 in the topic.

    Usually you should keep an eye on the banned list, found in the second post and in the spreadsheet, but it's currently empty. Remember that the card pool is Vintage minus Unfinity.

    After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
    If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

    Happy deckbuilding!

  12. #12

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    If the suggestion is that any deck that goes DD in every single matchup also gets banned, then I'm game. I love banning cards!
    It's an inside joke because Asthereal wanted to give bonus points for that result and I argued repeatedly it was a bad idea. (It's still a bad idea, so this is the compromise.)

    I still need to make my deck, but I have work now. I'm planning for later tonight, maybe in 7 or 8 hours.
    This brings up an interesting philosophical question: do we actually submit decks? (Comp rules says that the deck becomes a library, which we don't do, so I find that deck is a misleading term and prefer the more descriptive term hand.)

  13. #13

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Welp, it took less than 18 hours into the first round for the thing I was fearing to happen: I realized that one of my card choices was really dumb, and the whole deck probably could have been much better. Oh well. I haven't even looked at the submitted lists yet, which brings me to my next point which is that I've already received six lists! Woohoo! I had been thinking that I should review them quickly for legality, but then I remembered that that likely isn't an issue unless someone is trying play Chaos Orb or Blacker Lotus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    This brings up an interesting philosophical question: do we actually submit decks? (Comp rules says that the deck becomes a library, which we don't do, so I find that deck is a misleading term and prefer the more descriptive term hand.)
    I thought that we submitted decks and that you draw an opening hand from that, although one might wrongly infer from this that mulligans are possible. Not too long ago, someone was suggesting a variant where your cards all start in your deck and you draw them one at a time. It makes Thoughtseize look embarrassing, but probably breaks Vision Charm.

    I also might have thought of them of decks because of all the MindMaster I've played.

  14. #14

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Yes but how did my deck do?

  15. #15

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    I thought that we submitted decks and that you draw an opening hand from that, although one might wrongly infer from this that mulligans are possible. Not too long ago, someone was suggesting a variant where your cards all start in your deck and you draw them one at a time. It makes Thoughtseize look embarrassing, but probably breaks Vision Charm.

    I also might have thought of them of decks because of all the MindMaster I've played.
    That would easily trigger miracles, which would make them relevant in this format without having to use Brainstorm.

    The cards simply start in hand. Easiest way to avoid random corner cases like this. The bigger question is whether or not deck construction applies in this case, given that what we do is more hand construction (so Cryptic Spires doesn't function, for example.)

  16. #16

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    I'm pretty sure drawing your opening hand doesn't trigger a miracle or players would be pitching spirit guides to put lava axes on the stack before the game starts

  17. #17

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I'm pretty sure drawing your opening hand doesn't trigger a miracle or players would be pitching spirit guides to put lava axes on the stack before the game starts
    It doesn't, but Wrath was talking about the hypothetical situation where you could mulligan to start the game. It would also enable Shelldock Isle and protect against discard, and possibly do a few other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Yes but how did my deck do?
    I've looked at the submitted decks and I can confirm that they each have four cards and that none of those cards are Chaos Orb or Blacker Lotus.

  18. #18

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    Inone of those cards are Chaos Orb or Blacker Lotus.
    Oh no I submitted the wrong deck

  19. #19

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    It doesn't, but Wrath was talking about the hypothetical situation where you could mulligan to start the game. It would also enable Shelldock Isle and protect against discard, and possibly do a few other things.
    Only by mere technicalities does pre-game miracle not work: Miracle requires the card be drawn during a turn.

    Not needing LED for Shelldock is a huge upgrade though and would easily be relevant.

  20. #20

    Re: 4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

    Still almost 26 hours to go, and I already have 11 entries, including my own! I will still wait for the deadline, of course. Hopefully a few others join in.

    I should be able to post right at the deadline even with a shopping trip after my morning outing, so you can expect to see lists posted right around the official deadline.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)