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Thread: Paint Nought

  1. #21
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    Re: Paint Nought

    2 feels like enough, at least locally anyway. Chant just always feels good. I kind of want to go to 4.

    And thanks for helping me to get past the silly ideas. I usually stick to them a lot longer when I clearly shouldnít.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Starting to ponder one change; namely swap a few lands for wasteland and add a crucible. To be fair the reason I didnít do this is because I think itís possible to win fast so itís unnecessary to play mana denial. And to further that, I think more darksteel citadels would probably add more then wasteland does.

    Thoughts?
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  3. #23
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    Starting to ponder one change; namely swap a few lands for wasteland and add a crucible. To be fair the reason I didnít do this is because I think itís possible to win fast so itís unnecessary to play mana denial. And to further that, I think more darksteel citadels would probably add more then wasteland does.

    Thoughts?
    Karn exists so you don't have to play dead cards (Crucible) in the main. The best backup plan for yolo-wishing Liquimetal is nuking basics with March.

    This has been discussed extensively in the parfait thread. The tldr is that if you're playing legacy and you want Crucible, put it in the board and main Karn. The only exception is you want a different card name for Loam b/c your deck is called RG Lands.

  4. #24
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Itís not dead here in the main though. Half of the lands are already dead to themselves or to chain with Oswald. Youíve really lost me with your comments otherwise.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    Itís not dead here in the main though. Half of the lands are already dead to themselves or to chain with Oswald. Youíve really lost me with your comments otherwise.
    So here's how this goes:
    1-you cast Crucible in 3rd mana and lose your turn (land drop already burned). Either you got Dazed or gg'd by Ending.
    2-you wait another turn, but leave a land drop open. You again lose to Daze, but you beat Ending b/c you got something out of your card before it got hit an otherwise clean 1-for-1.
    3-you say "but not every deck plays Daze or Ending" and you lose b/c Crucible really doesn't have text against the decks that lack these cards: artifact-based c-c-c-combo.

    So if you're going to lose to Daze, play the card which doubly-beats Ending (ensures value and also outside the range of most Ending decks which stop at 3 colors) and also hits artifact combo - including: the mirror.

    Also Karn wish Liquimetal and care not at all if they kill Karn b/c coated basics die to March. You wanted mana kill? This is how you do it competitively.

    Another card that is almost always strictly more-winning than Crucible is Sevinne's Reclamation. Pretty much the same value without walking into the 1-for-1. However, the issue Sevinne's runs into is that, like Crucible, it doesn't add control (Karn passive does).

    The problem of decks like this is walking into really bad scenarios without effects that circumvent these bad things from happening to you. Adding variance (aka dead topdecks aka Crucible) b/c you can "go big" really only works if you're actually going big. Unlike RG Lands, you can't combo Crucible into Exploration effects.

  6. #26
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    Starting to ponder one change; namely swap a few lands for wasteland and add a crucible. To be fair the reason I didnít do this is because I think itís possible to win fast so itís unnecessary to play mana denial. And to further that, I think more darksteel citadels would probably add more then wasteland does.

    Thoughts?
    What lands would you swap?

    Plains/Den? Bad idea. You need a minimum number of white sources to reliably cast your cards.

    Wasteland fights for colorless slots. But Saga and Darksteel have more synergy with your deck. There's no room for Wasteland.

    Either Karn or Crucible seem like a bad idea here. You're a low-land aggro deck. Crucible+Waste isn't really where you want to be. That would fit a more controlling deck or a more taxing deck (Thalia, etc). Karn could be good with the Painter combo side, but do you have the mana to cast it? Ancient Tomb would take you in a different direction.

  7. #27
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    Re: Paint Nought

    @fox Why are you casting it? The whole idea is that Oswald would find it if needed. A point you seem to be ignoring.

    @ftw Karn isnít even a consideration here. Even crucible is more that I think Iíd like 1 cmc 3 artifact just because of the excess of 2 drops for Oswald. By no means do I think this necessary to do, but I am curious if it can open up another avenue for the deck. Wasteland/crucible being the first to come to mind. I think plains, opal, and darkstee were my first thoughts, but not convinced itís worth it. But as a thought experiment I do think there could be value ina 3 cmc artifact.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Ah I see the purpose now.

    I think Plains and Opal are both too important to cut. Both tap for W and help cast that turn 1 Esper Sentinel. Opal accelerates you and is a 0 for Oswald. Opal is your only green source for Haywire Mite. High Plains count gives you resilience against Blood Moon or Collector Ouphe turning off your mana. Darksteel is the safest cut for mana stability, but being indestructible and an artifact has higher synergy with your deck than Wasteland, so Darksteel seems better. You're not a Thalia deck. I think you don't need Wasteland.

    The first 3 I'd consider is Nettlecyst. More X/X beatdown that also turns your extra bears into X/X beatdown. That's a 3 that will help when you're flooded on mana or flooded on 2s without attack power.

  9. #29
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    Re: Paint Nought

    You know what, I actually really like that. I get flooded sometimes goldfishing and it feels so bad; in part thatís why I wanted to cut a land. I wasnít even thinking about nettlecyst, but that feels like the one of I want.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Pulling the pin on itÖ I cut a hushbringer and the darksteel citadel for a nettlecyst and darkmoss bridge.

    Sadly I wonít get to play it this weekend as the tournament has moved due to Easter.
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  11. #31
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Winner winner chicken dinner! The delayed tournament finally happened and I ended up second due to my first round draw.

    The aggro/construct game was very much the main victory plan throughout the night. That said I did have dreadnought and painter wins as well. Getting some painter shenanigans were probably the highlights for me. Almost got to try hex parasite with saga. Sadly it only shrunk a murktide regent. Biggest minus was the draw; should have had a nought swinging for lethal on turn 5 but I mixed up turn numbers.

    Tl;dr This deck is the real deal. Would like to see it gain at least one more way to draw cards. When I drew duds those games got long, when I drew gas they end fast.
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  12. #32
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    Winner winner chicken dinner! The delayed tournament finally happened and I ended up second due to my first round draw.
    Great result! Congrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    The aggro/construct game was very much the main victory plan throughout the night. That said I did have dreadnought and painter wins as well. Getting some painter shenanigans were probably the highlights for me. Almost got to try hex parasite with saga. Sadly it only shrunk a murktide regent. Biggest minus was the draw; should have had a nought swinging for lethal on turn 5 but I mixed up turn numbers.

    How good did you find the Dreadnought side?

    A while back I tested a version that cut the Dreadnought package for more X/X beatdown. I found the aggro plan was overperforming, while Hushbringer on its own can be underwhelming in many matchups. It also bugged me that casting Hushbringer meant spending 2 mana on a non-artifact that didn't trigger anything else. The X/Xs often got to 9/9 or 10/10, almost Dreadnought-sized without a 2-card combo. 4 Saga + 4 Nettlecyst is a lot of X/Xs. So I tried a version cutting the Dreadnought package to go up to 4 Nettlecyst.

    This is what I tested.

    //Creatures: 27
    4 Esper Sentinel
    1 Hex Parasite
    4 Ingenious Smith
    4 Patchwork Automaton
    4 Oswald Fiddlebender
    3 Painter's Servant
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Nettlecyst

    //Spells: 4
    4 March of Otherworldly Light

    //Artifacts: 7
    2 Grindstone
    2 Portable Hole
    1 Retrofitter Foundry
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern

    //Mana: 22
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Urza's Saga
    4 Ancient Den
    7 Plains
    1 Karakas
    1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
    1 Darksteel Citadel

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Haywire Mite
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Lion Sash
    1 Torpor Orb
    1 Hanna's Custody
    1 Loran of the Third Path


    I didn't post it earlier because it's no longer "Paint Nought". But it preserves most of the deck plan. Now with WPA banned, maybe you won't miss Hushbringer? It depends if your meta is still full of Initiative and Cephalid Breakfast, or if they're on other things like Delver, Shadow and combo.

    I also went up to 3 maindeck Canonist and 2 Portable Hole to improve the interaction with faster decks in Game 1. Canonist's asymmetry is very strong in many matchups. Oswald can turn a redundant Canonist/Painter into Nettlecyst.

    Retrofitter gave me an "aggro" target for Saga when I just wanted more bodies than they have answers. Creating tokens triggers Ingenious Smith! (but not Patchwork Automaton) Tokens can sacrifice to Oswald or be equipped by Nettlecyst.

    Between Retrofitter and more Nettlecysts, it gave more mana sinks to help when you flood and run out of gas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    Tl;dr This deck is the real deal. Would like to see it gain at least one more way to draw cards. When I drew duds those games got long, when I drew gas they end fast.
    Unfortunately card draw can still be an issue. I thought about blue splash for
    Thought Monitor
    Emry, Lurker of the Loch
    Razortide Bridge
    However that really changes the direction of the deck. I didn't see a good answer in mono W.

  13. #33
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    Re: Paint Nought

    I found the small dreadnought package to be enough. Sometimes it just immediately triples your damage output. Othertimes the rest of the package was providing some random hate. It honestly felt like the right amount of cards. The original 4 hushbringer was too many, but 3 and orb feels perfect. The incidental life gain from hushbringer proved to be helpful at times. So all that said I think 3/1/1 is perfect for such a tutorable package.

    I think Iíve had some card draw ideas, simplest being baubles, but I think it may just have to be a sacrifice.
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  14. #34
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Fair enough. Have you tried just adding more Nettlecysts, even keeping the Dreadnought package?

    I tested this today. It beat up on UR Delver and Elves.


    //Creatures: 27
    4 Esper Sentinel
    1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Oswald Fiddlebender
    4 Ingenious Smith
    3 Patchwork Automaton
    3 Painter's Servant
    3 Hushbringer
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Nettlecyst

    //Spells: 4
    4 March of Otherworldly Light

    //Artifacts: 7
    2 Grindstone
    2 Portable Hole
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 Torpor Orb

    //Mana: 22
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Urza's Saga
    4 Ancient Den
    7 Plains
    1 Karakas
    1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
    1 Darksteel Citadel

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Haywire Mite
    1 Hex Parasite
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Lion Sash
    1 Hanna's Custody


    Nettlecyst has been quite strong for me in both builds. It increases the threat count and gives you more to do when you run out of gas. Lion Sash too. Equipping Esper Sentinel or Hushbringer are strong plays.

  15. #35
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    Re: Paint Nought

    How about The Mycosynth Gardens to copy Dreadnought? The whole line costs about 3 mana, and its vulnerable to Wasteland. 1c + 1t: + (-1c virtual mana for the tapped land). Perhaps for a green splash? Haywire Mite and Urza's Saga each bin for 2 card types in the yard to support Traverse the Ulvenwald, which can find Phyrexian Dreadnought, or The Mycosynth Gardens, or Karakas.

    The Mycosynth Gardens can also dodge Wasteland by changing card types, but I would think this is an uncommon application

    Traverse is comparable to Crop Rotation without the additional cost. when Traverse can also find Wasteland, recover from Wasteland, or find Karakas early I would think it invaluable in a green splash. Building around Traverse could be risky though considering it needs a fed yard, or it could be boarded out.

    There are a number of artifacts it doesn't copy well like Mox Opal, it complements pieces like Patchwork Automaton, Esper Sentinel, maybe Thorn of Amethyst. It could function as pseudo protection for some pieces, ie. copy Ethersworn Canonist in response to removal.

    Swift Reconfiguration can change Dreadnought's cards type so it can avoid being sacrificed to its trigger, and one could then remove the Swift Reconfiguration. I'm not sure that there is an ideal way to get rid of it tho as even Engineered Explosives set to 1 also shoots Dreadnought. Swift Reconfiguration can cause opposing removal to lose targets, ideally temporarily in a local target range, and it can also enchant an opponent's creature as an instant speed pseudo Pacifism. Repeal could be ideal, cantrip + use Swift Reconfiguration again to turn off an opponent's creature when also returning Dreadnought to its normal card types.
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  16. #36
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Phyrexian Dreadnought looks for it's own card name as the default sacrifice. It does not care what it's own card type is. Swift Reconfig is not Stifle.

  17. #37
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Oh yeahÖ court of grace or similar was my main idea for card draw. The 4 mana zone is a big ask for that, but considering that mystic forge felt the strongest and was my main candidate. Just not sure if itís worth inclusion. If I were to add something I think Iíd lose an Oswald. 4 did feel like too many.
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  18. #38
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    Re: Paint Nought

    Some other card draw options to consider:

    Equipment + Esper Sentinel (opponent cannot pay tax)
    Currency Converter
    Eye of Vecna
    Glimmer Lens
    Halo Fountain
    Staff of the Storyteller
    Smuggler's Copter
    Tocasia's Welcome
    Welcoming Vampire

    Court of Grace is a good card but more of a control card. Might be slow for aggro.

    Edit: Of course Skullclamp is banned.

  19. #39
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    Re: Paint Nought

    I do recall considering eye of vecna. Mystic forge feels like the best answer though, again as a 1 off. The virtual card draw is all Iíd really require to get back to some gas. Next time Iíll have to try it, until then other old brews Iíve made that Iím trying to revive.
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