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Thread: [Deck] Red Death

  1. #1
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    [Deck] Red Death

    Red Death is an aggressive deck based around heavy disruption in the early game that prevents your opponent from accomplishing their strategy, while attacking them with devastating creatures that can quickly close the game if left unchecked, ala classic Suicide Black. In an innovation over the old Suicide Black model, the deck also utilizes burn spells that are used to finish off a faltering or recovering opponent or to remove early blockers and threats.

    Red Death attacks the central resources of most decks in the format by destroying their hand and manabase. The deck can also destroy an opponent’s creatures with it's burn spells, or turn them into additional reach to finish off an opponent. When this strategy works optimally, the opponent is left trying to recover their resources while being beaten by quick, undercosted and deadly threats.

    The deck wins by accelerating it's own gameplan while delaying the opponents, through undercosted creatures, strategy-disrupting spells and fast mana. This allows for the quick death of an opponent that has no time to find answers.

    The deck’s hyper-aggressive approach to disruption and creatures often leads it to have very little of its own cards in hand and if its threats are answered it can be tough to kill an opponent in the late game. While the late game may not be a preferred position for Red Death it is by no means unwinnable. Any creatures or burn drawn in the late game can finish off an opponent that has just barely survived the intial assault.

    This deck is continuation of the Suicide Black archetype that has existed for some time in Magic. The term “Suicide” references black creatures that, while being very powerful, also have almost suicidal drawbacks associated with them. This deck is called Red Death because it is a Suicide Black that incorporated Red burn spells as a key component of its disruption. The name Red Death is a shortened reference to the short story, “The Masque of the Red Death”, by Edgar Allen Poe. While Suicide Black decks have existed for a long time many of the key elements of this deck are based on a primer written by Edward “Legend” Paltzik which can be found here and Part2.

    Red Death

    //Disruption
    4 Duress
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Sinkhole

    //Creatures
    4 Phyrexian Negator
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Hypnotic Specter
    3 Rotting Giant
    1 Wretched Anurid

    //Removal and Reach
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning

    //Mana and Lands
    7 Swamp
    3 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Wasteland
    4 Dark Ritual

    //Sideboard
    3 Jitte
    3 Tormod’s Crypt
    4 Engineered Plague
    1 Darkblast
    4 Dystopia


    Other key resources for understanding this deck are available –

    The Red Death Primer
    Retired Red Death thread
    Suicide Black thread
    Tournament Report by Anwar Ahmad from The Mana Leak Open 2
    Tournament Report by Zohar Bhagat from Duel for Duals 3
    Tournament Report by Eric Darland at a side event at Nationals

    This deck has generated many questions and many of them are part of a heated discussion such as –

    Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?

    Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?

    Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?

    Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?

    Does it play enough creatures?

    Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?

    Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?

    Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?

    Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?
    Last edited by AnwarA101; 10-30-2007 at 11:12 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?

    No, but another creature might be accelptable.

    Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?

    Maybe. Giant is good, and there are other options for 2cc creatures.

    Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?

    No, Crypt is better.

    Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?

    Yes, it's better than therapy.

    Does it play enough creatures?

    There are an adequate number, but more might be a good thing, especially to support Jitte.

    Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?

    Why aren't you beating combo already?

    Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?

    I think they are both acceptable options. The best solution would be to increase the number of sources by one.

    Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?

    Well, you can't add any more fetches, so I think it's good.

    Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?

    Yes.

  3. #3
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?

    No, the deck already runs just enough creatures to support SB Jitte and Therapy.

    Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?

    Yes, I believe so. Most of the time it costs me 4-5 life, which is simply unacceptable for a mere 3/3.
    Myself, I like to maindeck 2 Withered Wretches in place of the Anurid and the fourth Shade, but that's because I see a lot of Loam decks around

    Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?

    Yes, you can't afford to not draw disruption against combo.

    Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?

    Yes, control decks can be a tough matchup, and most of them rely on Crucible or Loam, or both.
    It's not needed to fight Threshold, but since the deck is so popular, increasing your chances can't be bad. Although once Tarmogoyf gets in the deck, Crypting them could actually be counterproductive.

    Does it play enough creatures?

    When you face combo, it feels as if you never draw enough disruption; when you face control, it feels as if you never draw enough creatures. You have to strike a balance somewhere. If I wanted a seventeenth creature, I'd move one Duress to the sideboard.

    Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?

    Against combo, you don't need even more hate cards that cost mana; if you wanted to add anything, they should be some Chalices (to be set at 0). Against Angel Stompy, Dystopia is more than enough. Faerie Stompy is generally not worth sideboarding for, thanks to Sea Drakes' cost.

    A growing presence of Affinity may be the only reason to try Null Rod. I'd start by cutting the SB Darkblast, which I've always hated anyway.

    Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?

    I prefer the current configuration, but at a huge tourney I could see why one would try to minimize the risk of mana screw.

    Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?

    I like to run a 4th Badlands, cutting a Swamp. Opponents hate to Wasteland me when I have the tempo advantage, i.e. almost always.

    Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?

    Yes.
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  4. #4
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?

    I think they are both acceptable options. The best solution would be to increase the number of sources by one.
    This is a very difficult question.
    I tend to be manaflooded indeed, running the normal configuration of 21 lands.
    So upping the count is not the best solution (to me).
    Drawing lands (black mana sources) is good if you have shade on the table and a good position. Otherwise you need the land to cast something or you topdeck a land which may be crap.
    Changing one wasteland to a swamp leads to much more stable hands.
    There were so many opening hands with just one wasteland and a fetchland/black mana producing land that I could cry.


    Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?

    Well, you can't add any more fetches, so I think it's good.
    You are absolutely right!
    I want to run as many fetchlands as possible!
    Sadly I dont have a playset of Mires and Deltas (missing some Delatas).
    Therefore I run 4 Badlands which works pretty good up to now.
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?
    Yup, Anurid sux!

    Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?
    Gobbos and Affinity must be founded in ANY meta, so the answer is "Yes".

    Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?
    No, Maindeck, replacing Duress.

    Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?
    Crypt is insane and his picture PwNs!

    Does it play enough creatures?
    Not nescessary.

    Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?
    Against Affinity and Faerie Stompy is nice, but i don't like it versus Combo. CotV is better.

    Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?
    -2 Fetchlands
    -2 Swamp
    +1 Wasteland
    +3 Urborg

    Problem solved! ^^

    Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?
    I liked this configuration with the changes there I showed before.

    Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?

    In my opinion, nope.

  6. #6
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?
    Certainly.

    Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?
    Yep, at least in my meta (Brazil).

    Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?
    Actually I always use Cabal Therapy and Duress MD, in a total of 6 or 7 slots. It's because I dont like Sinkhole too much, but it's a good card for sure.

    Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?
    Certainly. Withered Wretch or Planar Void could still be useful if you're afraid of chalices or needles.

    Does it play enough creatures?
    14 - 17 is a good number, so yeah.

    Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?
    CotV is much better against combo, but Null Rod is very good against affinity. It's a tough call.

    Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?
    + 1 Wasteland
    - 1 Delta

    Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?
    I'd run this configuration : 6 fetches ( 4 mire, 2 delta ), 4 wastes and 4 badlands

    Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?
    Unfortunately I dont think so.


    @Fuzzy : OMG, what are you doing here ?? Good se ya.
    Last edited by maurobad2k4; 04-26-2007 at 03:46 PM. Reason: typos

  7. #7
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?

    No. Threats >> Burn.

    Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?

    No, but I've never felt that was the debate about Anurid. I feel the debate about Anurid is whether it's optimal. I won't argue for a second that it's viable.

    Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?
    Depends on your meta. I don't think it improves a lot of matches.

    Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?
    It needs some answer to Loam Control.

    Does it play enough creatures?
    No, but it can't really fit any more in.

    Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?
    I think so. That covers a lot of tough matchups right there.

    Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?
    Considering I think I was the first to suggest going down to 3 Wastelands and the deck packs a billion spells that don't have a colorless mana symbol anywhere on them, I say no.

    Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?
    Anwar's version will be, due in large part to playskill and sixteen dark rituals. I wouldn't be astonished to see it top eight, as I think it'll be piloted by a surprising number of people, but if I had to guess, I'd say it won't unless it masters beating Threshold and Control consistently in the next week or so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  8. #8
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Wretched Anurid, while he can be a liability sometimes (i.e. against goblins) is still a very efficient threat in most other match-ups. While people seem to think there is a viable alternative to him, I fail to see one (maybe running the 4th rotting giant, but that seems too risky...you want to not have conditional threats). The 4th chain lightning is interesting but also makes me weary going to 15 creatures with jitte coming in out of the board. I've tried so hard to find another creature for this slot but I simply think anurid is as good as it's going to get.

    Are people trying to suggest withered wretch in his place? This has been attempted and I think the results were poor. He is great in some matchups but just a bear in most others. A 2/2 is simply not going to generate the pressure that this deck needs to end the game fast. Plus he is a mana whore, and we already run 4 shades. Remember the goals of the deck: disrupt your opponent and end the game quickly with the time that you bought yourself. Wretch does not do this, and we also have crypt from the board.

    I personally think the 8th fetchland is ideal. Three wastelands and 4 sinkholes is a good land d package and the additional fetch also helps to feed giant and thin out your deck more (it's not too significant but every percentage point counts).

    Personally I also believe that the sideboard is the most controversial part of this deck. I'm trying to stray away from having a 1-of, but darkblast is fine there if you want to run it (I suggested it as a one of because it acts as a redundant piece of removal and is great with e.plague against gobs). I've been toying around with -1 darkblast, -1 dystopia, and +2 engineered explosives (and I think Anwar is trying 2 cabal therapy in that slot), so maybe that will be effective. I like explosives because it is versatile, and helps in matchups like affinity and grow where you can hit lots of targets at once (plus it clears away needles and vials, which seems good).

    That's my take on the deck. Good writeup, Anwar. I strongly recommend that if you want to play this deck you also read Legend's primer. Some of the concepts (ie the metagame references) are dated, but the general strategy of the deck and why things like 2/2 creatures should not be used is explained beautifully.
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Two questions:

    1- Why not Dark Confidant?
    2- Tabernacle against Aggro isn't good?

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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    Two questions:

    1- Why not Dark Confidant?
    2- Tabernacle against Aggro isn't good?
    The reason Dark Confidant is not in the deck is covered in the two previous threads which are linked in the opening post.

    Tabernacle affects your creatures as well and its a land that produces no mana. I'm not sure it makes much sense in this deck. Would you care to explain further?

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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    Two questions:

    1- Why not Dark Confidant?
    2- Tabernacle against Aggro isn't good?
    1 - Dark confidant causes tempo loss in a deck that abuses tempo. He also isn't very hot against goblins. However, SexyRector did use a build with confidant to great success, so it might be a preference thing (but I think you have to be gay for the card as well).

    2 - are you suggesting we run tabernacle? I'm not quite sure I understand this.

    edit - Damn, Anwar is too fast for me apparently...
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  12. #12
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    @Fuzzy: Tabernacle has no place in any aggro deck, for what I hope are very very obvious reasons. Dark Confidant doesn't have a place in this aggro deck, for reasons which are a bit less obvious (basically, you don't want the game to last long enough for Confidant to gain you enough advantage).
    Regarding this, Anwar, I'd suggest you explain in the opening post why Bob isn't useful in this deck, since the question will undoubtedly keep popping up.

    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9 View Post
    Are people trying to suggest withered wretch in his place? This has been attempted and I think the results were poor. He is great in some matchups but just a bear in most others.
    Yeah, I'm not advocating Wretch for everyone. I like to play him because, as I said, I see a lot of Loam-based decks. He's also fairly good against Threshold decks, and obviously he hurts Ichorid, but that's it.

    I still think a singleton Street Wraith should be worth testing. If I had the option to play another Negator or Specter which costs an additional 2 life to play, I probably would give it a try.

    As for the sideboard, I'll join you in your hate of Darkblast, but I can't understand why you'd cut a Dystopia. That card is the stone cold nuts in so many different matchups, and most of them are tough and/or have ways to remove one (Threshold, Angel Stompy, hell, even many builds of Truffle Shuffle and Angel Stax are hurt by it).
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil View Post
    I still think a singleton Street Wraith should be worth testing. If I had the option to play another Negator or Specter which costs an additional 2 life to play, I probably would give it a try.
    I would prefer if suggestions from Future Sight could be absent from this thread until after the Grand Prix. Everyone who will look at this deck won't want suggestions that are not legal for the GP including me. After the GP, there will be plenty of time to discuss the cards in Future Sight.

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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Ok, ok, Dark Confidant isn't good...

    I'm sugesting Tabernacle because I saw in many Homebrew's lists, and I did not understand why one deck similar, that he has less Land Destruction in function of the speed would not use.

    Anyway, against Gobbos, Tabernacle > Plague IMHO.

  15. #15
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?
    Hell no. The last creature you want to see in this deck is Wretched Anurid, why in the HELL would you want to increase your chances of seeing that guy? Why is he the last creature you want to see? Siege-Gang Commander = Lose 5 Life, Decree of Justice = Lose X Life, Cavern Harpy = Lose The Game

    Is Wretched Anurid too much of a liability to be run in a modern Legacy metagame?
    I think in most cases, Raging Oni Slave would be a better choice, since it's a modest loss of 3 life.

    Should the deck sideboard Cabal Therapy?
    Yes, I think it's a better sideboard choice vs. Gro and Combo than Tormod's Crypt.

    Does it need Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard?
    No, I don't think it helps you enough against Combo and I don't think it's that stong against Gro.

    Does it play enough creatures?
    Sometimes. It all depends on your opening hand.

    Is Null Rod a possible sideboard card to fight storm combo as well as equipment based decks and Affinity?
    Null Rod isn't very good against Angel Stompy, even worse against Faerie Stompy, and Affinity is a non-issue in the current Legacy Metagame. Null Rod also sucks against IGGy Pop (see what happened in Round 2 & 3) and is even less effective against TES.

    Is the 4th Wasteland better than the 18th black source?
    I didn't realize there was a problem finding black mana in Red Death. I'd say keep all the disruption pieces as 4-ofs.

    Is the Land configuration optimal between Badlands and fetchalnds?
    There's no reason to run more than 3 Badlands. Seriously, can someone think of a good reason you'd want the full compliment of Badlands in a deck that has a light splash of Red?

    Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?
    I would prefer it if such theorizing could be absent from this thread until after the Grand Prix. Cart before the horse, counting chicks before they hatch, [INSERT CLICHE HERE]. They only way we'll know if it's a serious contender at the GP is if it's a serious contender at the GP.
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Quote Originally Posted by URABAHN View Post
    Is this deck a serious contender at the upcoming Grand Prix in Columbus?
    I would prefer it if such theorizing could be absent from this thread until after the Grand Prix. Cart before the horse, counting chicks before they hatch, [INSERT CLICHE HERE]. They only way we'll know if it's a serious contender at the GP is if it's a serious contender at the GP.
    Haha, you got it my friend. It was just a possible avenue for discussing the deck. I was wondering if I would be the only one playing it next month!

  17. #17
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Quote Originally Posted by URABAHN View Post
    Should the deck run the 4th Chain Lightning over Wretched Anurid?
    Hell no. The last creature you want to see in this deck is Wretched Anurid, why in the HELL would you want to increase your chances of seeing that guy? Why is he the last creature you want to see? Siege-Gang Commander = Lose 5 Life, Decree of Justice = Lose X Life, Cavern Harpy = Lose The Game
    Maybe its just me but that doesn't make any sense at all, are you saying chain lightning should be in over Anruid or should it be left in? I don't think anyone is advocating adding more Anruids.

  18. #18

    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    again, I don't see the penalty for running 1 extra rotting giant, of course playing 8 fetches. The way I see it, there is enough fodder to support 2 rotting giants 85% of the time. Also, I haven't really had 2 giants on the table more than once. There are still people saying that this configuration is wrong, but since I play in a area with lots of tribal decks: goblins, elves, zombies, WIZARDS (this deck is actually good) etc, so anurid is very very bad.

  19. #19
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    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Quote Originally Posted by blackguard90 View Post
    again, I don't see the penalty for running 1 extra rotting giant, of course playing 8 fetches. The way I see it, there is enough fodder to support 2 rotting giants 85% of the time. Also, I haven't really had 2 giants on the table more than once. There are still people saying that this configuration is wrong, but since I play in a area with lots of tribal decks: goblins, elves, zombies, WIZARDS (this deck is actually good) etc, so anurid is very very bad.

    Yes, that depends much on the metagame. But I don't think Anurid is bad IMO. We just run one of them and he's fat. Course, he has a drawback and so does Negator but, the deck is called Suicide after all....to play suicide, you must have balls, like Anwar did when he dropped 2 more big aliens on the same game that his first got sharpnel blasted. And honestly, by the times that Anurid made me loose so much life, I was already in a bad position and about to loose the game anyway.

    Also, good to see the number of brazilians increasing here
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  20. #20

    Re: [DTW] Red Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemuria View Post
    Yes, that depends much on the metagame. But I don't think Anurid is bad IMO. We just run one of them and he's fat. Course, he has a drawback and so does Negator but, the deck is called Suicide after all....to play suicide, you must have balls, like Anwar did when he dropped 2 more big aliens on the same game that his first got sharpnel blasted. And honestly, by the times that Anurid made me loose so much life, I was already in a bad position and about to loose the game anyway.

    Also, good to see the number of brazilians increasing here
    but you don't control anurid's drawback. For gator, you choose to WHAT to sac, for giant, you choose to remove, for something like fleshreaver, you choose to lose (life, although he might cause you to lose ) but for anurid, your opponent tells you how much you lose, which is BAD! You don't want to be wining, then suddenly the goblin player vials out a siege gang, then plays matron and vials out another siege gang, when your holding a chain lighhtning and he's at 2.

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