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Thread: Paint Nought

  1. #1
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    Paint Nought

    Had this idea in my head for a while and finally snagged a set of sagas to build it.

    4 Esper sentinel
    1 Phyrexian dreadnought
    4 hushbringer
    4 patchwork automaton
    4 Oswald fiddlebender
    4 ingenious smith
    3 painterís servant
    2 grindstone

    4 march of otherworldly light
    1 torpor orb
    1 soul-guide lantern
    1 shadowspear
    1 portable hole
    1 hope of ghirapur
    1 haywire mite
    1 ethersworn canonist

    3 mox opal
    4 Urzaís saga
    1 karakas
    2 eiganjo, seat of the empire
    1 darksteel citadel
    4 ancient den
    8 snow-covered plains


    Sideboard
    2 Hannaís custody
    1 currency converter
    3 deafening silence
    2 stoneforge mystic
    1 abolish
    1 lion sash
    1 kaldra compleat
    1 sorcerous spyglass
    2 swords to plowshares
    1 teshar, ancestorís apostle


    So as a quick gloss over, itís meant to be an aggro deck with 2 ďgrow creaturesĒ. And since we can aim deck some generic hate we get some quick lines to dreadnought which is really still the same attack plan. Thatís where the beauty of the painter plan shines. Itís a way to win without the combat step then can happen equally fast out of the blue. March works extra nice with painter and gives a strong main deck answer to a lot. Also have access to a saga package to help give some options game 1. Sideboard is still up in the air. I did want to be cute with reverent mantra, and will probably have Hannaís custody in some number.

    For something that stemmed from my desire to revisit the mighty quinn I am quite happy with how this turned out. There are even some cute plays with karakas and hope. Feels powerful in gold fishing and Iím aiming to take this to our next legacy event. Will update around that event. Enjoy!
    Last edited by Weapon X; 03-28-2023 at 06:55 PM.
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  2. #2

    Re: Paint Nought

    https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...ess-Card-Monte
    Poster Daniel Worobec (in addition to myself) Have seen the saga -> dreadnought/grindstone interaction and have been looking into it. I don't know what is the best way to marry the dreadnoughts with the painters but I do, firmly believe one of the missing pieces is chalice, and cavern of souls.

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    Re: Paint Nought

    I like this plan.

    There's normally anti-synergy combining Painter and Nought (combat step vs mill, non-overlapping pieces) but I like how you tied them together here. You have few copies of the most situational cards (Nought, Grindstone), tutoring them with Saga. No multiple copies of Torpor Orb. If you assemble the wrong artifact pieces, at least they all advance the grow plan.

    Since you don't need your own grave, is Relic better than Soul-Guide? Relic slowly eating away is relevant vs DRC, Murktide, Uro, etc.

    Does this deck want Mother of Ruins to protect all the creature pieces? (E.g. so Dreadnought doesn't get 2-for-1d with Bolt on Hushbringer)

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    Re: Paint Nought

    I wasnít convinced on mother especially when Hannaís custody exists. As for the graveyard I had plans for Teshar in the 75 somewhere, as again he can turn on otherwise dead cards. The real thing Iíve been struggling with is how ďcuteĒ to get. Like hope and karakas is great for the grow plan, even bouncing as Oswald can make karakas add 2 for a march. Itís been gold fishing well so far with some Oops I hit a combo moments. Thatís a kind of pressure I like.

    @dogs: just looking at what youíre trying to do feels very clunky. Youíre trying to make a shell of awkward and then make a deck. This approach was make a deck and see if things can slot in and improve it, and it works. I donít see a need for chalice with my build; itís just classic aggro with a combo.
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    The real thing Iíve been struggling with is how ďcuteĒ to get. Like hope and karakas is great for the grow plan, even bouncing as Oswald can make karakas add 2 for a march. Itís been gold fishing well so far with some Oops I hit a combo moments. Thatís a kind of pressure I like.
    The Hope + Karakas trick looks good. But is the 3rd Karakas too cute?

    Do you have enough 0s for Oswald to effectively tutor for that toolbox of 1s? 4th Mox Opal seems good.

    What does your SB look like? Any Swords to Plowshares? You've got Marit Lage covered between Karakas and March, but your maindeck can't answer a big Murktide Regent (which also flies over all your ground fatties).
    Edit: Dispatch is an option but could be too cute.

    You could run Nettlecyst for more beatdown. It's tutorable with Oswald sometimes. It also makes Esper Sentinel dumb in the late game and equips well with Hushbringer.

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    Re: Paint Nought

    Thatís been the real tricky part, what to do with the board. Immediately I was thinking Urzaís targets that I wonít main deckÖ but thatís really just design process more then anything. I liked the idea of adding stoneforge and another equipment since that just adds to the main beatdown plan. Realistically itís dreadnought stuff thatís most likely to get cut so that opens a lot of main deck space. Councils judgement is always on my radar as removal seems to be the most needed. Itís also why Iím opting to main deck the most generic one.

    I have 2 weeks to sort out this puzzle before I play it.
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Doing some research into cardsÖ may have a sideboard dialed in with some minor deck updates. Iíll add proposed board to the main and probably just have an updated list in another post as I like to track changes as information is gathered.

    Edit: just cut 2 karakas for eiganjo so the main post reflects that. As far as sideboard goes Iím also curious about a few main options: leyline, aether vial, orimís chant, and pithing needle. I suspect storm and combo in general will be bad so Iím undecided if I should try to race with my own or try to hate and keep beating. That will dictate a lot of choices I think. The other main concern would be chalice of the void seeing as the deck is effectively only cmc 2. Already have answers to it, but should I really worry about it?
    Last edited by Weapon X; 03-28-2023 at 07:27 PM.
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Some sideboard ideas...

    For SB be prepared to face cards like Meltdown and Force of Vigor. Hanna's Custody sort-of protects against Force of Vigor, but they can Force before Hanna comes down (0cmc), Force in response to Hanna, or use Force to kill Hanna (best case scenario since they can't hit an artifact too). Hanna doesn't protect against Meltdown, Energy Flux, Serenity, Kataki, War's Wage, Seeds of Innocence, Blast Zone, Powder Keg, or Collector Ouphe though. Reverent Mantra has the same problem. It just protects against Force of Vigor and spot removal, but misses the mass artifact hate that the format already runs to fight artifact decks. Hanna at least protects against Boseiju, Who Endures, while Reverent Mantra can't even protect against colorless lands. 1 copy of Hanna seems fine, but you might want to hedge with another plan to beat artifact hate.

    You could try to protect your board with mass-indestructible effects or graveyard recursion. Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle could work, though it may be hard to cast and slow to use if they destroy your artifact mana at the same time as everything else. Second Sunrise could be an option, if you have mana up that turn. Grand Crescendo seems to be the cheapest mass-indestructible effect (most are 3 cmc) and isn't completely dead as a topdeck (big bonus).

    Also be prepared to have your artifact-heavy mana attacked. Blood Moon, Collector Ouphe, etc. 4x March already helps answer all of them, even if they catch you tapped out. Bonus!

    Fast combo could race you. You can very easily board into more Ethersworn Canonist. 1 Pithing Needle is an easy include with your tutor engines.
    Edit: Chant is interesting. It could work, especially if you're worried about Canonist being too slow. Decks like TES are usually stone cold to Chant. ANT can fight with discard, but that gives you time to try to reach Canonist or race.

    Unsure about more Torpor Orbs. Turn 2 Orb on the draw could be too late to stop Initiative decks, so boarding into copies 6-8 of the same effect may not help the scenarios your maindeck isn't already winning. Maybe your better line is to board into more removal, just remove their creature, and attack back with more threats than they can remove. You're aggro. That should be viable.

    Edit2: You definitely want answers to Chalice, but your maindeck already has 4x March so you're in a good position to start. Getting raced by combo, Initiative or Murktide seem like the bigger risks. Or surviving artifact hate.

    Edit3: Just noticed Hushbringer shuts off Ingenious Smith's grow ability too. Just be careful of that interaction in games. It might affect sequencing choices.

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    Re: Paint Nought

    That does seem like the smart route, more removal. Even mantra was just another cute idea because of painter. Granted to hit it one time would make it worthwhile to me :p

    Chants I feel are overpowered and underused, it was why I loved Quinn, and a big part of my parfait list.

    I donít think I would want more torpor orbs as I suspect they will be a package that will get trimmed post board if combo is essential.

    Teshar is my idea to combat mass artifact removal and feels strong with how the shell looks so far.

    Second sunrise was also on my radar. I think if I had more cantrip baubles that would make it a stronger choice. Having it be reactive and proactive could move it up on the list, probably an eggs oriented shell.

    I donít feel to concerned about land hate. The deck has a low cmc and plays a lot of basics. I want to cut utility lands for more basics as it is but that feels wrong.
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Good points on all counts.

    Looking at the sideboard you recently added above:
    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    Sideboard
    [CARDS]2 Hannaís custody
    1 currency converter
    3 deafening silence
    2 stoneforge mystic
    1 abolish
    1 lion sash
    1 kaldra compleat
    1 sorcerous spyglass
    2 swords to plowshares
    1 teshar, ancestorís apostle
    SB Swords looks good. Maybe even 3-4 copies. Removal + racing seems like your best plan vs Murktide and Initiative. Depending on how aggro you are, maybe you even want Path to Exile instead?

    To make room for enough slots against combo and artifact hate, maybe there isn't space for cute stuff. I think there's no room for Stoneforge. At 2 copies it's inconsistent, it only works if you board out the Hushbringers + Dreadnought part, and the package eats up a lot of SB space. Same for Currency Converter. As much as I love that card, it's more of a grindy control card than an aggro card, and has no synergy with the deck engines. You already have enough Saga targets. Cutting those frees up some room.

    Then you have room for grave hate. Tormod's Crypt has the most synergy with your deck (aggro grow, fast Metalcraft, Oswald fodder). Crypts + Soul-Guide + 1 Lion Sash?

    Pithing Needle seems better than Spyglass, because you can tutor it more easily.

    Instead of Abolish... Disenchant or Council's Judgment? When would you need the discard a Plains mode? Maybe you don't need this slot. If you board in Swords, you can save March to answer most artifacts and enchantments.

    Another option for combo is to play 1-2 Enlightened Tutor in the board. It's bad in fair games but really boosts consistency of seeing hate vs combo. Then you can trim down on redundant copies (1 Deafening Silence, 1 Tormod's Crypt) and rely on the tutors to help fix them, while they also help assemble your game-winning combos. That may save you SB space too.

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    Re: Paint Nought

    I have to admit the stoneforge may be on the cute side. It could probably be cut. Itís just hard making those calls without the pressure cooker that are the actual games. I think I may still end up with one as of right now, but as I get matchups in that may change. Realistically they could be enlightened tutors, but Iíll most likely make as broad a board as I can just to cover my bases and see where holes arise.

    I kind of want to main the lion over soul guide, but the game 1 tutor potential suggests that is most likely the wrong call. Plus I like the cantrip artifacts. Drawing cards isnít something white does a lot, itís actually why I want currency converter.

    My spyglass reasoning is mainly because of the peek. Info for combo is great so I would need to weight info vs tutoring most likely.

    I chose abolish mainly because of the cmc. The free may come up but ways around chalice seem good especially when my party is 2. Could be councilís judgement instead if planes walkers become a real issue.
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  12. #12

    Re: Paint Nought

    This deck isn't designed around Ratchet, Field Medic but I think 1 or 2 would still be very strong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

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    Re: Paint Nought

    I feel like ratchet is trying to do what Teshar does and not as easily.
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    Re: Paint Nought

    I think you would really like Tameshi, Reality Architect. Bounce a land, enter Urza's Saga. This could be ideal for playing through Wastelands. It can enter Dreadnought, Tormod's Crypt, etc. It can enter Esper Sentinel as well is good against Delver's burn. Bouncing the land is +1 draw each turn, or better if you want to play more bounce effects for the opponent's side of the turn cycle. Bounce forces opponent on Regent and Delver to play fair magic, tho this won't also trigger Tameshi..

    worth noting, Tameshi can make an absurd amount of mana with LED, or Lotus Bloom, if you have a tutor from a non-hand zone. There doesn't seem to be much reason to play LED in this list but Urza's Saga can find it.

    Tameshi could be a comparable with Emry, when Tameshi can also enter enchantments like Deafening Silence.
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Now thatís interesting. I think itís important to nail down a mono colour list first however. Down the road adding a colour can help fill in holes but I need mono to show where those holes are.

    That said, still an interesting potential card. On the radar now!
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Sideboard update

    2 deafening silence
    1 enlightened tutor
    1 loran of the third path
    1 lion sash
    1 haywire mite
    1 hex parasite
    1 heliodís intervention
    1 Phyrexian revoker
    1 aether vial
    2 swords to plowshares
    2 silence
    1 kaldra compleat


    The odd part is that I think kaldra may have to go. I donít think it will ever be cast without stoneforge. And I think I should main a hex parasite. It will let me control sagas and kill planeswalkers. With that on my mind I think the main could be tweaked a little more. I feel like the direction is aggro as was intended. Keep beating, threaten a combo, and just hate on the opponents plan.
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    Re: Paint Nought

    I assumed Kaldra was part of the Stoneforge package and would be cut if Stoneforge was cut. It's unplayable without Stoneforge. That slot could be a 3rd Swords maybe?

    Should Hex Parasite take the maindeck slot of Haywire Mite? You already have 4x March to kill enchantments and artifacts in game 1. How badly do you need Mite in game 1 too, especially with 1 in the SB?

    I think you won't need both Heliod's Intervention & Loran either. Loran + Haymire Mite should be enough. Maindeck already has 4x March to disenchant things like Chalice (X dodges Chalice). 7 disenchants is overkill (8 if you have 2 mites?). If you count March as creature removal and worry about not having enough Disenchants, just bring in Swords. Using Swords on creatures frees up March to disenchant. 3rd copy of Swords seems better than 7th disenchant.

    In what matchups would you board in Aether Vial? Saga into Vial seems way too slow. If you're using it to resolve creatures vs slow blue, do you even need it? Saga already punishes blue by making 2 Constructs. Making 2 Constructs and then tutoring into anything card-positive should leave you in a good position. That slot could go to Teshar or other recursion to fight artifact hate (that's how blue decks will try to get you anyway, not by Forcing a bear).
    Last edited by FTW; 03-30-2023 at 04:00 AM.

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    Re: Paint Nought

    Youíre not wrong. Iím appreciating that making a sideboard is helping to shape the deck. I think I still want to shave a mana source in the main as I have pondered a sol land in the board but I also donít think theyíre good enough here. Teshar does feel like the vial replacement.
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Deck looks tight.

    Do you have enough grave hate though? Maybe shave 1 Chant for 1 Tormod's Crypt or Grafdigger's Cage.

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