4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

[dte]

It's not worth it for me to keep arguing this.

Maybe I phrased it wrong?

I tried to detail why not paying for leak does not work, with any line I tried (and I tried a few), as well as the one you proposed (there, it is because I can decide whether or not to flashback therapy after seeing if you chose to pay for leak or not). If you see a line where not paying works for you, don't hesitate to post it, we are all very often wrong in our MUs analysis, and this is not the simplest MU.

[Wrath of Pie]

Seriously, Words of Worship is irrelevant, it just leads to bigger Walker and the lifegain is easily outraced. (Also, you can only replace one draw a turn, and Bears can actually potentially win.)

dte also can make a 2/2 Walker to start with, opting to forgo Leak, so there is that to consider.

[dte]

dte also can make a 2/2 Walker to start with, opting to forgo Leak, so there is that to consider.

That I considered, but is a losing line for me, as 4 dogs can then cast words of wildlings at his T2 and already has a bear T3. I do need leak, I actually just b(e)arely win the race with leak.

[FTW]

Not paying for leak make me just win at a higher life total, I just keep growing walker until you resolve words of windlings:
T1: You therapy me, make a 1/1 walker. My turn I play Steppe.
T2: Walker to 2. Play Hall, Steppe to 1.
T3: Walker to 3. I Hold.
T4: Walker to 4 Your EOT I use the 1 starting W to top Words (UBRG). My turn I untap, cast Bears (UBR left). You go to leak it? Fine, Words Countered.
T5 Walker to 5. What are you doing? you can only put steppe on 2.
T6 walker on 6. steppe on 3? without you cannot play windlings. If you chose to play words of worships, I just attack you for 6 a turn while you gain 5 and nothing else.

And if you pay for leak, you lose the race.

dte vs 4Dogs
T1: Therapy taking Words of Wilding. 1/1 Walker. [dte=UR left] / Steppe. 1 charge [Dogs=WGBU left]
T2: 2/2 Walker / Hall. 2 charge.
T3: 3/3 Walker / EOT Put Words on top using W [Dogs=GUB left]
T4: 4/4 Walker / Words of Wilding using G [Dogs=UB left]. Mana Leak. Don't pay. Countered.
T5: 5/5 Walker / EOT Put Words on top, using U & 1 charge [Dogs=B left]
T6: 6/6 Walker / Words of Wilding using B & 1 charge [Dogs=no initial mana left]

Is that what FourDogs meant? If he doesn't pay for Mana Leak there is enough starting mana to speed up recasting Words of Wilding by turn 6. It's just a matter of manoevering the mana to meet the colored requirements. Otherwise he could pay for Leak.

I think there are more lines than you've covered above.

[Wrath of Pie]

That I considered, but is a losing line for me, as 4 dogs can then cast words of wildlings at his T2 and already has a bear T3. I do need leak, I actually just b(e)arely win the race with leak.

Flashback Therapy to make fliers via Hangarback's death trigger is how you do it, right?

[dte]

Flashback Therapy to make fliers via Hangarback's death trigger is how you do it, right?

Yes indeed. But if there is no threat, I can wait and grow walker.

I think there are more lines than you've covered above.

Do we agree that the fastest resolved windlings is the best shot for 4dogs?
If yes, 4dogs cannot cast windlings before T3 through cabal and leak, with no manas or counters remaining.
His T4, make a bear.
My T5: discard words of worship and get 5 flyers.
Now 4 dogs have 4 turns before dying. It is not enough to get worship back on time.
So he has:
T1, 2 bears, attack (plant dies)
T2, 3 bears, attack (16)
T3, 4 bears, attack (10).
T4, 5 bears, attack (2).
I win.

So, WL?
Or does anyone sees a beeter line for 4dogs?

[silkster]

Sorry for not posting the results of my deck last week, work got busy suddenly and I completely forgot. I'll be too busy to participate for the next few weeks, but should be back after that.

No worries. I had you covered! I even thought you won a match that was reported the other way, and it took a few times for it to be spelled out to me because the first few explanations were addressing slightly different lines.

I also just realized that I forgot to make the spreadsheet for this week. I've done that now, but this means that it has no entries yet, and I'm also quite busy this weekend, so I have decided to take a week off this week and make the next deadline on Tuesday the 13th. (I originally wrote this as "I think I will", but I realized that it's a bit confusing to say that and it's better to make a declarative statement, even though it's a bit intimidating because I don't want to be declaring what's what, which is why I lean toward the soft language that leaves it open for discussion, but it's probably not worth the discussion and should just be one way or the other.)

I plan to fill out whatever is left on the spreadsheet on Tuesday and announce the bans then too, but you can start predicting the bans as it gets filled out.

[Reeplcheep]

I agree with dooey on the pump line. WL

I agree that dogs can stabilize when I’m OTD. when I’m OTP I get 12 extra damage in (one attack from going first and another from wasting a draw to get the words of wilding back). This doesn’t give you enough time to stabilize. WL

If FTWs deck doesn’t function that puts me to 11W 7 L for 33/54

[Reeplcheep]

How do wishes, that wish eldrazi, and lessons work in 4CB?

[Asthereal]

How do wishes, that wish eldrazi, and lessons work in 4CB?

You don't have a sideboard, and own only the four cards in your posted deck, so they do nothing, typically.
(You used to be able to "remove from the game" a card, and then Wish for it, but that no longer works since the introduction of the "exiling" mechanic.)

[Wrath of Pie]

You don't have a sideboard, and own only the four cards in your posted deck, so they do nothing, typically.
(You used to be able to "remove from the game" a card, and then Wish for it, but that no longer works since the introduction of the "exiling" mechanic.)

This is also a standard rule for the sake of simplicity.

[Asthereal]

I'm not sure what the deadline will be for the next round, but shall we take a bit of extra time?
It helps if all timezones have at least 24 hours to send in their deck.

[dte]

I'm not sure what the deadline will be for the next round, but shall we take a bit of extra time?
It helps if all timezones have at least 24 hours to send in their deck.

I have decided to take a week off this week and make the next deadline on Tuesday the 13th.

[Asthereal]

I missed that message. Thanks, that's definitely enough.

[Wrath of Pie]

I missed that message. Thanks, that's definitely enough.

Gives you time to cheer on the Netherlands at the World Cup.

[Asthereal]

Gives you time to cheer on the Netherlands at the World Cup.

Actually I'm at a festival this Friday, so I'll probably miss most of it. Not that we're likely to win against Argentina though.

[silkster]

9. FTW: Forbidden Orchard, Mana Clash, Sudden Substitution, Cabal Therapy

10. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP Therapy naming Bauble. You can still cast Goblin and make 2 Squirrels, but then I Sudden Sub to steal the flying 2/2 and hold off your 3 1/1s. OTD I lose to 10000 squirrels. DL 1-4

What if Smashmaster just makes a single 1/1 and tries to beat you with it, only playing the flying goblin after you've used Sudden Sub?

7. Wrath of Pie: Mistveil Plains, Razortide Bridge, Raise the Alarm, Delay

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Enthusiastic Mechanaut, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Chatterstorm WL - Razortide Bridge is slow again.

Smashmaster says WW but doesn't explain. I haven't looked at the Delay math too closely, but I think you have to delay the flyer, and then you'll be facing 4 squirrels from Mechanaut, Delay, Bauble, and Chatterstorm itself, and I think you have to spend your mana rebuying and recasting Delay.

5. Reeplcheep: Oko, Thief of Crowns, Imp’s Mischief, Grief, Malakir Rebirth

2. FourdogsinaHorseSuit: Words of Wilding, Words of Worship, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, SaltCrusted Steppe
You have more value but a bunch of 2/2s match poorly into 3/2 menace and 3/3s. Words of Worship is pretty bad against oko. OTP I strip both your cards and it takes you too long to rebuild. OTD I believe I outpace your 2/2s but I’m not sure.

WW 6-0

8. Dooey: Piracy Charm, Isochron Scepter, Sol Ring, Selesnya Charm
Another 2/2 factory. OTP evoke grief, keeping mischief for piracy forces you to make a 2/2. Oko beats a 2/2. OTD elking the sceptre lets you kill oko, so I make a food and play my land tapped. 2nd turn I make an elk and an elemental vs another 2/2. Attacking doesn’t seem profitable so you can wait.

Oko, being bullshit, can then elk the sceptre. 3/3 and 3 2/2s against 3/2 and 3/3 can’t kill a PW at 6 loyalty. WW 6-0

FourDogsinaHorseSuit and Dooey both have WL. The first matchup looks complicated.

8. Dooey: Piracy Charm, Isochron Scepter, Sol Ring, Selesnya Charm
5. Reeplcheep: Oko, Thief of Crowns, Imp’s Mischief, Grief, Malakir Rebirth
Agree with you when you are on the play, I can't beat oko. When I'm on the play, don't forget the +2/+2 mode of selesnya charm and +2/-1 mode of piracy charm. If you don't evoke grief to take piracy charm t1, I can double pump my 2/2 and kill oko from 6 loyalty. If you do evoke grief, I can put oko to 2 loyalty on my t2, you make food into elk, I swing at oko again and pump, and either kill oko, or kill your 3/3 while keeping my 2/2 around. WL, 17 points.

Okay, I think I'm with Dooey that that one is WL.


Looking at the bans, they seem to be
Cabal Therapy
Cathar Commando
Grief
Hangarback Walker
Imp’s Mischief
Khalni Garden
Malakir Rebirth
Mana Leak
Memory Lapse
Miscast
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Progenitus
Show and Tell
Young Wolf

Plus Chatterstorm
Conjurer's Bauble
Enthusiastic Mechanaut if GoblinSmashmaster's score against Wrath of Pie holds up.

I hope to confirm the bans and open the round in a day or two.

[dte]

Smashmaster says WW but doesn't explain. I haven't looked at the Delay math too closely, but I think you have to delay the flyer, and then you'll be facing 4 squirrels from Mechanaut, Delay, Bauble, and Chatterstorm itself, and I think you have to spend your mana rebuying and recasting Delay.

Seems that it is the only MU that delay you.
Note that if gob casts chatterstorm, the gob can resolve.

WoP, land.
G, 4 tokens, delay.
Land, raise the alarm.
G attack (16), 2c on gob.
Draw raise or delay, attack (18)
G attack (12), 1c on gob
Attack (16), pass

Option raise:
G casts gob, attack, raise & 2 blocks (8).
Bottom & draw raise
G attack (4), G will win eventually.

Option delay:
Gob got delayed again 3c, attack (8)
Bottom raise
2c, attack (4)
Pass
1c attack, 2 blocked (2)

==> gob wins both, and baubles & chatterstorm are banned.


Also, 4dogs definitely beats Reap OTP: 2/2s every turn are far better than 3/3s every other turn.
Attacking will never be possible for Reep, as grief and elkfood all trade 1-to-1 with bears, while 4dogs just have to wait 20+ turns to one-shot Reep.
--> WL

[silkster]

Okay, the new bans are confirmed to be Acererak the Archlich
Aluren
Cabal Therapy
Cathar Commando
Chatterstorm
Conjurer's Bauble
Enthusiastic Mechanaut
Grief
Hangarback Walker
Imp’s Mischief
Khalni Garden
Malakir Rebirth
Mana Leak
Memory Lapse
Miscast
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Progenitus
Show and Tell
Young Wolf.

The googlesheet and the second post have both been updated. Round opening very shortly.

[silkster]

ROUND 7 OF SEASON 14: WUBRG is now open.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 7, and for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is 3b88b8f7e5b55123390411e22bf58ad69b9410d983119a68803982091f5ff7f2

[B]DEADLINE: Tuesday December 13th at 1:00pm Eastern Standard Time (GMT-5).
PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows:

silkster: Ice Tunnel, Ice Over, On Thin Ice, Svella, Ice Shaper.

So with name, colon, and card tags around each card, and not above each other, and with your Username and 4CB S14R07 in the topic.

Usually you should keep an eye on the banned list, found in the second post and in the spreadsheet. Remember that the card pool is Vintage minus Unfinity.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy listbuilding!

name and 4CB S14R07
YOURNAME: [cards]A[/cards], [cards]B[/cards], [cards]C[/cards], [cards]D[/cards].