No Reserve List Legacy - What would that format look like?

[Captain Hammer]

Lately, our local playgroup all got into Premodern, 2015 Modern and PreWar Legacy aka 2018 Legacy/PreFIRE Legacy. These variant formats are soo much fun that it made us discuss what a competitive No Reserved List Legacy format might look like.

Most legacy decks could be ported, with Shocklands subbing in for Fetches and Stompy decks becoming more reliant on Ancient Tomb and Once Upon a Time to find it (and possibly a couple of Crystal Vein or Gemstone Caverns).

All these shocklands would likely make aggro decks and burn and monocolor decks and deaths shadow more competitive.

So it wasn’t clear to us what decks would emerge at the top of such a format.

Please share your thoughts on if you believe this would be more diverse or less diverse than current legacy and what might emerge as tier one strategies in such a format.

[morgan_coke]

Lately, our local playgroup all got into Premodern, 2015 Modern and PreWar Legacy aka 2018 Legacy/PreFIRE Legacy. These variant formats are soo much fun that it made us discuss what a competitive No Reserved List Legacy format might look like.

Most legacy decks could be ported, with Shocklands subbing in for Fetches and Stompy decks becoming more reliant on Ancient Tomb and Once Upon a Time to find it (and possibly a couple of Crystal Vein or Gemstone Caverns).

All these shocklands would likely make aggro decks and burn and monocolor decks and deaths shadow more competitive.

So it wasn’t clear to us what decks would emerge at the top of such a format.

Please share your thoughts on if you believe this would be more diverse or less diverse than current legacy and what might emerge as tier one strategies in such a format.

At this point you're basically just describing Modern.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

At this point you're basically just describing Modern.

This is a very real danger to the format and one of the dilemmas of the Legacy banlist; if you ban the broken, new payoffs from every new stupid Commander set they'll just print more and you're playing whack-a-mole, but if you ban the old enabler cards it just feels like Modern.

But I don't think getting rid of the duals (and LED, Cradle, Tabernacle, City etc.) is enough to get there, like you still have Force of Will, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Ancient Tomb, Swords to Plowshares, etc.. Cards that could be Modern legal but they don't want to unban like Ponder and Chrome Mox. You have tiers of non-modern cards that are currently banned but frankly could be unbanned really easily like Mind Twist or Frantic Search. You have cards that are somewhere between fringe and unplayable now but have been highly played in the past and could easily be played again if the overall power level of the format came down a bit, like Hymn to Tourach, High Tide, or Food Chain.

I agree that wanting to differentiate the format from Modern is a valid concern to keep an eye on but I think this take is too dismissive of how trivial that distinction really is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

To answer the original question I think actually probably the archetype to take the biggest hit would be storm/fast combo. Duals are replaceable, City is already worse than Tomb in most decks that run both and some decks only run Tomb to start with; Cradle is a big haymaker and threat multiplier but isn't really fundamentally necessary to any of the decks it's in. But there just isn't a good replacement for LED.

Like Show and Tell and Entomb/Reanimate escape impact, speaking of cards that aren't Modern legal, but making combo overall slower and more dependent on permanents that have to stay in play actually increases the viability of non-blue decks a fair bit.

[morgan_coke]

To answer the original question I think actually probably the archetype to take the biggest hit would be storm/fast combo. Duals are replaceable, City is already worse than Tomb in most decks that run both and some decks only run Tomb to start with; Cradle is a big haymaker and threat multiplier but isn't really fundamentally necessary to any of the decks it's in. But there just isn't a good replacement for LED.

Like Show and Tell and Entomb/Reanimate escape impact, speaking of cards that aren't Modern legal, but making combo overall slower and more dependent on permanents that have to stay in play actually increases the viability of non-blue decks a fair bit.

I've always felt Storm becoming the default combo is the most detrimental thing they've ever done to the game. All of a sudden combo ONLY interacted on the stack, and they've been printing dumbness ever since to try and fix that for the other colors, but never really succeeded.

The Blue Shell never would have become as omnipresent as it is if it wasn't for storm combo. Because Blue Shell Tempo beats storm combo, and plays at least even with everything else. So you've got two pillars, one of which you need blue to beat (combo) and a diametrically opposed tempo/disruption pillar. This directly led to the emergence of weenie prison (DnT) and the end of things like Goblins.

The format was at its best and most diverse when Goblins was the default Legacy measuring stick, because it won with creatures through the attack phase, which meant almost every deck could interact with it. The rise of Dredge and Storm (your deck is irrelevant while I play solitaire) has really pushed Magic in some weird directions in Eternal formats with ban lists.

[michaelq]

you still have Force of Will, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Ancient Tomb, Swords to Plowshares, etc.. Cards that could be Modern legal but they don't want to unban like Ponder and Chrome Mox.

This.

I've been recording lots of legacy leagues of me playing no reserve list decks and often 4-1'ing or 5-0'ing. It's entirely possible even without duals/cities/diamonds.

Keep in mind that it's unilateral disarmament - my opponents are still playing reserve list cards. But I really enjoy these decks and the gameplay. All the decks are under $1k to build. And I'm not talking traditional budget decks (burn, etc.)

Some of the leagues I've published recently:
- Mono U control (I just trophied two times in a row with this)
- UB Kaito control (with strix and mockingbird)
- UW Dragons (with Murk, Clarion Conqueror, Roiling Dragonstorm)
- BW Tokens (with Therapy, Ajani, Staff of the Storyteller)
- And of course Pox and Mono Black Aggro.

The advantage of such a format over Modern is you get to play tons of classic powerful cards – dark rit, plow, brainstorm, and force + wasteland serve as a backstop against degenerate strategies.

The advantage over Premodern is the format never gets "solved" because you still get tons of new cards each year.

You could literally just use the legacy banned list + the full reserved list (yes even relatively cheap cards like Meditate have to be included). And that's the format. No additional governance needed.

MTGO could easily support such a format, and it would only be good for Wizards of the Coast since they'd have a viable alternative to removing the reserve list (which they seem to be loath to due owing to likely lawsuits from collectors).

Just imagine getting like 90% of the thrill of legacy without having to worry about your deck getting stolen and losing $5k.

If everyone multilaterally disarms, there's no disadvantage to being broke. There's no struggle to save up to buy duals when they seem to get more expensive every year.

Just some thoughts. I'd be happy to organize a tournament around this if anyone else is interested. My no reserve list videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...Yr6f_h-tcyIbqT

[Captain Hammer]

Lots of fantastic feedback everyone. So basically….

Storm combo could no longer compete without LED - which makes nonblue decks competitive

There would be an incentive to stay monocolored - multicolored decks would be more vulnerable to burn and aggro strategies

Most every deck could be built for less $1K

Pretty much every current deck/strategy except for LED spell based combo decks would remain viable, but many aggro and nonblue decks would become competitive as well.

So far I havent heard any negatives (unless youre a storm player).

MTGO could easily support such a format, and it would only be good for Wizards of the Coast since they'd have a viable alternative to removing the reserve list (which they seem to be loath to due owing to likely lawsuits from collectors).

Just imagine getting like 90% of the thrill of legacy without having to worry about your deck getting stolen and losing $5k.

If everyone multilaterally disarms, there's no disadvantage to being broke. There's no struggle to save up to buy duals when they seem to get more expensive every year.

Just some thoughts. I'd be happy to organize a tournament around this if anyone else is interested. My no reserve list videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...Yr6f_h-tcyIbqT

That would be amazing. If you are able to organize a tournament, I would definitely participate. But you will likely need to advertise on reddit and discord as thats where most of the current legacy community has moved to.

P.S: Your videos are a blast. Thank you for sharing. Youre an excellent player and commenter, keep at it, I think you could be the next Bosh/TU. Its refreshing to see fresh innovative lists played by someone that clearly put a lot more work into the decks than most mtg streamers.