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Thread: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

  1. #81

    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    1RR - 3/3 flying
    When it dies, instead exile a Force of Will or Lorien Revealed or Murktide Regent from graveyard and regenerate. If you can't, you may exile 4 1cmc cards instead.

    Is that playable enough for the extra 2 mana over Delver of Secrets? Slow but very hard for nonwhite decks to remove.

    5c Beans control can easily exile 1 card for the cost. Maybe it's better as a grindy midrange finisher.
    "Dies"? In this economy?

  2. #82
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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Is losing to the order of your deck really worth running 2 cards that are really bad on their own?
    What's the 2nd bad card? Force? Lorien Revealed? Murktide? Leyline Binding? Solitude? Cards that would already be in those decks?

    What does order of deck have to do with it? You use cards already in the graveyard through normal means.

    Its a bit slow but resilient against nonwhite removal like Bolt, Decay, Trophy, Murderous Cut, Snuff Out, Fatal Push, Bowmasters, Unholy Heat, Abrade, Shatterskull Smashing, Broadside Bombardiers, Fury, Sheoldred's Edict, combat damage... Chumps Murktide & Marit Lage for days. Trades positively with DRC & Delver.

  3. #83

    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    What's the 2nd bad card? Force? Lorien Revealed? Murktide? Leyline Binding? Solitude? Cards that would already be in those decks?

    What does order of deck have to do with it? You use cards already in the graveyard through normal means.

    Its a bit slow but resilient against nonwhite removal like Bolt, Decay, Trophy, Murderous Cut, Snuff Out, Fatal Push, Bowmasters, Unholy Heat, Abrade, Shatterskull Smashing, Broadside Bombardiers, Fury, Sheoldred's Edict, combat damage... Chumps Murktide & Marit Lage for days. Trades positively with DRC & Delver.
    I thought you were still talking about the altar combo.

    Even then just running Murktide instead seems like a better deals.
    Or go old school with Rainbow Efreet.

    Given that you have to get it on the field first to recur also seems not so great.

  4. #84
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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Could run it in addition to Murktide?

    Exiling Murktide saves it for 1 card (don't need big yard). Exiling spells to Phoenix grows Murktide (can choose to exile extra cards too).

    The original cast for 1RR is the worst part. If there's a cycle, maybe the blue or white one will be playable.

  5. #85

    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Could run it in addition to Murktide?

    Exiling Murktide saves it for 1 card (don't need big yard). Exiling spells to Phoenix grows Murktide (can choose to exile extra cards too).

    The original cast for 1RR is the worst part. If there's a cycle, maybe the blue or white one will be playable.
    Casting the initial Murktide eats all the fodder for the birb.
    No bueno.

    Whole set is spoiled so no cycle.

  6. #86

    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Do we think that the surveil duals will see any play as fetchable 1-ofs?

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Do we think that the surveil duals will see any play as fetchable 1-ofs?
    I think with about the same impact as the Triomes. If you're on 2 colors and don't feel the need for a Shock or third basic then I wouldn't judge a 1-of.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Do we think that the surveil duals will see any play as fetchable 1-ofs?
    A midrange deck might run 1 copy, like the Triomes.

    A 2-color aggro deck (UR Delver, UB Shadow) or Stompy deck (RW Initiative) can't afford the tempo loss for ETB tapped.

  9. #89

    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Mystic sanctuary is a widely played card. This is not quite as powerful an effect, but is much much better before your 4th land, and can be paired with any fetch or deck.

    I think basically any midrange or control deck that isnít already playing mystic sanctuary should play 1. Probably any graveyard deck too. Turning any fetch into an opt is great.

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    If using this before 4th land, it's better than Sanctuary... but is it better than an untapped dual/basic? Most midrange decks have relevant plays at 1-3 mana and want those first lands untapped. Among tapped lands, it is better fixing than Sanctuary but worse than a Triome.

    4c-5c would probably prefer the Triome for better mana and to support effects like Leyline Binding & Prismatic Ending. At 4+ lands the Triome can cycle too.

    The most promising niche is 2-3c midrange and control. 2c might have wanted a 5th dual before Prismatic Vista was printed, but now 2c can get perfect mana with untapped basics without losing to Wasteland/Daze decks... For modal fixing & card selection there's also Lorien Revealed.

    Lorien is kind of like a tapped land (-1 mana of tempo) that does -1 library size +1 graveyard size & change top card (similar to Surveil 1), and fixes for any blue dual or Island. Except it also has draw 3 and pitches to Force. So would you just play more Loriens first?

    There might still be a use as a 1-of, but they have a lot more competition now than if they were printed a few years ago. They look made for Modern and newer formats, not Legacy.

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    They were made for Worldgorger Dragon. We hold this truth to be self-evident.

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    They were made for Worldgorger Dragon. We hold this truth to be self-evident.
    That is the best usecase. What's the wincon? 1-of Thassa is compact.

    Any X-mana sink would require a 2nd land entering untapped. Other wincons don't win as cleanly or require more slots.
    Last edited by FTW; 02-07-2024 at 01:53 AM.

  13. #93

    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    If using this before 4th land, it's better than Sanctuary... but is it better than an untapped dual/basic? Most midrange decks have relevant plays at 1-3 mana and want those first lands untapped. Among tapped lands, it is better fixing than Sanctuary but worse than a Triome.

    [Ö]

    Lorien is kind of like a tapped land (-1 mana of tempo) that does -1 library size +1 graveyard size & change top card (similar to Surveil 1), and fixes for any blue dual or Island. Except it also has draw 3 and pitches to Force. So would you just play more Loriens first?

    There might still be a use as a 1-of, but they have a lot more competition now than if they were printed a few years ago. They look made for Modern and newer formats, not Legacy.
    Are you saying that decks always have perfect mana utilization before they have 4 lands? People save fetches for brainstorm all the time. Holding fetches costs 1 mana every turn for the chance to maybe improve 1-2 cards. Getting this improves 1 card immediately for only 1 mana total. This card turns any extra mana into a (mediocre) cantrip, without running headfirst into a daze like a real cantrip would. A land heavy hand will be much better with fetch this, t2 brainstorm fetch instead of t1 pass, t2 brainstorm fetch. T3 you can cast a bowcaster around daze, see if you need to plow anything, then eot get this.

    Presumably you have 8+ fetches. So the marginal value of the first one of these over the first lorien revealed is 8x higher. Lorien also requires you to be base blue and canít be your only land in hand.

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    They were made for Worldgorger Dragon. We hold this truth to be self-evident.
    Honestly this might have been good enough to see play in like, circa 2019 Legacy

    It's a pity
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

  15. #95

    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    They were made for Worldgorger Dragon. We hold this truth to be self-evident.
    I was trying to figure out whether there were decks that would get extra benefit from them or if there was a way to make silly stuff like casting Worldly Tutor with the surveil trigger on the stack useful, but I never even thought of that combo.

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Honestly this might have been good enough to see play in like, circa 2019 Legacy

    It's a pity
    Check out the Worldgorger Dragon thread. Fox linked a video. Rood already got a 5-0 with the set out 1 day.

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Leyline 5-0 list

    I wonder how much of Leyline is a meme and how competitive it is going forward.

    From what I've seen from Modern streamers, Cryptic Coat in Stoneforge lists and Insidious Roots are also probably cards to look out for.

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Lol Draco Beans looks funny. The deck looks powerful but also much weaker if Leyline isn't in the opening hand (or if you mull heavily into Leyline and don't draw Beans to catch up on cards).

    Coat made it into Cephalid Breakfast as a grindy SFM target.

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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    The deck looks powerful but also much weaker if Leyline isn't in the opening hand (or if you mull heavily into Leyline and don't draw Beans to catch up on cards).
    You can cast anything on T2 from 2 lands without leyline, not sure why you would want to aggressively mulligan for it?

    It more looks to me that leyline is the first easy sideout?

  20. #100
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    Re: [MKM] Murders at Karlov Mannor: Anyone have a Clue?

    How do the layers and timestamps work with T0 Leyline of the Guildpact vs T1 Blood Moon?

    Do they just become Mountains?

    Edit: If you fetch exactly T1 tapped Lounge T2 Savannah then you can cast anything turn 2, but you can't cast anything turn 1 and get set far back by Wasteland on Lounge (and then may not have blue to cantrip into a 3rd fetch for USea or Volc). That line works but isn't what you want to do all games. Leyline adds a lot of mana flexibility and turns on Scion of Draco's keywords.

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