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Thread: Mono W Initiative Stompy

  1. #21
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Getting back from Eternal Weekend, safe to say this deck is not a brew.
    Once the lists get posted this should move to Established Decks.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  2. #22
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Related in a big way to this deck, it's crazy to me that Brainstorm/FoW/Ponder now have competition for being the most-played nonland card in Lotus Petal (albeit a mana card), in the last two weeks. Not saying it'll stay that way, but I don't remember that ever happening, or Brainstorm being at 42%.

    Got there, kinda


  3. #23
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Should this be in N&D or DTB?
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#paper

    It's the #2 deck after Delver, 12.8% of the meta.

    McWinSauce 3rd place from Jan 1st MTGO Legacy Challenge

    //Mana: 29
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Emeria's Call
    1 Karakas
    2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
    2 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Cavern of Souls

    //Core: 16
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 White Plume Adventurer
    4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
    4 Solitude

    //Prison: 4
    4 Chalice of the Void

    //Other creatures: 8
    4 Elite Spellbinder
    2 Palace Jailer
    2 Walking Ballista

    //Tricks: 3
    3 Touch the Spirit Realm

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Archon of Absolution
    2 Blessed Alliance
    1 Loran of the Third Path
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Touch the Spirit Realm


    cenora_jf 1st place from Dec 31st MTGO Legacy Challenge

    //Mana: 29
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Emeria's Call
    2 Karakas
    1 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
    2 Plains
    4 Cavern of Souls

    //Core: 16
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 White Plume Adventurer
    4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
    4 Solitude

    //Prison: 4
    4 Chalice of the Void

    //Other creatures: 8
    4 Elite Spellbinder
    2 Palace Jailer
    2 Walking Ballista

    //Tricks: 3
    3 Touch the Spirit Realm

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Empty-Shrine Kannushi
    2 Containment Priest
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Null Rod



    _Batutinha_ 4th place from Dec 31st MTGO Legacy Challenge

    //Mana: 29
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Emeria's Call
    1 Karakas
    2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
    2 Plains
    4 Cavern of Souls

    //Core: 16
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 White Plume Adventurer
    4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
    4 Solitude

    //Prison: 4
    4 Chalice of the Void

    //Other creatures: 8
    4 Elite Spellbinder
    2 Palace Jailer
    2 Walking Ballista

    //Tricks: 3
    3 Touch the Spirit Realm

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Empty-Shrine Kannushi
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Ephemerate
    1 Walking Ballista



    gnorilgrande 1st place Dec 29th MTGO Legacy Super Qualifier

    //Mana: 29
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Emeria's Call
    1 Karakas
    2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
    2 Plains
    4 Cavern of Souls

    //Core: 16
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 White Plume Adventurer
    4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
    4 Solitude

    //Prison: 4
    4 Chalice of the Void

    //Other creatures: 8
    4 Elite Spellbinder
    2 Palace Jailer
    2 Walking Ballista

    //Tricks: 3
    3 Touch the Spirit Realm

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Archon of Absolution
    2 Blessed Alliance
    1 Loran of the Third Path
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Touch the Spirit Realm



    Robert Hayes 9-1 2022 NA Legacy Championship Dec 10th

    //Mana: 30
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Emeria's Call
    2 Karakas
    1 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
    3 Plains
    4 Cavern of Souls

    //Core: 16
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 White Plume Adventurer
    4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
    4 Solitude

    //Other creatures: 7
    3 Elite Spellbinder
    2 Anointed Peacekeeper
    1 Palace Jailer
    1 Walking Ballista

    //Tricks: 7
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Touch the Spirit Realm

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Rest in Peace
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Loran of the Third Path
    2 Aven Mindcensor
    2 Walking Ballista



    Some notes:
    -The Stoneforge package is out. I called that early. It takes too much space from the few non-core slots. More hatecreatures and interaction is better.
    -Most are on Chalice main and StP SB. Some have StP main (often Chalice SB). Depends on meta.
    -Flying Elite Spellbinder seems to be the preferred 3cmc hate-elephant, though Anointed Peacekeeper and Archon of Emeria also see play
    -Archon of Absolution is seeing more play as the SB pro-white mirror-breaker
    -Walking Ballista gets around SB pro-white creatures

  4. #24
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Well DtB hasn't been updated since summer.
    We're well beyond rogue deck, people should expect to face and have sideboard strategies against this deck.

    Question for the pilots: what additions does this deck give that helps it avoid the traditional auto-losses to itself other stompy decks suffer from?
    Emeria's Call as Chrome Mox pitch or land drop by itself is a positive change to the archetype in that regard, but every color has that option now.
    Secret Entrance helps buffer the losses of going all-in on getting Initiative turn 1, so you're not stuck on Ancient Tomb for the rest of the game.
    Is there anything else that aids the deck where the other flavors of stompy have faltered?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  5. #25
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Stompy's auto-losses come from internal variance due to bad topdecks: redundant lock pieces, redundant mana, card-disadvantage acceleration. Much of that is inherent to the shell. But that variance gets worse when you needed combinations of the right cards to create threats.

    Examples: 2/2 + equipment (the older days), Smokestack + engine (Stax), tribal synergy (Soldier Stompy), Leyline + Helm (Black Stompy). With configurations like that, the variance is worse. Even if you establish your turn 1 prison, you have to get lucky drawing the right combinations of cards to end the game, giving opponent time to draw out of the prison. That's how those decks traditionally faltered. Other builds used fatties as 1-card threats (Faerie Stompy, Demon Stompy) but those fatties had drawbacks (Sea Drake, Rotting Regisaur, Tomb of Urami). If opponent resolves 1 removal, your plan falls apart.

    Red Stompy became dominant when it gained multiple 1-card token engines at 2R (Rabblemaster + Warboss), letting it close the game quickly with 1 Gray Ogre and not lose to 1 removal. That was a huge boost for Stompy, something it could never do before, catapulting Red into the frontrunner Stompy archetype for a long time. Then Red kept getting more explosive standalone tools: Chandra, Bonecrusher Giant (2-for-1), Fable of the Mirror-Breaker, Laelia, the Blade Reforged, Caves of Chaos Adventurer. Stompy does better when it can take over the game with 1 topdecked card.

    Reeplcheep's Curses used Curse of Misfortunes as a 1-card wincon. That innovation made Black stompy playable again, only needing to resolve 1 card to quickly lock up the game. However it costs 5-mana and is only a 4-of, so there's still variance around drawing it and getting to 5 mana, as well as the "dead slots" for tutor targets. The other win condition (Leyline + Helm) is a 2-card combo. So while the deck was strong, it had more variance and didn't break into Tier 1.

    Initiative creatures are 1-card wincons. Even if opponent has removal, Initiative gives you immediately +1 card and threatens to snowball if they can't take it back. Instead of needing to turn Preeminent Captain sideways with Enlistment Officer/Captain of the Watch in hand, white stompy can take over the game just by resolving Adventurer or Dungeoneer. That's a big boost in both resilience and variance reduction! I think that's the main reason why this deck is dominating where past Stompy builds have failed.

    The other variance reduction tools are:
    1) MDFC lands. ETB untapped colored land that topdecks as a card when flooded.
    2) Evoke removal Elementals. Both white and red have them. They can be either turn 1 removal (getting a dead card out of hand) or a slower 2-for-1 creature. Even better with any copy/flicker effects.
    3) Channel lands. White's is removal.
    4) Manlands. Red plays Den of the Bugbear. White could play Cave of the Frost Dragon, but it's slower to activate and doesn't leave behind a token.

    While those tools are in all colors, only the red & white evoke elementals are removal, and the white Channel land is removal.

    What else does White have?
    White is the only color with a playable 3-mana Initiative creature.
    3/3s are bigger than red's 2/2s.
    Thalia adds another cheap turn 1 prison piece that disrupts enemy removal on Initiative creatures.

    Red stompy should still be good though. Red has Caves of Chaos Adventurer, SB Anarchy, and Blood Moon. These White and Naya manabases are getting greedy and should lose to Turn 1 Moon.
    Last edited by FTW; 01-14-2023 at 03:07 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Should this be in N&D or DTB?
    Technically the criteria is a primer, not results. But yeah, it likely ought be moved.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Well DtB hasn't been updated since summer.
    Yeah, that is my fault, I used to have a lot more time, but with the old method not really returning good results and a new method not immediately clear to me, not to mention the fact that some of the decks don't even have threads here, I just haven't been able to get it done.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  7. #27
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    There has been a good summary about the deck recently in this article:

    https://minmaxblog.com/a-new-legacy-deck-innit/

  8. #28
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Yeah, that is my fault, I used to have a lot more time, but with the old method not really returning good results and a new method not immediately clear to me, not to mention the fact that some of the decks don't even have threads here, I just haven't been able to get it done.
    I want to be super clear I was never blaming you. Always appreciative of the time you've donated to the site.

    FTW: are we just seeing the critical mass of consistency to help the deck survive itself over 6+ rounds? Or is the spectre still there and once the number of people playing the deck drops down it just becomes another D&T/Stompy type of thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  9. #29
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    FTW: are we just seeing the critical mass of consistency to help the deck survive itself over 6+ rounds? Or is the spectre still there and once the number of people playing the deck drops down it just becomes another D&T/Stompy type of thing?
    Basically yes. New printings added critical mass of tools for consistency.

    MDFC & Channel lands: Reduces variance of flooding on mana, without compromising access to colored sources to cast key cards
    Evoke Elementals: Dual role of explosive early interaction or lategame 2-for-1 threat & can pitch an extra land thanks to MDFC
    Initiative creatures: Efficient 1-card wincon. Immediate +1 card (thinning Plains from deck). Reduces variance of being unable to end games with durdly bears. Either attack with a 5/5 or scry into another threat.

    Naya Initiative is now going 1 step further with Once Upon A Time to improve threat consistency even more.

    The Initiative mechanic puts these decks far ahead of past Soldier Stompy/Hatebear Stompy variants. It finally gives fair nonblue a powerful engine for card advantage and consistency, attacking the variance problem instead of just power creeping the beat sticks.

  10. #30
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I want to be super clear I was never blaming you. Always appreciative of the time you've donated to the site.
    Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that you were. Just noting why things haven't really been updated. Let me see if I can work something up though, hopefully soon.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  11. #31
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy


    4.0 in 100% of decks

    4.0 in 100% of decks

    4.0 in 100% of decks

    3.5 in 90% of decks

    2.0 in 89% of decks

    3.8 in 82% of decks

    2.5 in 58% of decks

    3.0 in 42% of decks

    1.7 in 34% of decks



    3.9 in 98% of decks

    4.0 in 98% of decks

    3.9 in 98% of decks

    4.0 in 69% of decks

    3.0 in 93% of decks



    4.0 in 100% of decks

    3.7 in 100% of decks

    3.9 in 100% of decks

    1.7 in 100% of decks

    1.3 in 100% of decks

    2.7 in 89% of decks
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  12. #32
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Thoughts on the above as a start to the primer? Obvious I would then need to add sample lists and try to source some matchup information.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  13. #33
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Fair deck is fair: https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklis...-01-0812508244

    Sunday Legacy Challenge Top 4 was Initiative vs Initiative vs Initiative vs Initiative.
    8 other Initiative in the top 32!

    Saturday Challenge had 9 Initiative in the Top 32 and 3 in the Top 8, with top finish at 3rd.

    McWinSauce earned the name by metagaming for that: cut maindeck resistors (Chalice, Thalia) for StP, OUAT and 5 flicker effects to out-Initiative the mirror in Game 1.

    1st Place Jan 8th Legacy Challenge

    //Mana: 30
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Emeria's Call
    2 Karakas
    2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
    2 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Cavern of Souls

    //Core: 12
    0 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 White Plume Adventurer
    4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
    4 Solitude

    //Other creatures: 6
    4 Archon of Emeria
    2 Palace Jailer

    //Spells: 12
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Touch the Spirit Realm
    3 Once Upon A Time
    1 Ephemerate

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Chalice of the Void
    2 Empty-Shrine Kannushi
    2 Loran of the Third Path
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Walking Ballista
    1 Aven Mindcensor



    2nd Place was on a more standard list with better random matchups but worse mirror match

    //Mana: 29
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Emeria's Call
    1 Karakas
    2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
    2 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Cavern of Souls

    //Core: 16
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 White Plume Adventurer
    4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
    4 Solitude

    //Prison: 4
    4 Chalice of the Void

    //Other creatures: 8
    4 Elite Spellbinder
    2 Palace Jailer
    2 Walking Ballista

    //Tricks: 3
    3 Touch the Spirit Realm

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Archon of Absolution
    2 Blessed Alliance
    1 Loran of the Third Path
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Touch the Spirit Realm




    Going into this weekend, it'll be interesting to see if players metagame too hard for the mirror and become vulnerable to combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Thoughts on the above as a start to the primer? Obvious I would then need to add sample lists and try to source some matchup information.
    It's a good start. There's already a good primer on another site, linked above I think. Maybe that could be included in the primer.
    Last edited by FTW; 01-17-2023 at 02:08 AM.

  14. #34
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Going into this weekend, it'll be interesting to see if players metagame too hard for the mirror and become vulnerable to combo.
    Initiative had a less impressive showing in the Jan 15th Showcase Challenge: https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklis...-01-1512509927

    As predicted, most builds were overboarded for the mirror and weaker to combo, while Bryant Cook's TES stormed in to Top 8.

    Promidnightz 3rd place Jan 15th Challenge

    //Mana: 29
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Emeria's Call
    1 Karakas
    2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
    2 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Cavern of Souls

    //Core: 16
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 White Plume Adventurer
    4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
    4 Solitude

    //Prison: 4
    4 Chalice of the Void

    //Other creatures: 8
    4 Elite Spellbinder
    2 Palace Jailer
    2 Walking Ballista

    //Tricks: 3
    3 Touch the Spirit Realm

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Archon of Absolution
    2 Containment Priest
    1 Loran of the Third Path
    1 Null Rod
    1 Touch the Spirit Realm


    The more traditional list with Chalice still made Top 4.

    10th, 11th and 15th place were on the Chalice-less build with Swords & OUAT main, none cracking into Top 8. I don't know if this is just the matchup lottery or variance, but Chalice main still looks better in a broader meta that isn't only Initiative mirrors. The build with 0 Thalia and SB Chalice is much weaker to combo in game 1.

    Check out this diverse meta: 10 Delver, 7 Initiative, 7 combo, 3 4c Minsc

    Most fair strategies are obsolete. 4c Minsc barely makes it in. Explosive decks got to stomp Initiative builds that built too hard for the mirror, but that may change if Thalia & Chalice become popular again.

    Edit: The first place Delver list had 4 maindeck Snuff Out and 3 SB Unchained Berserker, ready to beat Initiative.
    Last edited by FTW; 01-18-2023 at 01:13 PM.

  15. #35

    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    How do you think WOTC will respond to Initiative?

    1. Do Nothing. Combo and Delver are still putting up wins.

    2. Ban White Plume and Expressive Iteration as they are the most powerful new cards in the formats two best decks.

    3. Errata the Initiative mechanic in some fashion.

    4. Ban Initiative and all Initiative cards from Legacy

  16. #36
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    How do you think WOTC will respond to Initiative?

    1. Do Nothing. Combo and Delver are still putting up wins.

    2. Ban White Plume and Expressive Iteration as they are the most powerful new cards in the formats two best decks.

    3. Errata the Initiative mechanic in some fashion.

    4. Ban Initiative and all Initiative cards from Legacy
    The cards only say gain initiative and enter the dungeon. There are no additional characteristics, and the dungeon isn't a magic card. So with zero bans and zero errata to an actual magic card, wotc can just change the dungeon.

    So when you look at the current dungeon, the issue is more that they can get to the throne room before the opponent gets to play magic - and that's largely a function of mana cheating. The card we ultimately need to look at is Ancient Tomb, which is propping up the fast mana and free effects (Solitude).

    Kind of like Delver where the core problem is Daze, the issue here is Ancient Tomb. So if we're not going to fix the problem, the best solution is to re-route the dungeon so that you have to touch every room before going to the throne room.

  17. #37
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    Re: Mono W Initiative Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    So when you look at the current dungeon, the issue is more that they can get to the throne room before the opponent gets to play magic
    The bigger issue is that WPA on the play means you enter the 2nd room before opponent even has a chance to enter the 1st room (with creature + evasion or removal).

    The 2nd room gives a big advantage to keep the initiative (5/5 vigilance or scry into another threat), and you also get to make a turn 2 play (with +1 free Plains) before they attack, so it's an uphill battle for a fair deck to ever take the initiative. The deck then runs up to 16 removal in the 75 (Solitude, Touch the Spirit Realm, StP, Walking Ballista, Palace Jailer) so good luck attacking back. Even if they kill WPA, you keep entering rooms until opponent can successfully attack you. A deck playing fair magic with 1 1cc turn 1 play just can't perform enough game actions in time to keep up with that.

    The only fair deck that keeps up is Delver, because it also cheats on tempo. It can play a turn 1 creature + hold up Force of Will/Daze/Snuff Out, so it can perform enough actions fast enough to be relevant.

    But if you're on T1 Forest GSZ into Arbor go? Or T1 Vial go? Haha. Good luck.

    Edit: It looks like more decks are coming to the tempo battle to fight Initiative
    Hammer Time won last Saturday's Challenge (with 4 SB Mana Tithe!!).
    Death's Shadow also made top 8 with 4 Grief + 4 Snuff Out on top of Force and Daze, to play the tempo game
    4c Minsc won the Sunday Challenge with 3 Dress Down 2 Terminus.

    Initiative probably needs to maindeck Chalice to fight these 1cc decks trying to race.
    Last edited by FTW; Today at 12:24 PM.

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