1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
I can't interact with this. LL 0-6, 0 total
2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
Orim's chant, then short. WW 6-0, 6 total
3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
If you cast savage summoning I have Orim's chant and if you cast Lavinia without savage I have pyroblast. I can, on my turn, cast Orim's chant. You must then respond with savage + Lavinia or you will get shorted. Then I let the stack resolve and play dryad arbor (which you can't kill as you're silenced). I then blast Lavinia as dryad arbor is a land so I can get around the restriction, then short. WW 6-0, 12 total
4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
That's me!
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
Short, blast timetwister, and chant in response to regrowth and you never have the mana to cast empty. WW 6-0, 18 total
6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare
Mana short (and void snare does nothing). WW 6-0, 24 total
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
I can't beat leyline. LL 0-6, 24 total
8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
Short, pay for chancellor, blast queller, get stopped by solitude. DD 2-2, 26 total
9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
Chant forces force. I then blast force and short while protected by silence. WW 6-0, 32 total
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
Dryad arbor lets me blast Lavinia while it is on the battlefield. If you bounce Lavinia with Otawara, you must use your starting blue for that, then you must have used your starting white to cast Lavinia and you won't have the mana to recast Lavinia. WW 6-0, 38 total
11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
I cast Orim's chant. If you veto, I have pyroblast for Jace. If you don't veto, I short you. WW 6-0, 44 total
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
Chant forces queller, then I blast it and short protected by chant. WW 6-0, 50 total
Objection! I have the mana to do both, even with the chancellor tax.Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Objection! You never have the mana to cast empty because of short and chant in response to regrowth.
Disagreement. I think Symbi is right.
After Mana Short you can still go Lotus -> Regrowth -> Lotus -> Empty for 8 goblins, dodging Pyroblast. But Orim's Chant in response to Regrowth stops you. You have to pass the turn, lose 1 mana, then next turn all you can do is Lotus -> Twister into Pyroblast. LL 0-6
It's just this one week. Our daylight time change is this coming Saturday.
I thought the exact opposite, that everyone would play it, and how to beat it and the decks that beat it. But then I decided to take the same advise as FTW:
It was at this moment that I realized that Jace doesn't have to wait a turn to win.2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
6-0. Pyroblast your jace, veto your pyroblast, do not care about the elephant.
Oh, duh. I was so disappointed that Boseiju wasn't looking the things I thought it would that I forgot it was useful here. And I was so set on playing Boseiju that I didn't think of Otawara.I dont get it, Bosejiu the leyline and win?
4 dogs seem to agree with this line
4CB Season 14 banned list in the second post and link to the google sheet.
I was trying to figure out how you win while I lose. I think you lose too.
You cannot Pyroblast Lavi on the stack (uncounterable) or on the battlefield (Lavi ability). After T0 Lavi, you can never play Lotus or Jace. LL 0-6?
I can only interact because of Spell Queller, but my Queller dies to Pyroblast or Vendetta.
I'm not sure what combos you're referring to. Do you just mean Jace, Wielder of Mysteries himself? A good place to start is ban lists from other seasons, which you can find in post 2 of Asthereal's thread.
Last edited by silkster; 11-02-2022 at 12:27 PM.
4CB Season 14 banned list in the second post and link to the google sheet.
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
Two lands beats Tabernacle. WW
2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
OTP I get Lavinia into play. However, pytting your Sunken Ruins into play allows you to cast Pyroblast, so you kill it, leaving you with the 4 nonred mana floating. I then bounce whichever threat you play. With your Sunken Ruins, you can get to 6 mana over 2 turns, which means you can't cast anything past your first threat since everything but double Loxodon costs too much, and you can't get double green or white. OTD you play one threat, I bounce it, and then you play your other which I can't beat. DL
3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
I bounce your Lavinia and play mine. WW
4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
Dryad Arbor lets you kill Lavinia with Pyroblast, and I can't do anything useful with Otawara. LL
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
OTP you can't do anything with Lavinia in play, OTD I can't beat your goblins. WL
6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare
I can bounce Sire of Insanity if you play it and you can't play it twice, Orim's Chant does nothing because of my Leyline, and you can't cast Void Snare to bounce Lavinia. WW
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
I bounce your Dryad and then you can't beat Lavinia. WW
8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
My leyline means that Mesmeric Fiend can't take anything from me, and you can't evoke Solitude with Lavinia in play. I play Lavinia, paying for Chancellor. If you Spell Queller Lavinia, then I bounce Spell Queller with Otawara, getting Lavinia back, and then you don't have the colors to recast it. Lavinia then races your Mesmeric Fiend. WW
9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
You can't use your noncreature spells, but Lavinia can't get past Painter's Servant. DD
11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
If you play Jace, I bounce it with Otawara, and you can't cast anything once Lavinia is in play. WW
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
OTP you play Jace, I bounce it, and then you play Spell Queller which outraces Lavinia. OTD I start by playing Lavinia, and you Spell Queller it. I can bounce it, but then the recast Lavinia is not uncounterable anymore, so you can Pyroblast it and win with Jace. LL
14W 3D 5L = 45
A very good result considering I forgot that Jace and Spell Queller existed when coming up with the list. I chose Otawara since I really wanted an uncounterable way to beat both creature and artifact wincons, and got lucky that it hits planeswalkers too.
Just experience from past seasons. Many of us have played together a while. Others probably played elsewhere (Reddit?).
Every season Thassa/Lab Man either start banned or define round 1. Black Lotus and Chancellor of the Annex also dominate early. The starting WBURG mana adds a twist to alter viability of threats and answers, shaking up the format. Jace gets easier to cast so 4-mana Thassa is still good. Some WBURG hate strategies came up in a past Deviant season (Lavinia, Mana Short, Tabernacle), so they were known tech.
Past seasons and banlists are publicly available... if you have the patience to go through the old thread.
Last edited by FTW; 11-02-2022 at 10:14 AM.
I played CB well before Reddit was even really a thing, back when the classic Lotus/Balance/Rack was even dumber than it is now. Didn't help that people thought Dodecapod did things against it (it didn't).
You can't counter Lavi, as I Savage Summon her, and after she resolves, you can't cast Pyroblast anymore, so that won't work.
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Asthereal's results for round 2:
1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures LL
I gave up this matchup.
2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter DD
Uh.. Ruins allows you to cast Pyro on Lavi, then I get to Pyro your Jace or Vendetta your Smiter. Either way we draw.
3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta <- me
Many different ideas again, this time I was in time to realize that my original deck was again sorcery speed, and would be bad, so I chose this instead. Vulnerable, but very fast.
4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor LL
EDIT: Actually I was wrong here. If you start with Mana Short, I can Pyroblast it, which you can't do anything about and doesn't help you. You have to keep Chant up and use it well. If you allow me Summoning in Lavi and then play Arbor to allow yourself to Pyroblast-destroy my Lavi, you open yourself up to Vendetta on Arbor, but if you take any other route, you die. So you need Chant to protect Arbor from Vendetta AND Mana Short from Pyroblast, or you lose/draw, depending.
OTD I have to wait, as you casting Chant in response to Summoning is bad. On your main phase, you Chant, I respond by Summoning in Lavi. Chant resolves, I can't cast stuff anymore this turn. You now play Arbor, which allows you to cast Pyroblast (you have a land now), which you do in order to destroy my Lavi. This opens up your final play: Mana Short, in order to get rid of my black mana. You have to do all this in your turn, as I have no answer now (Chant), so OTD I lose anyway.
OTP if you Mana Short on my upkeep, I Pyroblast it. If you Chant, I respond by Summoning in Lavi. You can't play Arbor yet, as it is my turn, so neither helps you just yet. You wait. I go to my main phase. You still wait. Main phase I can't cast Summoning, as you'll respond by casting Chant, and after that resolves you can safely go for Mana Short. But I can try to cast Lavi as is. You respond by first casting Chant, and then countering Lavi with Pyroblast. Then you use Mana Short to drop my final mana and prevent Vendetta again. Arbor would still win. So I have to wait. But if I pass, we get the line OTD. So yeah, I still lose both, but not because of what I posted earlier.
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens WW
First upkeep I make Lavi and you can't cast the business.
6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare WL
You can use Chant to respond to Summoning, but OTP I can just cast Lavi normally and win. OTD though, you get to have Sire and just win.
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity WW
First upkeep I uncounterably make Lavi and you can't cast things.
8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller WW
I can pay extra B for Chancellor and Pyroblast-counter Queller, but Lavi only stops noncreature stuff, and so you get to Solitude Lavi and then cast a 1/1 to kill me.
EDIT: Actually, you spend no mana to cast Solitude, so that gets countered, and my 3/3 beats the 1/1 Fiend. That's lucky.
9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant WW
First upkeep I uncounterably make Lavi and you can't cast things.
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City LL
You can bounce Lavi, and make your own which I can't counter and afterwards can't destroy as I have no lands.
11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries WW
First upkeep I uncounterably make Lavi and you can't cast your relevant things.
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast WW
First upkeep I make Lavi, which you can try to Queller, but I can Pyroblast-counter, so you don't get to use the shenanigans. After Lavi enters the battlefield, you can't cast things anymore.
Total: 41 points
Last edited by Asthereal; 11-02-2022 at 10:20 AM.
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Several matchups of mine were wrong since I forgot I don’t have the colours to hardcast solitude. I’ll go back and fix.
This is the link to the previously banned cards:
Curse my lack of mana again!
(Loxodon Smiter let me down, no one played discard other than jfb1337 to make it look good.)
Yeah, sad days: you're a mana short. Ruins plus WG casts Smiter, R casts Pyro, and now you have UB left, but you need one more (plus the use of Ruins) to cast Jace.
As to the discard: I had discard sent in, but realized it was sorcery speed again, and I didn't feel like that would do me any good just yet. You'd have murdered that deck.
Thing about the one mana is: if you solve it with Basking Rootwalla, you run into the issue that you now perhaps draw against discard decks, who'd have Walla as wincon and you now trade instead of just beat.
I guess you needed a cheaper second wincon than Jace. Dryad Arbor plus Lab Man would have been extremely funny here, but the Lab dude got the axe last round. Also, it's too slow against Jace..
Join the 4 Card Blind competition!
Lavinia stops neither Lotus into Sire nor Old-Growth Dryads. Ah, but Vendetta catches the Dryads and Lavinia protects the Vendetta from the Veto.
4CB Season 14 banned list in the second post and link to the google sheet.
Objection! Lavinia will counter Lotus as no mana will be spent to cast it. You are correct about Dryads, however. Edit: Lavinia being unable to stop dryads doesn't matter.
Yeah, Lavinia is incredible in this format. I forgot who came up with her during the Deviant Legacy seasons, but that was an amazing find.
Join the 4 Card Blind competition!
Oh, the second cause stopping Lotus, not even because it was cheated out. Cute.
I remember finding Lavinia and then deciding against it (probably mistakenly). It was dte who found Lavinia and had the wisdom to play it.
I put in scores for jfb1337, and I highlighted the cards that will be banned. Tabernacle and Boseiju survive by a margin of ε.
It looks like the newly banned cards will be:
Black Lotus
Cavern of Souls
Dovin's Veto
Dryad Arbor
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
Leyline of Sanctity
Mana Short
Orim's Chant
Otawara, Soaring City
Pyroblast
Savage Summoning
Spell Queller
Vendetta
For now, I've updated just the spreadsheet. You should be able to start planning your decks now. I'll lock in the bans likely in about 32 hours.
Looks like Symbi and dte are already starting to separate from the pack. I'm just barely holding onto third. For two weeks now, as I see the decks rolling in, I've looked at Symbi's entry and I just see WW and wonder what Symbi was thinking being so vulnerable to exactly what I'm doing. Well, it seems I've managed to target the best deck each week. Maybe one of these days I'll actually play it instead.
4CB Season 14 banned list in the second post and link to the google sheet.
Sorry I'm late with my scores; been a bit busy.
6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare
1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
WD - I can sire, but OTD it dies to tabby.
2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
DD - Smiter trades with sire
3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
WL - OTP I play lotus, then chant; you lavinia in response (else any earlier and a chant in response to summoning); but 6/4 beats 2/2. OTD I can't stop lavinia.
4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
LL - You mana short me
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
WW - Chant stops your combo and I win
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
LL - Can't chant due to leyline; you edict the sire and veto the void snare
8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
LL - I don't have the mana to do everything. You'll always end up with queller in play and sire solituded
9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
WW - OTP I chant then sire. OTD you play painter, then I void snare it, chant, and sire; you don't have enough interaction to stop it all.
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
LL - Otawara bounces sire and you can play lavinia.
11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
WL - OTP I chant then sire. OTD I can't stop jace.
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
WL - OTP I chant then sire. OTD I can't stop jace.
Total: 8W3D = 27
Looks to be in agreement with everyone else.
Great! I've updated the banlist in the spreadsheet and in the second post. I'm not opening the round yet, but your can start your brewing.
4CB Season 14 banned list in the second post and link to the google sheet.
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