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Thread: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

  1. #41
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    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Maybe it's just future proofing since Deathbellow War Cry puts them onto the battlefield, so "Kindred Sorcery - Minotaur" would put front and center all those weird Comprehensive Rules scenarios where the wrong type of card is used in otherwise benign situations.

    But that's giving WotC a lot of credit /shrug
    I think there was a brief period (maybe just during spoilers) when Rebels could fetch Crib Swap, so they changed the standard wording to "Rebel permanent card" and "on the battlefield" instead of "put a Rebel in play".

  2. #42

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    The rules already know how to handle when you try and put a not-permanent onto the battlefield. They just stay in whatever zone they were in before.
    Ephemerate a cloaked creature to know more.

  3. #43

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Someone put a googledoc of all the leaks together.

    Personal highlights:

    Necrodominance BBB
    Legendary Enchantment (M)
    Skip your draw step.
    At the beginning of your end step, you may pay any amount of life. If you do, draw that many cards.
    Your maximum hand size is five.
    If a card or token would be put into your graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.
    Harbinger of the Seas 1UU
    Creature - Merfolk Wizard (R)
    Nonbasic lands are Islands.
    2/2
    Archway of Innovation
    Land (R)
    Archway of Innovation enters the battlefield tapped unless you control an Island.
    T: Add U.
    U, T: The next spell you cast this turn has improvise.
    Bloodbraid Challenger 3RG
    Creature - Elf Berserker (R)
    Cascade
    Haste
    Escape–3RG, Exile three other cards from your graveyard.
    4/3

  4. #44

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    It's weird they addressed the leaks but not all of the leaks

  5. #45
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    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    It’s funny how with the benefit of hindsight, making Portal cards legal was the worst thing to ever happen to Legacy
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

  6. #46

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    It’s funny how with the benefit of hindsight, making Portal cards legal was the worst thing to ever happen to Legacy
    Worse than adding modern-day fetchlands in Onslaught?

  7. #47
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    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Worse than adding modern-day fetchlands in Onslaught?
    I mean yeah, I'd say it's worse than any individual card or even group of cards could hope to be.

    Individual cards can be banned, or nerfed eg Companions even while Wizards shouts and insists that's not what they're doing.

    But at this point you can't really conceivably unwind the direct-to-Eternal sets as a block, or their concept. Wizards' business model is too invested in them.

    Honestly I was thinking about this getting into and watching premodern stuff lately, besides just the raw nostalgia I feel seeing Eternal Dragon and Ravenous Baloth be playable cards again, and the fun of Survival decks existing, I think a fundamental appeal of the format is just the fact that every single card in it has had to, at some point, been capable of existing in Standard. And then obviously there's some asterisks there that get resolved via the banned list, but insert sets just overwhelm what a banned list is capable of handling.

    I'm actually really curious what a format that's *only* composed of formerly Standard legal sets would look like and am quite sure it would be miles better than Legacy.
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

  8. #48
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    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Barrowgoyf 2B
    Creature - Lhurgoyf (R)
    Deathtouch, lifelink
    Barrowgoyf’’s power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1.
    Whenever Barrowgoyf deals combat damage to a player, you may mill that many cards. If you do, you may put a creature card from among them into your hand.
    */*+1

    So, this races a Murktide, which is neat. Also fuels Necrodominance which is not nearly enough of a fix to Necropotence to not be stupid as fuck. Although at this point trying to figure out what cards are actually broken compared to the shit they just insert into the format feels like a crap shoot.
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

  9. #49
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    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Arguably the problem started with Modern, WOTC's attempt to subvert the Reserved List by creating an Eternal format that started after the list ended, trying to slowly phase out Legacy.

    In principle it was a good idea. Legacy staples were inaccessibly expensive to support a format intended to be the #2 format after Standard. Modern was budget Legacy/Extended. But then Modern went through a series of too many bans trying to create a stable format, and many players still preferred Legacy.

    So then Wizards started making Modern-legal reprints of popular Legacy cards, to catch more of the Legacy player base. And then making new versions of Reserved List cards to catch even more.

    But they couldn't completely alienate their eternal player base either. Us diehards still wanted to play Eternal. Eternal players were also a money-loser for them. We didn't need new Standard-legal sets (power level too low to matter in Legacy), we bought cards off the secondary market, supported dealers that made money off the Reserved List, keeping rarely-changing decks & depriving WOTC of profit.

    If Modern was getting Legacy's old cards, Legacy needed new cards to make it a distinct format, and also new cards to make Legacy players buy product. Oh, I know, let's give them all the extra casual formats - Commander, Portal, Archenemy, etc. Then Legacy still has a distinct cardbase, and they can force Eternal players to spend money on new sets.

    Maybe that's Portal's fault. But they would have found some way to sell direct-to-Eternal new cards, just to get Eternal players buying new product. They weren't just going to let us sit on our staple Xerox piles forever.

  10. #50

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Arguably the problem started with Modern, WOTC's attempt to subvert the Reserved List by creating an Eternal format that started after the list ended, trying to slowly phase out Legacy.

    In principle it was a good idea. Legacy staples were inaccessibly expensive to support a format intended to be the #2 format after Standard. Modern was budget Legacy/Extended. But then Modern went through a series of too many bans trying to create a stable format, and many players still preferred Legacy.

    So then Wizards started making Modern-legal reprints of popular Legacy cards, to catch more of the Legacy player base. And then making new versions of Reserved List cards to catch even more.

    But they couldn't completely alienate their eternal player base either. Us diehards still wanted to play Eternal. Eternal players were also a money-loser for them. We didn't need new Standard-legal sets (power level too low to matter in Legacy), we bought cards off the secondary market, supported dealers that made money off the Reserved List, keeping rarely-changing decks & depriving WOTC of profit.

    If Modern was getting Legacy's old cards, Legacy needed new cards to make it a distinct format, and also new cards to make Legacy players buy product. Oh, I know, let's give them all the extra casual formats - Commander, Portal, Archenemy, etc. Then Legacy still has a distinct cardbase, and they can force Eternal players to spend money on new sets.

    Maybe that's Portal's fault. But they would have found some way to sell direct-to-Eternal new cards, just to get Eternal players buying new product. They weren't just going to let us sit on our staple Xerox piles forever.
    That assumes that they ever in any shape whatsoever cared about eternal.
    Modern was created to keep players burnt out by the constant standard rotation hooked with the promise of a more stable and larger format.

    Now they reprint stuff into modern which they know is balanced or which they have balanced around previously so tools are available.
    Then there are a lot of semi-functional reprints for commander as every product is a commander first product despite their labels indicating otherwise.

    Legacy is a completely irrelevant demographic that only serves the purpose to produce templates to port to modern and to identify what is busted so they can ban or avoid prints.

  11. #51

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Barrowgoyf 2B
    Creature - Lhurgoyf (R)
    Deathtouch, lifelink
    Barrowgoyf’’s power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1.
    Whenever Barrowgoyf deals combat damage to a player, you may mill that many cards. If you do, you may put a creature card from among them into your hand.
    */*+1

    So, this races a Murktide, which is neat. Also fuels Necrodominance which is not nearly enough of a fix to Necropotence to not be stupid as fuck. Although at this point trying to figure out what cards are actually broken compared to the shit they just insert into the format feels like a crap shoot.

    Yeah, this is a very good, workable Goyf.
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  12. #52
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    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    That assumes that they ever in any shape whatsoever cared about eternal.
    Modern was created to keep players burnt out by the constant standard rotation hooked with the promise of a more stable and larger format.
    That's what Extended was. Extended was popular. The problem is once Ravnica rotated out of Extended, the format died.

    Legacy was also popular for the same reasons: non-rotating format, larger card base, stable decks.

    It became obvious people treated Extended as budget Legacy (fetch + shock instead of fetch + dual), catching players who liked a more stable & higher-powered format but couldn't afford Revised duals. They kept Extended alive delaying the Onslaught rotation until Zendikar fetches, but it died when Ravnica shocks rotated out.

    Realizing Extended was dead but Legacy would always be too expensive due to the Reserved List, they created Modern as the fetch + shock format. Modern started off as an Extended reboot.

    In order to make Modern a real format, they had to draw a line between blocks somewhere. It had to be after the Reserved List ended (Masques), but early enough to include shocks+fetches (Ravnica). I remember the exact cutoff being debated at first. They settled on Mirrodin block and the "Modern" card art for thematic reasons and MTGO card availability.

    But that wasn't an ideal way to create a fixed Legacy. A lot of older cards were popular and of fair enough power level. So they eventually made Modern reprints.

    If they wanted to keep on theme, they wouldn't bring old Legacy cards into Modern even if the power level is balanced. That wasn't what the format was "supposed" to be. It isn't necessary to have a more stable format than Standard. The only reason to bring in Legacy cards / functional reprints is to phase out the function Legacy once had: keeping the fun interactions & non-rotating format, but without a Reserved List.

    Legacy was once the #2 format after Standard. It was hugely popular, so they had to care about it. But they didn't like it. They couldn't monetize it (stable format, few Standard-powered cards could make the cut). Yet it was prohibitively expensive due to the Reserved List policy. They couldn't outright kill Legacy. So instead they've tried to gradually invalidate the format over time or find ways to force monetization (make casual set Legacy legal & throw in 1 format-breaking must-have).
    Last edited by FTW; 05-06-2024 at 09:22 PM.

  13. #53

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    That's what Extended was. Extended was popular. The problem is once Ravnica rotated out of Extended, the format died.

    Legacy was also popular for the same reasons: non-rotating format, larger card base, stable decks.

    It became obvious people treated Extended as budget Legacy (fetch + shock instead of fetch + dual), catching players who liked a more stable & higher-powered format but couldn't afford Revised duals. They kept Extended alive printing Zendikar fetches when Onslaught fetches rotated out, but it died when Ravnica shocks rotated out. They even made an exception to delay Ravnica rotation... but eventually it had to rotate.

    Realizing Extended was dead but Legacy would always be too expensive due to the Reserved List, they created Modern as the fetch + shock format. Modern started off as an Extended reboot.

    In order to make Modern a real format, they had to draw a line between blocks somewhere. It had to be after the Reserved List ended (Masques), but early enough to include shocks+fetches (Ravnica). I remember the exact cutoff being debated at first. They settled on Mirrodin block and the "Modern" card art for thematic reasons and MTGO card availability.

    But that wasn't an ideal way to create a fixed Legacy. A lot of older cards were popular and of fair enough power level. So they eventually made Modern reprints.

    If they wanted to keep on theme, they wouldn't bring old Legacy cards into Modern even if the power level is balanced. That wasn't what the format was "supposed" to be. It isn't necessary to have a more stable format than Standard. The only reason to bring in Legacy cards / functional reprints is to phase out the function Legacy once had: keeping the fun interactions & non-rotating format, but without a Reserved List.

    Legacy was once the #2 format after Standard. It was hugely popular, so they had to care about it. But they didn't like it. They couldn't monetize it (stable format, few Standard-powered cards could make the cut). Yet it was prohibitively expensive due to the Reserved List policy. They couldn't outright kill Legacy. So instead they've tried to gradually invalidate the format over time or find ways to force monetization (make casual set Legacy legal & throw in 1 format-breaking must-have).
    I only started playing competitively in the late 2000s but I remember nobody giving a shit about Extended outside of GPs and PTQs.
    There was also basically no overlap between Legacy and Extended player base.
    Extended was also killed off way before Modern was created.

    Also, Legacy wasn't actually that expensive.
    It only got expensive once they reintroduced Legacy GPs which started the huge hike in prices.

    Even if Legacy was once very popular, that doesn't mean that they need to do anything about it.
    There is no need to invalidate it.
    When Modern was created, Legacy was already a dying demographic.

    At this point, every other format is just an excuse to print more commander stuff which is what the power level is based on.
    To push sales and keep the other formats afloat they print obviously OP stuff to ban it later.
    Can't wait to see the Monke/Gaak of this set.

  14. #54

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    I think modern was an extended replacement but also they wanted to not repeat the issues with extended which, as I remember it, was combo decks. Which is why so many combo decks were banned so early. Basically everything that was an extended deck.

  15. #55
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    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Yeah Extended had too many broken combos so they pre-banned them for Modern.

    Extended was popular since the 90s. It always had dumb combos. It was the format that let you combine blocks to jam together the best tutors + cantrips + fast mana + duals, enough to enable even flimsy combo kills like Pebbles and Trix.

    Legacy took off by the mid 00s, just as the 2005 rotation shook up Extended, rotating out many older blocks but gaining Ravnica. So Legacy became the best place to play fun old sets, while Extended shifted into a role as the fetch + shock format. Aside from the forced Extended events (GPs, PTQs), the Extended player base were people who wanted a more permanent & powered format than Standard but couldn't afford Legacy.

    By the late 00s the main barrier to Legacy was duals. Other price barriers: FoW, Wasteland, Karakas, Tabernacle, LED, Mox Diamond. Players who couldn't afford those staples ended up in Extended instead of Legacy. If you had duals you played Legacy. If you only had shocks, you played Extended.

    To keep Extended alive they made a few adjustments to prolong keeping fetch+shock in the format. With shocks gone, Extended really died, because the main player base were people who had shocks instead of duals.

    Modern was brought in to replace Extended around 2011. It was after Ravnica rotated out in 2010 and Extended died. When they decided how to define the new format, they wanted to avoid what killed Extended (fetch + shock rotating out) and what made Legacy a financial nightmare (Reserved List). That's why the Extended replacement had to start after Masques & before Ravnica, instead of just starting it where Extended finished and banning combos. Backing up to Mirrodin/8th was no fluke. It was fixed Extended & reserved list-free Eternal.

    When Modern was first created, Legacy was the 2nd most popular format, with Standard #1. Legacy was thriving with the SCG series. Stealing players from Legacy was absolutely a goal of Modern. The Reserved List created a supply problem vs the demand of many Legacy GPs, so they wanted to replace those Legacy events with Modern events (no Reserved List cost barrier & fully monetizable by them via Modern Masters). They continued in that direction until Modern became the premier format.

    Opinions over WOTC business policy were debated even then. Based on how that all played out, I've always held the position that Modern was brought in to replace & gradually invalidate Legacy. Why? So they could both dodge the Reserved List & have the most popular eternal format monetized, fixing what they didn't like about Legacy in its prime.

    Using Modern Horizons to make functional Legacy reprints and duck the Reserved List is another slap in the face in the same agenda. They could print those for Commander without making them Modern legal. They're just blatantly adding more Legacy cards to Modern.
    Last edited by FTW; 05-06-2024 at 10:05 PM.

  16. #56

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    The real death knell for eternal formats was Hasbro's execs being such a useless bunch of cunt fucks that they're losing huge $$ on everything but MTG, and so are cracking the game by printing "must buy powercreep" everywhere.

    EDIT: i mean for me the real problem was when they started giving Blue the best creatures. Blue shouldn't have a better aggro 1 drop than any other color... but here we are.

  17. #57
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    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Speaking of, have they spoiled the blue Goyf yet?

    Probably something like

    Fair.Creature 1U
    Creature - Lhurgoyf
    Flying
    Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, surveil 1.
    Discard a card: Ward 2.
    */*+1

  18. #58

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Speaking of, have they spoiled the blue Goyf yet?

    Probably something like

    Fair.Creature 1U
    Creature - Lhurgoyf
    Flying
    Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, surveil 1.
    Discard a card: Ward 2.
    */*+1
    Not sure that there will be one since most of the goyfs will be in the commander deck which is BRG.

    Just to be petty, ward doesn't work that way :)

  19. #59

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Someone put a googledoc of all the leaks together.

    Personal highlights:
    Necrodominace is clearly headed for the ban list if it's real, but what kind of decks would Bloodbraid Challenger and Archway of Innovation be good in?

  20. #60

    Re: [MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

    Hot take: Necrodominance is going to show Necropotence is a safe unban. The exile from graveyard clause makes them unplayable in the most obvious decks they would slot into. The not getting cards until next turn is also a big drawback especially for combo decks.

    Archway is "fixed" Academy so start from there I suppose.

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