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Thread: [Deck] Low Tide

  1. #21
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    The bottleneck is still mana, because if you have enough you can just use dump a bunch of mana into Shigeki to get back lands and cantrips. I also strongly suggest the black for Salvage and Alchemy, because they basically say "Draw 4/5" if you're attempting to go off.
    Well in that game the issue was I didn't have Shigeki, and the other tools were not efficient at digging for it (some variance because all copies were near bottom of library).

    In another game I had Shigeki but not Turtle. I could have used it to return a bunch of lands and Growth Spirals, but that's a lot of mana to not dig very deep. If I had access to Zenith, I always went for it, because it just converts mana into cards more efficiently.

    If you have more cards, you can easily make more mana. 1 Zenith would draw me into 3 untaps and/or another 1-2 Dictates.

    Edit: Spending that mana on flashback Forbidden Alchemy and friends is one option, but if I have 25+ mana floating, doing anything other than drawing 15+ cards seems bad. But I see why Grisly Salvage digs effectively.

  2. #22
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    The bottleneck is still mana, because if you have enough you can just use dump a bunch of mana into Shigeki to get back lands and cantrips. I also strongly suggest the black for Salvage and Alchemy, because they basically say "Draw 4/5" if you're attempting to go off.
    How about Unbound Flourishing as an amplifier for Shigeki? It can also double the output of Candelabra of Tawnos, or Magus of the Candelabra.
    Candelabra of Tawnos will double your mana when its not symmetrical, ie. X = 3 untap 6 lands.

    In terms of stax, there is Chalice of the Void, and Engineered Explosives could be board tech. Blast Zone's X input is slightly easier to arrange, but its still slow as a tap. Candelabra could untap it, but I think the effect is a bit narrow, and it doesn't kill EtW tokens.

    In terms of tutors, Traverse the Ulvenwald looks like it would be most efficient, since you're binning 2 enchantment-creatures as a part of your mainline. Then, fetchland and an instant produces the conditions of delirium. Before that its like a cantrip directly to a basic land. Its a really solid, criminally underplayed tutor. I've been brewing a Spring Tide list that uses it as a pseudo cantrip to find basic Islands, or w delirium Cloud of Faeries and Eternal Witness. Caravan Vigil needs morbid, which suggests you're on more removal when it bins the creature.

    If you want a sac input for Veteran Explorer, perhaps Neoform or Mask of the Mimic. I also think of Green Sun's Zenith and Lotus Cobra.

    I really like the idea of putting Exploration and Daze together. Perhaps getting closer to the opening line will produce some new ideas.


    Earthcraft is another basic-specific untapper, and it can feed High Tide lines, and I've played it this way in cEDH. I can assure you that there is more to this card than squirrel nest.

    Some more cEDH tech I've developed that you might like to consider here is (SGS), Sea Gate Stormcaller + Crop Rotation. You'd have to play a lower curve for SGS, I'd say its worth exploring as a comparable to Snapcaster Mage. The kicker can be excellent as you reach more mana, in particular w Snap. SGS + Neoform is also a neat line type, but I can't think of what 3 drops here unless you want Eternal Witness.

    The list as it is doesn't feel like its disruptive enough. FTW's list makes space for more control pieces. Thing in the Ice is neat af, tho I think these lists can't produce enough iterations to support this card. That said, it is a beat stick and a wipe, and the 0/4 dodges Lightning Bolt. Spellstutter Sprite is disruptive, instant speed. Cloud of Faeries is a faerie to increase the number of faeries.
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  3. #23

    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Well in that game the issue was I didn't have Shigeki, and the other tools were not efficient at digging for it (some variance because all copies were near bottom of library).

    In another game I had Shigeki but not Turtle. I could have used it to return a bunch of lands and Growth Spirals, but that's a lot of mana to not dig very deep. If I had access to Zenith, I always went for it, because it just converts mana into cards more efficiently.

    If you have more cards, you can easily make more mana. 1 Zenith would draw me into 3 untaps and/or another 1-2 Dictates.

    Edit: Spending that mana on flashback Forbidden Alchemy and friends is one option, but if I have 25+ mana floating, doing anything other than drawing 15+ cards seems bad. But I see why Grisly Salvage digs effectively.
    Hmm, I wonder if Salvage is the main source of this discrepancy. For what it's worth, if you assume a perfect game of land drops and Spiral effects, replacing one Spiral with a Salvage nearly doubles your odds of hitting the 7th land by turn 4 or 5. That's a very singular case and doesn't factor in the color strain, I'll try to get more games in when I can so I can take notes on some specific lines.

  4. #24
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    Hmm, I wonder if Salvage is the main source of this discrepancy. For what it's worth, if you assume a perfect game of land drops and Spiral effects, replacing one Spiral with a Salvage nearly doubles your odds of hitting the 7th land by turn 4 or 5. That's a very singular case and doesn't factor in the color strain, I'll try to get more games in when I can so I can take notes on some specific lines.
    Yeah, it could be just missing the Grisly Salvages. Putting Early Harvest + 1 channeler in graveyard and the other channeler in hand would help assemble the combo quickly. Otherwise it's very cumbersome to dig for all 4 pieces with regular cantrips. Hitting lands was easy enough. I consistently hit 6-8 basics early even with 20 lands in the deck (Ponder helps). It was just assembling all the combo pieces.

    If Salvage can be splashed with ~2 basic Swamp and 0 nonbasics, then it should be fine. Being all-basics was a huge advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    The bottleneck is still mana, because if you have enough you can just use dump a bunch of mana into Shigeki to get back lands and cantrips.
    I'm curious. If you think mana is the bottleneck, how much mana do you need normally?

    Imho if you have 24+ mana in the pool (1 Early Harvest + 1 Dictate), mana is not the bottleneck.

    If that is somehow not enough mana to dig or end the game, I would argue the issue isn't mana, it's a lack of tools to use the mana efficiently. Wish for Blue Sun's Zenith was my solution to that. Another option would be to run tutors to directly put the card in hand. Or to Wish for something that wins with 20-ish mana like Banefire. Some form of tutor may be better than just digging.

    Traverse the Ulvenwald could be good. It's a turn 1 play that fixes land. Then during the combo it finds either Turtle or Shigeki. In the instant speed version, maybe Worldly Tutor or Enlightened Tutor (Dictate or channel creatures).
    Last edited by FTW; 03-26-2023 at 05:36 PM.

  5. #25
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    If you want a sac input for Veteran Explorer, perhaps Neoform or Mask of the Mimic. I also think of Green Sun's Zenith and Lotus Cobra.

    The list as it is doesn't feel like its disruptive enough.
    I've been thinking more about the lack of turn 1 plays, lack of disruption, lack of tutors, and importance of black for Grisly Salvage. In comparison, the blue cards Growth Spiral and Joint Exploration were feeling lacklustre to me - any green Rampant Growth effect will also add +1 land to the battlefield either before or during the combo, and with better color selection!

    Another route could be to build GBu in a Nic Fit shell. Veteran Explorer + Cabal Therapy is the best Legacy engine to vomit basics onto the battlefield. It would give more turn 1 plays, more disruption, and pivot to black as a major color. Black offers Grisly Salvage and tutors.

    Potential mana ramp:
    Veteran Explorer
    Sakura-Tribe Elder
    Coiling Oracle
    Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    Potential card selection:
    Traverse the Ulvenwald
    Grisly Salvage
    Diabolic Intent
    Mastermind's Acquisition

    Potential Disruption:
    Cabal Therapy
    Thoughtseize
    Veil of Summer

    Core Combo:
    Early Harvest
    Dictate of Karametra
    Colossal Skyturtle
    Shigeki


    My UG list had Force for disruption. But in practice, the deck is so greedy on resources that pitching a blue card to Force is a big drawback. 1-for-1 disruption could be better.

    That's a very different direction than OP had, so I don't want to spend too much space on this. It's another potential way to build to set up an Early Harvest + Dictate mana engine and the Turtle+Shigeki loop.

  6. #26

    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Hmm. What I was meaning was that if you have that much mana, your resources should be able to get you there, but if the Salvages make that much difference then I recommend being more aggressive about playing Shigeki early.

  7. #27
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    Hmm. What I was meaning was that if you have that much mana, your resources should be able to get you there, but if the Salvages make that much difference then I recommend being more aggressive about playing Shigeki early.
    Do you ever get into trouble where they remove Shigeki and it disrupts you from being able to go off later? With Turtle you can recover from Lightning Bolt. But what about Swords to Plowshares/ Prismatic Ending? Or exposing it too early to Surgical Extraction or Pithing Needle?

    I tried Salvage. It made a huge difference.

    I tested out a sorcery speed GBu version.

    //Creatures: 15
    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    2 Shigeki, Jukai Visionary
    1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    3 Colossal Skyturtle
    1 Walking Ballista

    //Sorceries: 13
    4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Diabolic Intent

    //Instants: 8
    4 Grisly Salvage
    4 Early Harvest

    //Enchantments: 4
    3 Heartbeat of Spring
    1 Dictate of Karametra

    //Lands: 20
    4 Prismatic Vista
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Misty Rainforest
    5 Snow-Covered Forest
    5 Snow-Covered Swamp
    2 Snow-Covered Island

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Endurance
    3 Veil of Summer
    3 Force of Vigor
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
    1 Plague Engineer
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Carnage Tyrant
    1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze


    I'm much happier with this mana curve. More 1s and 2s, less at the top.

    In 6 test goldfishes:
    1) 8 basics on turn 3!! 10 on turn 4! Turn 5 infinite win with 2x discard
    2) 5 basics on turn 3, 7 on turn 5. Turn 5 infinite win with 2x discard
    3) Bad opener. Just 5 basics by turn 5, but turn 6 infinite win with 2x discard
    4) 7 basics on turn 4. Turn 5 infinite win with 1x discard
    5) 7 basics on turn 5. Turn 6 infinite win with 2x discard.
    6) Turn 4 win on 5 lands.

    Turn 5 is a bit slow for Legacy, but it is at least playing blockers and discard while doing so, and there are fair back-up plans.

    Traverse the Ulvenwald is very powerful here. Early it cycles into a basic land of your choice. Late it can tutor for Veteran Explorer, Skyturtle or Shigeki for 1 mana. After infinite mana it finds Walking Ballista without needing to draw the whole deck. Ballista also has some small utility coming down turn 2 to kill an X/1 or flashback Therapy. Delirium is supported by 6 cards types and self-mill. It wouldn't be hard to squeeze in a 7th card type with 1 copy of Grist, the Hunger Tide.

    Grisly Salvage does a lot of work. Goldfishing anyway. It also exposes you to earlier to grave hate.

    Sadly this deck is only viable in paper. It's soft-banned online by requiring so many clicks, and you can't do them too quickly in case you select the wrong targets or accidentally cast instead of Channel.
    Last edited by FTW; 03-26-2023 at 05:41 PM.

  8. #28

    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    The problem exists for all Tide variants I'm afraid, and things such as Four Horseman. It simply isn't possible to navigate in a digital format.

    Walking Ballista is always a solid wincon especially in a build that can grab creatures so readily and recur everything almost any time it wants.

    I'm genuinely surprised Salvage made that much difference, it always felt good when playing but I never figured it was that good lol.

    That sorcery version looks incredibly stout and explosive, I expect it would be about as solid as we currently know how to make it vs a generic field. BUG is also relatively easy to pull off since all 3 colors have some kind of dig or land effects to maintain the colors themselves.

    TtU seems like the best turn 1 play we have available, I use Consider for Modern (because Brainstorm and Turnabout are the only cards not Modern in my 75), but I doubt there are any instants that can compete with what is essentially a weaker turn 1 Salvage. I will keep looking but I doubt even any random free effects will be as useful

    Also if you stay in red because you're silly like me, Kolaghan's Command is a good alternate wincon which can protect against hate permanents, eat their hand, function as a Turtle for the combo, and kill x/2s.

  9. #29
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    I'm genuinely surprised Salvage made that much difference, it always felt good when playing but I never figured it was that good lol.
    It's even better in that version.

    You can do things like
    T1 Explorer. T2 Diabolic Intent -> get Forest + Swamp and hold priority -> Grisly Salvage getting Skyturtle, putting Early Harvest in graveyard -> Intent tutor for Shigeki or Heartbeat

    Or
    T2 EOT Grisly Salvage getting Veteran Explorer, putting Cabal Therapy into graveyard -> T3 Explorer+flashback Therapy -> get 2 lands -> Sakura-Tribe Elder -> Traverse for a creature & 6 lands on turn 3
    In the game I had 8 lands on turn 3 I think I had 2 Therapies in graveyard so I Traversed for another Veteran Explorer

    Those lines are just so much more explosive than I was getting with T2 Growth Spiral or Ice-Fang Coatl.

    Edit: Against heavy disruption it can also board out the combo and play like a fair Nic Fit ramping into big creatures
    -4 Harvest -3 Heartbeat -1 Dictate +8 fair cards (Endurance, Grist, Carnage Tyrant, etc)


    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    Also if you stay in red because you're silly like me, Kolaghan's Command is a good alternate wincon which can protect against hate permanents, eat their hand, function as a Turtle for the combo, and kill x/2s.
    I like that tech in red. Very versatile card for the instant speed version.
    Last edited by FTW; 03-27-2023 at 12:44 PM.

  10. #30

    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Legacy night again, did exactly as well as expected.

    Still on shocks for now, played 1 Kolaghan 1 Atarka and 22 lands.


    Round 1 vs Lands w/Narset et al

    Friend of mine I haven't seen in a while was playing Narsets and other Brainstorm hate, and it turns out that's kind of tricky to get around. Salvage helps a lot, non-combo loops to set up help a lot. Game 1 I kept a 1 lander because I don't know how Magic works, g2 I almost got there after Turtling back Dictate twice, but I was 1 mana short of Harvest. I made a couple plays I think I could have done differently, like dropping eot Dictate instead of spending 2-3 mana trying to dig for extra gas, but overall it was just a tense game of Magic and all else being equal my deck is made of bad cards. Ton of fun, got a little practice with sequencing and interaction moreso than other games.

    0-2 (0-1)

    Round 2 vs Delver aggro

    Game 1 was meh, not a slaughter but I wasn't going to win. Game 2 was close, I bought a turn and a half with a Turtle bounce, dropped Dictate eot, and got Forced. Clock was too fast to set up through hate. Delirium turning on the turn before K Command was up was relevant both games sadface. A discard/shock would have been game changing. I think if you play K-Command it might be best to bounce aggressively with Turtles, since you can bounce turn 2 and Command turn 3 to get Turtle back and kill a dude. Also made a couple minor color mistakes, assembling colors was fine but occasionally I would not leave up the right colors.

    I didn't have Endurances because I can't afford them yet, but they would have blown out both times, and easily could have been hardcast without disrupting me in most of my games all night.

    0-2 (0-2)

    Round 3 vs Monoblack Initiative/Helm

    Game 1 opp opens with Leyline, my hand is actually surprisingly ok for that although I am now exclusively on Turtle beats. But I have everything I need and there are no threats yet and oops they also just had the Helm in hand gg. Game 2 was another actual fight, and I had one misplay at the end that might have made a difference, but probably not; After K-command killed that 3/2 that steals your searches, I had a fetch I meant to crack while trying to dig for gas, but I forgot so after my Brainstorm drew me 3 lands I just put them back and then drew them again. But my hand was real sparse by then, it would've had to be like Harness or something to get me going.

    0-2 (0-3)

    Overall, the deck is "ok". I think with more experience piloting it my weeklies will be slightly less embarrassing, although if your list doesn't have answers to enchantments you may want to look into that lol. Channel was relevant a couple times, K-Command is a tiny tiny bit slow to hate against proactive decks, but is golden otherwise, full basics felt like it would've been much stronger because I ended up locked on Harvests a couple times with only 2-4 basics. If I'd had only basics each time I could even have used Harvest to set up early a couple times.

    Probably going to be taking this for a little while because it's one of two decks I have actually built lol, going to try to grab snows and Coatls at some point to test that.

  11. #31
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Thanks for posting your result!

    Do you think the Kolaghan and Atarka did enough to make those shocks worth it? If you cut down to 3 colors with black as a minor color (just for Grisly Salvage), then you can run all basics.

    Does your SB have ways to kill planeswalkers like Narset? The BUG version can combo off through Narset or Hullbreacher, just realized that. The instant version really relies on cantrips so it has to be able to kill prison pieces (Narset, Leyline, Deafening Silence, Trinisphere, Damping Sphere, Teferi, etc). Assassin's Trophy is a catch-all.

    It sounds like a couple times you stumbled getting Dictate removed. Sure, the deck can recur it with Turtle or Shigeki, but doing that and replaying Dictate costs so much mana and tempo. That's enough tempo for opponent to beat through and win before you recover. I think jamming Dictate and hoping to recur it over and over won't be a winning strategy. Because it's so much mana, you want the 1st one to stick. Would Veil of Summer or other protection effects help in those situations? Spend 1 more mana but then make sure the first copy survives.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    I think if you play K-Command it might be best to bounce aggressively with Turtles, since you can bounce turn 2 and Command turn 3 to get Turtle back and kill a dude.
    That would stall them, but then you're dumping all your mana and turns into disrupting instead of cantripping and playing extra lands, so does that slow down the clock too much? Ice Fang could be a better solution.


    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    although if your list doesn't have answers to enchantments you may want to look into that lol.
    That's why all my sideboards have multiple copies of Force of Vigor. You have to be able to answer Leyline. Game 1 vs Helm combo they get you, but most decks don't have maindeck Leyline.

  12. #32

    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Ice Fang is definitely a good solution, and the snow build is going to be the next one I pick up. I also would like to try 4 Subtlety in the sideboard, being hardcastable sometimes is really good but other than that I'm not sure.

    The Forces were bad sideboarding on my part, I had two Veils in the board and just didn't remember them because I was trying to think about Narset and the treasure making one. I also would have had the other 2 and some Force of Negations but that costs money. Recurring Dictate didn't feel too bad, at the very least it feels like a better baseline resilience than other combo I'm used to. They also have proactives like discard, but once the Force of Will happens, that's just going to be it no matter what your combo is, aside from the moments of glory where you have the absolute cheese. Still, I would much rather remember to bring in my sideboard cards next time lol.

    Might try -1 Joint Exploration +1 Alchemy, because Salvage really is just a draw 5 and Alchemy is right behind it and also plays with the yard itself. The land drops are pretty valuable, so I'll have to try it out and see if mill 4 take 1 is better than seeing 3 deep and getting a land. My gut says very probably.

    My early sideboard had Trophy and I swapped it for Abrupt Decay, so seeing Leyline killed me inside. It also felt like the most unplayable hate piece I'd seen yet; Narset was annoying, but didn't affect Salvage or Shigeki channel, only slowed down Spirals, and I could see a lot of ways out if I got a little lucky. Leyline was absolute. Salvage is dead. Turtle and Shigeki are dead. My only real hope was to use Harvest to power out early Turtles, and that was a really long ways off against Helm Leyline.

    I really really want to try the full basic base, I just need to pick up 4 Vistas. I'm going to be really wild and see if I can support all 4 colors in basics first, because I've never felt all that troubled by assembling colors so far. Kolaghan's Command is wicked good, almost always a 2-for-1 and doing literally everything we need all at once. It's even an extra Turtle for Shigeki. Atarka's Command is mostly only useful as a super techy wincon that maindeck slides under almost everything, the land drop like... happens, but not being Spiral makes me sad. So as Spiral 9+free-include wincon, I've mostly been at "no reason to take it out". It is a flex slot I've been playing with though. It's also a little better with Endurance out of the board. I have actually used the +1/+1 to kill a construct.

    I also meant to be on 23 lands, so I'm going to try to find that spot again because 22 felt like just barely enough and I'd like a little more comfort room.

  13. #33
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Just curious. Do you play combo in Modern more than in Legacy? Do you play other formats more than Legacy in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    I also would like to try 4 Subtlety in the sideboard, being hardcastable sometimes is really good but other than that I'm not sure.
    I wouldn't waste money on Subtlety. They can replay the creature next turn. It's only Legacy-playable in decks with very narrow requirements, and this doesn't meet them. The card disadvantage is a big cost. Something like Brazen Borrower or Ice-Fang Coatl costs you less resources to still stall 1 threat. Assassin's Trophy can kill creatures too.


    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    so seeing Leyline killed me inside. It also felt like the most unplayable hate piece I'd seen yet
    Leyline of the Void is very commonly played due to all the graveyard-using decks in Legacy. Every graveyard-based Legacy combo deck needs at least 4 SB answers to Leyline. Most decks don't maindeck it, though it is a very common sideboard card. Monoblack Helm combo is the one deck that does maindeck it. Part of why that deck is viable is it picks up free wins from having Leyline in game 1.

    Force of Vigor and Assassin's Trophy are probably the best answers for your build. Boseiju, Who Endures is an uncounterable option. Note that they kill Leyline while also killing other important hate.


    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    but once the Force of Will happens, that's just going to be it no matter what your combo is, aside from the moments of glory where you have the absolute cheese.
    Most Legacy combos are designed to win even if opponent has Force of Will. Half the format is playing Force of Will. If your plan is to hope they just don't have Force, that's going to cost a lot of games. Instead, most combo decks are built to consistently get through 1 Force. If opponent has something like 2x Force of Will + Flusterstorm, then yes, they win. But you want to make them have that much.

    Veil of Summer counters Force of Will for 1 mana + draws a card. Add some Veils and you can get through 1 Force.


    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    Recurring Dictate didn't feel too bad, at the very least it feels like a better baseline resilience than other combo I'm used to.
    Are you sure? Because you got raced in those games. Losing 8 mana to re-deploy (Dictate cast + Turtle) is part of how they race you. Many Legacy decks are looking to see where they can make you waste the most mana (making you replay Dictate is an easy target) so they steal the tempo to kill you or dig into a 2nd Force before you can go off. Then they don't care if you can recur it. They either kill you first or have another answer ready. If you can protect Dictate with less than 8 mana, that's more resilient.

    For example, Veil of Summer answers Force on Dictate for 1 mana instead of 8 mana. Then you can go off faster.

    Good luck with the new build.

  14. #34

    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    I mostly play Legacy and Vintage, mostly combo. I've tried a lot of control variants but I'm not good at navigating them, and I've only had a few inspirations for aggro decks, usually very niche tempo or combo-aggro. Always had a soft spot for Tidehollow Sculler.

    Sorry, I think you misunderstood my Leyline comment. Most unplayable for me. Most impossible to play through compared to other hate. I agree swapping my Decays back out for FoV or Trophy would definitely be better.

    I also agree Veil is much better than a recursion plan. I just meant that a recursion plan is better than just having to topdeck new pieces again. Once I get my other two Veils I'll remember to side them in I promise 🙃 The main reason I didn't feel too bad is I had the full 8 mana up each time and some vague gas in my hand, so I was more confident that I could push through it. K-command helped a lot too, it was extra slow having to get Turtle back first, but it killed a 3/2 with a draw hate effect on the way out so it also bought a little time. If you didn't already have enough mana I could definitely see this line being a disaster waiting to happen.

  15. #35
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Do you ever get into trouble where they remove Shigeki and it disrupts you from being able to go off later? With Turtle you can recover from Lightning Bolt. But what about Swords to Plowshares/ Prismatic Ending? Or exposing it too early to Surgical Extraction or Pithing Needle?

    I tried Salvage. It made a huge difference.

    I tested out a sorcery speed GBu version.

    //Creatures: 15
    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    2 Shigeki, Jukai Visionary
    1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    3 Colossal Skyturtle
    1 Walking Ballista

    //Sorceries: 13
    4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Diabolic Intent

    //Instants: 8
    4 Grisly Salvage
    4 Early Harvest

    //Enchantments: 4
    3 Heartbeat of Spring
    1 Dictate of Karametra

    //Lands: 20
    4 Prismatic Vista
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Misty Rainforest
    5 Snow-Covered Forest
    5 Snow-Covered Swamp
    2 Snow-Covered Island

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Endurance
    3 Veil of Summer
    3 Force of Vigor
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
    1 Plague Engineer
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Carnage Tyrant
    1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze


    I'm much happier with this mana curve. More 1s and 2s, less at the top.

    In 6 test goldfishes:
    1) 8 basics on turn 3!! 10 on turn 4! Turn 5 infinite win with 2x discard
    2) 5 basics on turn 3, 7 on turn 5. Turn 5 infinite win with 2x discard
    3) Bad opener. Just 5 basics by turn 5, but turn 6 infinite win with 2x discard
    4) 7 basics on turn 4. Turn 5 infinite win with 1x discard
    5) 7 basics on turn 5. Turn 6 infinite win with 2x discard.
    6) Turn 4 win on 5 lands.

    Turn 5 is a bit slow for Legacy, but it is at least playing blockers and discard while doing so, and there are fair back-up plans.

    Traverse the Ulvenwald is very powerful here. Early it cycles into a basic land of your choice. Late it can tutor for Veteran Explorer, Skyturtle or Shigeki for 1 mana. After infinite mana it finds Walking Ballista without needing to draw the whole deck. Ballista also has some small utility coming down turn 2 to kill an X/1 or flashback Therapy. Delirium is supported by 6 cards types and self-mill. It wouldn't be hard to squeeze in a 7th card type with 1 copy of Grist, the Hunger Tide.

    Grisly Salvage does a lot of work. Goldfishing anyway. It also exposes you to earlier to grave hate.

    Sadly this deck is only viable in paper. It's soft-banned online by requiring so many clicks, and you can't do them too quickly in case you select the wrong targets or accidentally cast instead of Channel.
    If you're in GBu, Opposition Agent has synergy with Veteran Explorer, in particular if you have a way to play the basics you deny the opponent. Exploration is a solid 1 drop that you won't mind seeing in multiples if the land search could snowball.

    Intuition and Eternal Witness + Unearth seems good. perhaps some of this tech would fit better into an old BUG Intuition control shell. Similar to the trick where you can Unearth Eternal Witness and return Unearth to hand, Traverse (delirium) can find Eternal Witness, cast Eternal Witness, return Traverse. All the mana ramp makes adding Ewit to the line much easier.

    Deadly Brew is a neat one. It can closed loop each turn with available mana for GB + 1GG with 2 Eternal Witness or Skullwinder. I want to say Stitcher's Supplier could be paired with Veteran Explorer for more 1mv lines and opening lines. It can bin Uro, Therapy, and make much available to Shigeki or Ewit. Also, the mill supports more maindeck Traverse.

    How about Rofellos's Gift? It can return each of the enchantment creatures, perhaps as a 1'of for an Intuition pile. I think more enchantments like Urza's Saga, Exploration will be ideal for supporting it on other lines though. The enchantment creatures can be discarded early to maximize the number of cards in hand before casting Rofellos's Gift, maybe Careful Study unless there's a better one.
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  16. #36

    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Wasn't able to get to Legacy last week, but did this week. Had a fantastic showing of not picking up a single game, although only a couple games and no matches were blowouts.

    Narset is horribly annoying in G1s. She doesn't stop you, but she slows you down so much if you aren't ready to play around her. Playing around her once you know isn't too hard; Salvage and Alchemy go around, EOT Spiral is still good, and Turtle/Shigeki can recur things so you don't have to try to draw into new ones.

    But she's still a pain, and I only had a single Abrupt Decay in my sideboard. No Trophies, no Endurances for attacking. Teferi basically doesn't exist because you can just go off on your turn. None of the combo requires instant speed actions, and channel even gets around it as well.

    Got stuck on 4 lands in a couple games, but I was on 21 lands and I think at least 22 are needed; once I can get Vistas I'm going to rearrange things to have 23.

    Turtle bouncing a construct under Defense Grid was fun. Kolaghan's Command being an amazing card was relevant a few times. Noxious Revival was extremely relevant, but not quite enough; stalled a Breakfast player for a couple turns when he saw it in my hand.

    Been working on math for lines: 2x Harvest can win on 6 lands without Dictate out. 2x Harvest+Dictate can win immediately on 5 lands, or Harvest-->Dictate eot and win on your turn with 4 lands. 2x Dictate wins with basically any cards that aren't air, obviously. Teachings for Harness Infinity is an excellent line because it gives a single card which lets you complete the combo no matter how much you're missing, as long as your yard has a little bit of gas in it.

    Can't remember if it's been mentioned before, but Pact of Negation is a great inclusion, for any build since paying 4 is relatively easy, but especially for instant speed builds since there is the potential to just win with the trigger on the stack (or even begin comboing off and then just pay for it and continue, if you feel cheeky).

  17. #37
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    Re: [Deck] Low Tide

    Glad you got to try it out again!

    How close did you get to going off in those games?

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    Narset is horribly annoying in G1s. She doesn't stop you, but she slows you down so much if you aren't ready to play around her. Playing around her once you know isn't too hard; Salvage and Alchemy go around, EOT Spiral is still good, and Turtle/Shigeki can recur things so you don't have to try to draw into new ones.

    But she's still a pain, and I only had a single Abrupt Decay in my sideboard. No Trophies, no Endurances for attacking. Teferi basically doesn't exist because you can just go off on your turn. None of the combo requires instant speed actions, and channel even gets around it as well.
    Your build is hurt a lot more by Narset than mine, so you probably need at least 3 Trophies in the SB. I think you need Trophy instead of Decay, due to possible Leyline of the Void. Otherwise you would need to be on both Decays + Force of Vigor (because Force doesn't kill Narset/Hullbreacher, and Decay doesn't kill Leyline), and that consumes more SB space.


    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    Got stuck on 4 lands in a couple games, but I was on 21 lands and I think at least 22 are needed; once I can get Vistas I'm going to rearrange things to have 23.
    I had that frustration sometimes in the instant speed builds. You can have a bunch of Joint Exploration and Growth Spiral in hand, but if they just draw you into more cantrips or redundant pieces (bad luck) then you miss using the land drop and don't actually ramp. I found adding Ponder and more fetches helped (better sculpting), but that takes you away from instant-only. Maybe you need a higher land count.

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