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Thread: Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

  1. #1
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    Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

    Say in a game I cast a Creative Technique and on cast choose not to demonstrate the spell.
    My opponent has a Surgical Extraction in hand and would like to remove the other Creative Techniques from my deck.
    When will the Creative Technique be a legal target for Surgical Extraction?
    If Creative Technique shuffles and flips into a spell with Cascade, and that trigger will eventually hit a second copy of Creative Technique, is there an opportunity to target the first Creative Technique with Surgical Extraction or is it still on the stack?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
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  2. #2

    Re: Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

    Cascade is a triggered ability, so before you start revealing cards, your op has an opportunity to cast surgical.
    For the cascade trigger to be on the stack, you must have received priority, which means creative technique has resolved and is sitting in your graveyard. It is a legal target for surgical here.

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    Re: Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

    I guess the questions is the specific timing of resolution and clarification on 608.

    608.2m As the final part of an instant or sorcery spell’s resolution, the spell is put into its owner’s
    graveyard.


    Since Creative Technique isn't like Mind's Desire where you get a delayed trigger to play the spell until end of turn, you need to make the decision to cast the spell or not during the resolution.
    Once that choice has been made, is the spell not then cast? And since there's something on top of the Creative Technique, it can't resolve until the spell on top has resolved?

    So you're saying the resolution of Creative Technique get a card that can be cast (but hasn't yet) then it finishes resolving and goes to the graveyard, and then the spell is put onto by then an empty stack?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  4. #4

    Re: Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

    I think you're conflating "Casting" with "Resolving"

    The process is:
    All players have passed priority. Technique resolves.
    You shuffle your library.
    You reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a non land card.
    You exile this card.
    You place the rest of the card on the bottom of your library in a random order.
    You choose to cast the exiled card.
    If you did: Execute the steps for casting a spell (move it to the stack, additional costs, declare targets, etc etc)
    If you did the steps, the spell is now cast. It has not resolved yet.
    The Trigger condition for cascade is met.
    Technique is now finished resolving. It is moved to the graveyard.
    Put cascade onto the stack.
    You have priority. the stack is Top -> Cascade -> The spell you found -> bottom
    You pass priority to attempt to resolve Cascade.
    Op has priority and casts surgical extraction on your technique.


    Think what would it would mean if it worked your way: If a spell was revealed off technique how would either player respond to it? because you can't cast Force during the resolution of another spell, right? How would you ever do the cascade, since it can't go onto the stack until you get priority, and you can't get priority in the middle of the spell right?

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    Re: Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

    It's not a matter of passing priority, it's when does the card change zones in resolution?
    If I Creative Technique into a second Creative Technique, you can't somehow get both with a Surgical by targeting the first, because as it resolves it's not in the graveyard yet.
    I didn't think objects left the stack with other objects on top of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  6. #6

    Re: Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    It's not a matter of passing priority, it's when does the card change zones in resolution?
    If I Creative Technique into a second Creative Technique, you can't somehow get both with a Surgical by targeting the first, because as it resolves it's not in the graveyard yet.
    I didn't think objects left the stack with other objects on top of them.
    You can hit the 2nd Technique with the first one which you can cast but your opponent can surgical the 1st one before the 2nd one resolves.

  7. #7

    Re: Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    It's not a matter of passing priority, it's when does the card change zones in resolution?
    If I Creative Technique into a second Creative Technique, you can't somehow get both with a Surgical by targeting the first, because as it resolves it's not in the graveyard yet.
    I didn't think objects left the stack with other objects on top of them.
    I was very clear in my outline how this would be impossible:
    If you creativity into a second creativity, the first one will be in the gy and it can be surgical'ed. But doing so won't stop the second because surgical doesn't remove copies from the stack.
    They can, however, respond to the cascade trigger by hitting the first surgical and then you can't hit a second.

    And when you have priority matters because that's the only time the surgical player can cast surgical.

  8. #8
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    Re: Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

    You can see how a non-Demonstrated Creative Technique goes to the graveyard basically at the same time as the spell it found is put onto the stack in this video (should cue to 18 minutes). So, I am pretty sure if you CT into another CT, it is correct that Surgical can hit the one in the Graveyard, but indeed, there is one already on the stack by then.
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  9. #9

    Re: Regarding Mississippi River versus Surgical Extraction

    One should note that as long as you keep demonstrating your Techniques and none of the original ones resolve or are countered, they can't be surgical'd as they will still be on the stack.

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