Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 32 of 32

Thread: Root Maze Parfait

  1. #21
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,155

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Good comments.

    Overall I think it will be important to balance between disruption for lands, disruption for spells, and disruption for creatures/permanents.

    Thalia, Heretic Cathar also taps creatures, so it slows down creature decks. Tapped land + tapped creature is 2 turns slower to play a blocker! She's also a 3/2 first strike. You can always board her out if opponent has no creatures.

    I was concerned that with 4 Thalia 4 Thorn 4 Prelate we are overboarded for spell-heavy decks like Storm and Burn, but have too many dead cards vs creature decks and Lands. Looking at this more, perhaps it is better to put Thorn in the SB and play more disruptive creatures maindeck? Thorn is the most likely to be dead, since it is not a creature and taxes itself. This will take some testing to find the right balance.

    I am thinking:
    //Mana: 24
    16 lands
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide

    //Noncreatures: 8
    4 Root Maze
    4 Suppression Field

    //Creatures: 28
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Leonin Arbiter
    3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    3 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    4 Endurance
    4 Skyclave Apparition

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Solitude
    3 Force of Vigor
    2 Collector Ouphe
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Armageddon
    3 Thorn of Amethyst

    If Thalia Heretic Cathar is still too weak, maybe it should be Solitude or something else that interacts with creatures?

    I still love Armageddon. But realistically it's dead in fast games. It's only relevant in long grindy games against decks that will slowly build up many lands (Lands, 4c Yorion, 12post, Standstill, Bant Uro). So it probably belongs in the SB.

  2. #22

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Good comments.

    Overall I think it will be important to balance between disruption for lands, disruption for spells, and disruption for creatures/permanents.

    Thalia, Heretic Cathar also taps creatures, so it slows down creature decks. Tapped land + tapped creature is 2 turns slower to play a blocker! She's also a 3/2 first strike. You can always board her out if opponent has no creatures.

    I was concerned that with 4 Thalia 4 Thorn 4 Prelate we are overboarded for spell-heavy decks like Storm and Burn, but have too many dead cards vs creature decks and Lands. Looking at this more, perhaps it is better to put Thorn in the SB and play more disruptive creatures maindeck? Thorn is the most likely to be dead, since it is not a creature and taxes itself. This will take some testing to find the right balance.

    I am thinking:
    //Mana: 24
    16 lands
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide

    //Noncreatures: 8
    4 Root Maze
    4 Suppression Field

    //Creatures: 28
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Leonin Arbiter
    3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    3 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    4 Endurance
    4 Skyclave Apparition

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Solitude
    3 Force of Vigor
    2 Collector Ouphe
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Armageddon
    3 Thorn of Amethyst

    If Thalia Heretic Cathar is still too weak, maybe it should be Solitude or something else that interacts with creatures?

    I still love Armageddon. But realistically it's dead in fast games. It's only relevant in long grindy games against decks that will slowly build up many lands (Lands, 4c Yorion, 12post, Standstill, Bant Uro). So it probably belongs in the SB.

    I'm wondering if Winter Orb in the sb might be better for the Lands match-up than Armageddon. It is easier to cast and with Root Maze, Suppression Field, and Leonin main deck it's absolutely gnarly.

    How about Choke in the sb? It's so mean with Root Maze!
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  3. #23

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    You have to be careful with too many white hate bears otherwise you'll lose the green count for Endurance and Force.
    Is Gaddock Teeg still playable?
    Allosaurus Shepherd might be ok because he can also beat.

  4. #24
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,155

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Maindeck still has green count 16. Endurance can be cast on turn 2. Postboard when FoV goes in Ouphe goes in too, so green count 21 when Force is in. It should work but it's low.
    Maybe that Thalia, Heretic Cathar spot should be a green creature. Maybe Spirit of the Labyrinth could be green beatdown.

    Gaddock Teeg still hits FoW, GSZ, Tendrils/Empty/Peer/PiF/Ad Naus, enemy Force of Vigor, Supreme Verdict, Jace, Wandering Emperor, Minsc & Boo, Karn, Ruination... Is that enough?

    Allosaurus Shepherd seems bad. There really isn't the mana to activate Dino-mode and it only protects your green spells, so it's a bad Leyline of Lifeforce/Vexing Shusher.

    Realistically Winter Orb is better than Geddon for those big-land matchups.

    Choke is amazing when it works. I wonder if it's overkill. Do we already win those? Do we already have enough fair blue hate? Does Winter Orb cover more matchups?

  5. #25

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Maindeck still has green count 16. Endurance can be cast on turn 2. Postboard when FoV goes in Ouphe goes in too, so green count 21 when Force is in. It should work but it's low.
    Maybe that Thalia, Heretic Cathar spot should be a green creature. Maybe Spirit of the Labyrinth could be green beatdown.

    Gaddock Teeg still hits FoW, GSZ, Tendrils/Empty/Peer/PiF/Ad Naus, enemy Force of Vigor, Supreme Verdict, Jace, Wandering Emperor, Minsc & Boo, Karn, Ruination... Is that enough?

    Allosaurus Shepherd seems bad. There really isn't the mana to activate Dino-mode and it only protects your green spells, so it's a bad Leyline of Lifeforce/Vexing Shusher.

    Realistically Winter Orb is better than Geddon for those big-land matchups.

    Choke is amazing when it works. I wonder if it's overkill. Do we already win those? Do we already have enough fair blue hate? Does Winter Orb cover more matchups?
    I'm not a huge fan of Spirit of Labyrinth. Seems like the matchups where he'd be good we're already good against. He's terrible as a beatstick.

    2-3 Questing Beast seems not shitty here at all.

    EDIT: Even though he's not a Legacy staple, I still like Steel Leaf Champion, he can hit the table turn 2. A 5/4 with evasion for 3 mana is really good.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  6. #26
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,155

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Good point. I forget why I picked Spirit as the card to replace Thorn. It hates on Brainstorm decks, but so does half the deck, and so would some green cards. Green count and beatdown matter more.

    I think 2 Questing Beast looks better (has same evasion + 10 other abilities) but Steel-Leaf deserves testing. Shifting Ceratops is another option (lines up better vs Murktide & friends).
    Maybe 2 Knight of Autumn.

  7. #27

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Good point. I forget why I picked Spirit as the card to replace Thorn. It hates on Brainstorm decks, but so does half the deck, and so would some green cards. Green count and beatdown matter more.

    I think 2 Questing Beast looks better (has same evasion + 10 other abilities) but Steel-Leaf deserves testing. Shifting Ceratops is another option (lines up better vs Murktide & friends).
    Maybe 2 Knight of Autumn.
    Any of those three is probably really good. I like Knight of Autumn. Always forget about that one. Maybe on the side or even in place of Skyclave main since they share a similar removal ability. Knight might be better because: A). there's no drawback if he dies. B). he's bigger if you choose the +1+1 counters and C). he's green so you can pitch him to Solitude if necessary as Zoid was saying.

    Shifting Ceratops and/or some combination of Questing Beast in the "finisher" slot seems correct. These guys are great but you'd think that "Green" being the "creature" color would have something more unstoppable in the 3 to 4 cc range. True-Name Nemesis should have been green.

    Speaking of which, what about Hexdrinker?
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  8. #28
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,155

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Hexdrinker seems good. But is it too mana hungry for this deck? Especially with Winter Orb. It also clashes with Suppression Field.

    Steel Leaf Champion, Knight of Autumn, and Questing Beast at least don't clash with any of the prison cards. Even if they are higher on the curve. The curve is getting crowded at 3, with more room at 1-2. There's also Tarmogoyf but it may be small.

  9. #29

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    I think first we should theorycraft what actual bad matchups or board states are.
    Admittedly, I'm not too up to date with the current meta.

    I can think of the following:

    -) Being on the play in general seems to be not what this deck wants. If your opponent gets to drop an early threat or can counter your resistors before you get a critical mass or a good threat on your own, you'll likely run out of steam quickly. At least most of your resistors have meat attached to them. ESG and Chrome Mox help you out in this case but also create disadvantage. Maybe you want some Veil of Summer at least in the SB to force stuff through? A single Gemstone Caverns might be worth it as well. I don't think you want/need card draw as you don't want to play the long game however Esper Sentinel might be worth it as pseudo resistor with refueling capacity.

    -) Decks who don't need to resolve a lot of spells to win (Dark Depths, Show&Tell, A+B combo). Here, I can't think of too much. Maybe Flickerwisp or something like Touch the Spirit Realm might be able to buy time or get rid of tokens.

    -) Decks who don't care about your resistors too much (Other creature based decks, Stompy, Affinity/Robots, Post. Here Knight of Autumn might be more valuable but just having a bigger dude might also just be better. Needs to be tested and depends on the meta.

    In general, there might be a danger of becoming too reactive in deck building. I would consider this as an aggro deck so you want to have them answer your plays instead of the other way around.

  10. #30

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Had a busy weekend, so just now responding.

    @FTW: Good point on Hexdrinker. We could give Tarmogoyf a shot as you said. Who cares if he isn't a 6/7, a 4/5 for 2 mana is really good and that should/could happen a lot. Too bad Dauthi Voidwalker isn't green. I'm still diggin Steel Leaf Champion!

    @Zoid: I do really like Esper Sentinel. A lot! It's another 1 drop like Root Maze. Could have a spot here, maybe with some tweaking and testing.

    Gonna try FTW's list above but with Steel Leaf Champion in the Spirit of the Labyrinth slot. Might have to test it online because I'm not going to get together with my MTG play buddy anytime soon. Keep you guys posted if I do.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  11. #31
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,155

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    @FTW: Good point on Hexdrinker. We could give Tarmogoyf a shot as you said. Who cares if he isn't a 6/7, a 4/5 for 2 mana is really good and that should/could happen a lot. Too bad Dauthi Voidwalker isn't green. I'm still diggin Steel Leaf Champion!

    @Zoid: I do really like Esper Sentinel. A lot! It's another 1 drop like Root Maze. Could have a spot here, maybe with some tweaking and testing.

    Gonna try FTW's list above but with Steel Leaf Champion in the Spirit of the Labyrinth slot. Might have to test it online because I'm not going to get together with my MTG play buddy anytime soon. Keep you guys posted if I do.
    Good luck with testing!

    If you use that list, I would tweak the SB:

    //Lands: 16
    4 Savannah
    4 Razorverge Thicket
    4 Horizon Canopy
    2 Temple Garden
    2 Boseiju, Who Endures

    //Other Mana: 8
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide

    //Noncreatures: 8
    4 Root Maze
    4 Suppression Field

    //Creatures: 25
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Leonin Arbiter
    4 Endurance
    4 Skyclave Apparition
    3 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

    //Flex beatdown: 3
    3 beatdown creature

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Solitude
    3 Force of Vigor
    2 Collector Ouphe
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Winter Orb
    3 Esper Sentinel


    We already discussed Winter Orb over Geddon.

    I did not love Thorn. Multiple copies resist each other. It's also a colorless noncreature, which is bad for threat count and pitch costs. I was thinking about Deafening Silence/Ethersworn Canonist. But Esper Sentinel might be even better. Unlike Chalice decks, we can run 1-mana resistors.

    For the beatdown slot, SLC looks good. You may find the curve crowded at 3 mana. Tarmogoyf looks better for curve reasons, but it could be a 0/1 sometimes! The deck disrupts fetchlands and cantrips, so graveyards may be smaller than normal. We also exile a lot (Mox, ESG, pitch costs, Skyclave, Solitude, Priest) and maindeck 4 Endurance. None of that helps Goyf. So I do not know what that beatdown slot should be. See how testing goes with Steel Leaf Champion.

    @Zoid: Not sold on Veil of Summer. With all the mana denial and low land count, the deck will not have an easy time holding open an extra G all the time (or 1G!). Holding up Veil would slow down plays. Leyline of Lifeforce is much better tempo, but seems underwhelming. Do we even need anti-counterspells? Most disruption is on creatures. The creatures are already immune to common counters like FoN, REB, BEB, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Dovin's Veto, Mystical Dispute. The main risks are Force of Will and Daze. Playing around Daze is equivalent to holding G open for Veil, except you can do it without running Veil (+1 threat to hand), so Veil doesn't help there. That means it's mainly to fight Force of Will. It does hurt to get a turn 1 resistor Forced. But if we protect with Veil, we lose tempo (maybe cannot play it on turn 1-2), allowing opponent to play under the resistor anyway. Usually GW's strategy is to let opponent Force the creature and then just play redundant creatures to punish the 2-for-1. Stompy decks do the same thing. Maybe we should do the same. I think that is better than using Veil to fight Force on creature. It could just as easily die to Bolt or StP (where Veil does not help), so that card should be another proactive threat instead of Veil.

  12. #32

    Re: Root Maze Parfait

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    @Zoid: Not sold on Veil of Summer. With all the mana denial and low land count, the deck will not have an easy time holding open an extra G all the time (or 1G!). Holding up Veil would slow down plays. Leyline of Lifeforce is much better tempo, but seems underwhelming. Do we even need anti-counterspells? Most disruption is on creatures. The creatures are already immune to common counters like FoN, REB, BEB, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Dovin's Veto, Mystical Dispute. The main risks are Force of Will and Daze. Playing around Daze is equivalent to holding G open for Veil, except you can do it without running Veil (+1 threat to hand), so Veil doesn't help there. That means it's mainly to fight Force of Will. It does hurt to get a turn 1 resistor Forced. But if we protect with Veil, we lose tempo (maybe cannot play it on turn 1-2), allowing opponent to play under the resistor anyway. Usually GW's strategy is to let opponent Force the creature and then just play redundant creatures to punish the 2-for-1. Stompy decks do the same thing. Maybe we should do the same. I think that is better than using Veil to fight Force on creature. It could just as easily die to Bolt or StP (where Veil does not help), so that card should be another proactive threat instead of Veil.
    Fair point.
    I mainly wanted to list options for certain scenarios.
    Let's wait for Laser Brains until he tested his build a bit and discuss his observations.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)