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Thread: How Humility Works

  1. #121

    Re: How Humility Works

    Do creatures still have their creature type? EX i have a humility in play and then play engineered plague naming goblins or whatever

  2. #122
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Yes, they do.
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  3. #123
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Maybe I missed it in here somewhere, but what happens if my opponent has humility in play, then I play Magus of the Moon, or Painter's servant.
    This is probably stupid but i still haven't received a straight answer.

    Thanks,
    Chris

  4. #124

    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Afaik Magus of the Moon still works under a Humility.
    Know or know not; there is no "afaik". (Read: Only post an answer if you're certain, and back it up with rules.)

    Magus's effect is a type-changing effect and applies in layer 4; Humility's effect is applied in layer 5. All effects are applied all at once in layer order globally, so Magus's effect will always be there even though the ability that created it gets removed later.

    All creature abilities that apply in layer 5 (and that's most of them, since layer 5 is everything that's not copy, control, text, type, or power/toughness) are dependent on Humility's effect, so Humility will always remove them - but effects in earlier layers can sneak in.

    Painter's Servant's effect is layer 5. The color choice is made "as Painter's Servant comes into play" which is before it's in play, so the choice will be made even if it doesn't do much with Humility in play.

    (And ok, color characteristic defining abilities are the one layer 5 effect not affected by Humility, since CDAs always apply first in a layer - Kobolds are still red.)

    418.5c. An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

    418.5d. An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they're applied in "timestamp order" relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
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  5. #125
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Why are Kobolds red under Humility if Painter's Servant's ability (same as Kobolds?) doesn't make everything the chosen color?

  6. #126
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Because the Kobolds' ability is a so-called characteristic-setting ability.

    418.5a [...] Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order.
    Both Kobolds and Humility (1st effect) are layer 5. Humility is always applied after the Kobolds' CSA. The result is that Kobolds are in play as 1/1 without any abilities (!), but they are still red (similar to the Magus of the Moon interaction).

    Note that Painter works differently. In this case, his ability depends on Humility, and so it is removed by Humility.

    418.5c An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

    Just to make it complete, here's the definition of CSA:

    405.2. Some objects have intrinsic static abilities which state that the object “has” one or more characteristic values; “is” one or more particular types, supertypes, subtypes, or colors; or that one or more of its characteristics “is” or “are” a particular value. These abilities are characteristic-setting abilities.
    So Kobolds have a CSA which affects the Kobolds themselves. Painter's ability does not only affect itself, and so it's not a CSA. That's the differerence
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  7. #127

    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurelin View Post
    So Kobolds have a CSA which affects the Kobolds themselves. Painter's ability does not only affect itself, and so it's not a CSA. That's the differerence
    But then, tarmogoyf would be a x/x+1 under a humility?
    Because it has a CSA and it applies before humility, just like kobolds... (please tell me that the goyf is not even better... please... )

  8. #128

    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinch View Post
    But then, tarmogoyf would be a x/x+1 under a humility?
    Because it has a CSA and it applies before humility, just like kobolds... (please tell me that the goyf is not even better... please... )
    Tarmogoyf's CDA effect is layer 6a. Humility's P/T setting effect is layer 6b. Humility wins.

    The Kobold/Humility part of that interaction is in earlier layers.
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  9. #129
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Zinch View Post
    Because it has a CSA and it applies before humility,
    Like Anusien said, the CDA (= CSA !? ) thing only works inside each layer, not if the effects apply in different layers.


    The basic recipe for all these layer actions is essentially logical.

    a) You start with the objects themselves
    b) You order the effects layer by layer from 1 to 6a-e
    c) Inside each layer - starting with 1, of course - you first check for dependencies (which includes the question about CSAs)
    d) After that, you apply the remaining effects in timestamp order
    e) Then you move over to the next layer
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  10. #130
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by TeKo View Post
    "As comes into play" effects still work, so you name a card!
    This was about Meddling mage. But if I play a Harmonic Sliver, does its come into play ability still blow up humility?

  11. #131
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    This was about Meddling mage. But if I play a Harmonic Sliver, does its come into play ability still blow up humility?
    No.

    Abilites worded "As this comes into play" or "this comes into play (tapped, with counters etc...)" still work under humility because they take effect before the creature actually hits play. Thse abilites modify how something comes into play.

    Abilites such as harmonic sliver which are worded "when this comes into play" do not happen under humility since those don't trigger until after the creature hits play. These are triggered abilities that go onto the stack.

  12. #132
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Stupid question:
    suppose I activate my mishra during the combat step of my opponent to block some dude.
    Then, during his second main phase, the same filthy opponent plays humility.

    My mishra is no a 1/1 and this effect doesn't end at EOT, right? same for nantuko monastery and for all other animate land?

  13. #133
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Mishra becomes a 1/1 temporarily, and the effect still ends at the end of turn. The reason is that the activation includes a duration of the effect. And this is not affected by Humility at all.
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  14. #134
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    Re: How Humility Works

    This happened this weekend at a tournament. I just want to clarify.

    Humility is in play.

    I attack with my Eternal Witness, Grave-Sheel Scarab... etc... all 1/1s.

    He (opponent) activates Phyrexian Totem, a 5/5 Phyrexian Negator, to block.

    After the combat step, on my second main phase, I play Spitting Image on his Phyrexian Totem.

    Do I keep my own Phyrexian Totem, having to activate it every turn for it to become a 5/5 Trample? Or does it become just another 1/1?
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  15. #135
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    Re: How Humility Works

    You get a non-animated Totem with the ability to be animated. Copy-Effects are in Layer 1 while both Humility and the Totem's activation are only applied in higher layers.

  16. #136
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Humility + Mishra's Factory + Elspeth's second ability. Does Mishra's Factory become a 5/5 unblockable?
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  17. #137
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    Humility + Mishra's Factory + Elspeth's second ability. Does Mishra's Factory become a 5/5 unblockable?
    no mishra becomes a 5/5 flyer ;)
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  18. #138
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathScythe View Post
    no mishra becomes a 5/5 flyer ;)
    Yeah, and because all other creatures don't have flying, it will usually be unblockable. Thanks .
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  19. #139
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    Re: How Humility Works

    So I was reading through the whole thread, My God.... its confusing but I am starting to understand how it works.. basically anything like factory and totems work under a humility, considering you don't put down humility while your creature is animated...


    So I understand that magus of the moon works with humility, I mean he'll end up doing the damage...which is making your non basics to mountains, and end up being a 1/1 creature....

    So I am assuming that magus of the moat works the same way...
    He will do the damage meaning creatures without flying can't attack, but end up being a 1/1 creature.. Am I right to assume this?

  20. #140

    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by f|i[p] View Post
    So I understand that magus of the moon works with humility, I mean he'll end up doing the damage...which is making your non basics to mountains, and end up being a 1/1 creature....

    So I am assuming that magus of the moat works the same way...
    He will do the damage meaning creatures without flying can't attack, but end up being a 1/1 creature.. Am I right to assume this?
    The answer lies in layers: http://mtgsalvation.com/836-cranial-...perations.html

    Humility applies in two layers; 5 for "all creatures lose all abilities", 6b for "all creatures are 1/1".

    Any effect that applies in layers 1-4 gets around "all creatures lose all abilities". Those are (1) copy, (2) control, (3) text-changing, and (4) type-changing.

    Magus of the Moon just barely sneaks under Humility's effect, in layer 4, while Magus of the Moat applies in layer 5 and has no such luck.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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