[Deck] 5c Eternal Garden

[Di]

I also have been running 1 Petrified Field MD and I've been finding that it's an excellent help when you are trying to kill via Life from the Loam/ Barbarian Ring.

Excellent choice. Glad to see you're using it. I've personally thought about it as well, but haven't ever found the room for it. It's a difficult slot to find considering it only produces colorless mana, but it's probably worth the inclusion. I'm going to tinker with the manabase some to see if I can work this in.

[Watcher487]

Excellent choice. Glad to see you're using it. I've personally thought about it as well, but haven't ever found the room for it. It's a difficult slot to find considering it only produces colorless mana, but it's probably worth the inclusion. I'm going to tinker with the manabase some to see if I can work this in.

Here's what I'm running right now. Bear in mind it's a work in process here and it's just my ideas for the deck.

1 Barbarian Ring
1 Boseiju
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Clasm
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Petrified Field
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Tabernacle
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Wasteland

2 Bayou
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Tropical Island

2 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

3 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotations

2 Pyroclasm
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Intuition
4 Burning Wish
3 Enlightened Tutor

2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
1 Life from the Loam

1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Seal of Cleansing

Now I know I lose more of the search in your deck Diablos but I personally like the Enlightened Tutors better.

[Di]

I like Enlightened Tutor as well, but in a format that demands answers immediately and not the turn after you draw E Tutor, not to mention the number of decks running Predict, it makes it seem inferior than running a full set of Intuitions.

[bigredmeanie]

I agree, If an Intuition resolves your opponent just screwed up. The same is not true of E Tutor. Im running 4 Intuition because they are never dead and essentially is a 3 mana Demonic Tutor for 3 cards, in this deck at least.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Okay, I'm hopping on to this thread rather late, but Diablos? You totally have to run this at whatever the next big tourny is, because this could seriously impact the Legacy metagame. The format needs a control deck so bad that its not even funny. I wouldn't worry about Solidarity too much since as we all know, only one person in the universe can actually pilot it decently, though I would worry about Iggy Pop. If the deck actually places high, then I think we'll see more people becoming serious about trying to develop control decks.

This is the one problem with deck-builders on The Source: There are a bunch of viable decks on the Source which in theory could impact the metagame, yet no one places high with them. Look at Faerie Stompy; it's an awesome deck that has good matchups against basically everything except Angel Stompy, yet it hasn't done anything to impact the format yet. I hope 5c Eternal Garden doesn't go the way of Faerie Stompy.

[Di]

Okay, I'm hopping on to this thread rather late, but Diablos? You totally have to run this at whatever the next big tourny is, because this could seriously impact the Legacy metagame. The format needs a control deck so bad that its not even funny. I wouldn't worry about Solidarity too much since as we all know, only one person in the universe can actually pilot it decently, though I would worry about Iggy Pop. If the deck actually places high, then I think we'll see more people becoming serious about trying to develop control decks.

Just thought I'd mention I played a version of this deck at the last Syracuse D4D. I ended up 3-3, with two of those losses to Solidarity. So don't go out and shout about and praise David Gearheart alone, because any Solidarity player is capable of beating a deck designed to mill itself away.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I was being sarcastic about the whole Solidarity thing. :)

Oh, and I know you ran this at the Duel for Duals, but as I recall, there was some major differences that made it much more ineffective.

[Watcher487]

I'm most likely going to be playing my version of this at GenCon. But I need a couple of ideas to shore up the Combo match-ups... especially since I will be going to GenCon with Herbig.

I do have an interesting food for thought on the whole Enlightened tutor thing... In the 2 games I played Goblins I had my soft lock of Clasm, Exploration, Crucible, Humility down on turn 4 both games. I am considering adding 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal over the Moat as an optional way to creature lock-out people other than Clasm/Crucible, and since all 3 kill methods get around that (Monastary, Barbarian Ring and Burning Wish/Echoes)

(Monastary gets around it because of the more recent Humility ruling, the ability of Monastary and Humility are on the same lvl so they are resolved by timestamps and since you SHOULD activate Monastary after you play Humility it becomes a 4/4 first striker but when Night of Souls' Betrayal is in play it's a 3/3 first striker.)

[Di]

At least cut Ghost Quarter for another Wasteland. The card seriously blows.

As for combo outs, look at my first post with the sideboard. It's updated with my current board, which is atleast decent against combo. It's not perfect, but it's as good as I can currently make it. I might cut Naturalize though for either another Crypt or Boil.

[EremusDuskwalker]

I have been looking at this deck since it was posted on the exploration thread, and I have a question: Enlightened tutor has been mentioned several times with people seeming to like it except for the 'wait a turn' issue. The deck uses Life From the Loam so would it viable to use cycle lands to get at the tutored card? I understand that doubles the cost of getting at the desired card but to bring a Crucible or Moat into play a turn earlier seems like it would be worth it to me. Just a thought.

[Di]

You have to keep in mind that Enlightened Tutor only searches for enchantments/artifacts. Granted, there are a lot of them to choose from, but it doesn't search for Crop Rotation, Burning Wish, and Pyroclasm. This is important because that loses the ability for tutorable removal, instant Chasm etc, and utility from Wish. Playing the deck over and over again, plus with my own testing with the Enlightened Tutor build, makes me realize that the limited searching of the tutor doesn't cut it in this deck. If you are going to run a build with split Intuition and Enlightened Tutor, I personally believe replacing tutor with card draw (or at least more Intuitions) is the right way to go. As I've repeated a couple times, I'm a large advocate of both Deep Analysis and Thirst for Knowledge. Hell, Compulsive Research even has a go in here.

However, to those who still advocate the Enlightened Tutor versions, I recommend running at least a single maindeck slot geared towards combo hate. This means cut either the 2nd Moat or pick between Humility or Moat for the creature solving slot, and use that other slot for something like Rule of Law. The deck is rough against combo, but if you can have the ability to deal with it game 1 you should use that opportunity.

Also, some people have talked to me about replacing some slots regarding budget restrictions. This is mainly in regards to Moat and Tabernacle. While both of these cards are insanely good, replacing them isn't too hard. Humility is an excellent replacement for Moat(which in fact if I don't run into a 2nd Moat, I'll be using this myself), and Tabernacle is easily switched with an additional Glacial Chasm.

[morgan_coke]

Neat deck. I was (Slowly) working my way towards something very similar.

My main question is this: If you want Horn of Greed, but can't fit it in due to worries about decking yourself, why not include some of the "Words" enchantments from Onslaught? This, combined with some Gaea's Blessings also seems like it could completely shut down Solidarity's win conditions. (Or not, they'd probably just bounce the Words before Stroking you out, but, you get the idea.)

Also, it seems like you should run a single copy of Ghost Quarter in the board. Many decks in Legacy only run 3-4 basics, and using Quarter against these decks' basics is essentially Strip Mine. It just seems silly not to use one sideboard slot to get a bunch of free wins.

The other thing I was wondering about is have you experimented with a singleton Genesis and Witness in the deck. That way you could Intuition for Witness, Tutor, X. It would also give you an out if you Intuitioned for all three Crucibles and they then destroyed the one you had in play. You could get Genesis out of your hand pretty easily with Cephalid Coliseum.

[Di]

My main question is this: If you want Horn of Greed, but can't fit it in due to worries about decking yourself, why not include some of the "Words" enchantments from Onslaught? This, combined with some Gaea's Blessings also seems like it could completely shut down Solidarity's win conditions. (Or not, they'd probably just bounce the Words before Stroking you out, but, you get the idea.)

It really isn't an issue because I won't be playing Horn of Greed anytime soon, but I'm not going to lie Words is a cool way to get around that. However, I haven't had much of a problem with decking lately, as the deck is easily capable of decking the opponent instead through Coliseum and uncounterable Haunting Echoes. The only time the deck is really close to decking itself is either an incredibly retarded control-control match, or I've(or anyone playing the deck for that matter) has played very poorly and overextended their dredge use.

Also, it seems like you should run a single copy of Ghost Quarter in the board. Many decks in Legacy only run 3-4 basics, and using Quarter against these decks' basics is essentially Strip Mine. It just seems silly not to use one sideboard slot to get a bunch of free wins.

First off, the card is just trash in this format. The only decks that run very few basics are the decks that this deck already beats. With ease. That's what Wasteland is for. So few basics already means they are dying from Wasteland. Throwing this in the sideboard requires the removal of either a wish target, all of which I don't want to remove, or an anti-combo target, making bad matchups even worse. It really isn't necessary at all.

The other thing I was wondering about is have you experimented with a singleton Genesis and Witness in the deck. That way you could Intuition for Witness, Tutor, X. It would also give you an out if you Intuitioned for all three Crucibles and they then destroyed the one you had in play. You could get Genesis out of your hand pretty easily with Cephalid Coliseum.

A possibility, but that requires slots in the deck to be switched, which is rather tight. The deck really doesn't have much of a problem with recursion though, with a md Nostalgic Dreams and a few Burning Wish to fetch them. I might also be adding a 2nd Dreams or possibly a Regrowth to the maindeck to further attribute to this. Using Witness isn't all that bad, but if it got StP'd I'd be rather pissed.

[morgan_coke]

Eh, maybe the time for secret Word tek will come. If you've got such a problem with combo, why not run Last Rites in the board? You've got the cards to discard to it, and getting hit with three-four Coercions at once should buy you quite a bit of time against most combo decks.

If you've tested it and found it lacking, then I guess nevermind, but it seems like a card that could really help you out in that matchup.

[EremusDuskwalker]

I really like the Petrified Field addition but I'm wondering if maybe we're adding too many cards that make good intuition piles but that don't add anything to the deck on their own. Sure you can grab a Field, Wasteland, and Cycle land and your opponent goes Dee-de-de but what happens when you topdeck a Petrified Field because you couldn't pull it out on your last Intuition. I was also wondering if we thought that decreasing the amount of colors in the deck was a good idea, or even an idea worth considering. I know you said you like the multi color setup Diablos, but do you have any experiance building this with less colors? I really think this deck has a lot of potential and their are even different ways to take it. Just looking for some feedback/brainstorming. Thanks

[Di]

I know you said you like the multi color setup Diablos, but do you have any experiance building this with less colors? I really think this deck has a lot of potential and their are even different ways to take it. Just looking for some feedback/brainstorming. Thanks

The build that I ran at the D4D was 3-colors, with the exception of Barbarian Ring being a "red" card. This was also a Living Wish version of the deck, which despite it's insane targets, sucks. That's because it's uility and tricks are much more situational and less useful than Burning Wish targets. I added Burning Wish to make up for not only the lack of utility slots in the deck but also a tutor slot. It fetches LftL and removal, and then it fetches Haunting Echoes; the single reason I have a black splash in the sideboard. I figured if I had wish I might as well tweak the manabase to run the best target the format has.

But if for some reason you want to see the original 3-color list, I'd be more than happy to show, despite it being inferior.

[bigredmeanie]

So I like this deck, but unfortunately I haven't been able to beat much combo of any sort with it. Except for Belcher.

It actually has a pretty good matchup against most of the decks in my meta accept for the few that will be playing combo. Mostly Solidarity and now a guy playing Iggy.

How have you guys decided to have a game against those combo decks.

[Di]

I've had the same problem as well. It's an issue that's really unavoidable, as it comes with the territory of this kind of deck. Unfortunately, I think the only solution is to stack the sideboard with lots of hate for combo. This isn't the greatest it can be I'm sure, but this is what I have for a sideboard as of now:

3 Rule of Law
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Boil
1 Hull Breach
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Sickening Dreams
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Life from the Loam
1 Cranial Extraction


I cut the Naturalize for another Crypt and I added Cranial Extraction back to the board. With Extraction back in, Burning Wish is a lot more effective game 1 against Iggy Pop, in the sense that you win if you're lucky enough to pull it off by turn 3-4. A trio of Crypts also help greatly against Iggy Pop then happen to be good against Threshold as well. Rule of Law is still there for obvious reasons, and Boil is another solution for Solidarity.

I'm still not completely satisfied with this board though, and I've been also looking for answers with Meddling Mage, Pyrostatic Pillar, Abeyance, etc, but it's difficult to figure out the configuration. This is something that has to be solved soon though, as I plan on playing in the Kaddy D4D II and I expect a good handful of combo decks to be present.

[Poron]

I didn't understand very well what's the lock of this deck? how does it win? with nantuko? ok, but it's very slow. Barbaring Ring? even worse..

Usually these decks play Solitary Conf. and some cycle lands to keep locked..
but imho it's anyway an easy matchup.. it's open to all kind of hate: grave hate, non-basic land hate, the normal counterspells, etc. etc.

[PunkRocker1134]

Why not run boiling Sea as a wish target instead of boil. This way you can also use it pre-board and it doesn't take up as much sideboard space.