[Deck] Red Death

[Begle1]

I'm loving the tempo interaction between targeted discard spells, Monastery Swiftspear and Goblin Guide in Modern.

In Legacy I keep trying to splash enough blue for Force of Will... Cabal Therapy, Young Pyromancer, Monastery Swiftspear and Gitaxian Probe are such a great synorgy as well. But I guess that deck is Grixis Delver.

[echofish]

I can confirm. This deck is insane.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

I can confirm. This deck is insane.

Which deck? @ironclad8690's list?

(BTW, how/why did this thread go from 2009 to present day in only 4 posts!)

[ironclad8690]

Yeah I think echofish is playing my list or close to it. I wanted to play something that was more consistent and had more game against combo than jund, and even though it doesnt have blue I wanted to play "aggro control". This is very close to Grixis Delver, which is arguably better, but this deck has more reach and removal.

[echofish]

Maybe start a new primer? Red Death 2.0?

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I like the list, just think it would run better with -2 chain lightning and +4 forked bolt. For your matchups vs. combo and miracles you could SB Phyrexian Negator or Flesh Reaver, to establish a fast clock, just an idea.

[TLK]

Once I acquire the remaining cards I need, I'm going to give this deck a try. Looks fun and powerful.

[ironclad8690]

Sweet, yes definitely give it a try. I am struggling to beat decks that go slightly bigger and draw things out into the late game while outclassing the creatures. TNN has been a defining factor in deck construction, as it is the reason I have included Diabolic Edict (which in theory should only be taking out their bigger creatures, by virtue of killing the smaller ones with bolts). The problem with edict is that it doesn't always guarantee you hit that Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary, which really makes me feel the pain of having to run such specific removal to navigate the various fair decks of the format.

[ceustice]

What do you guys think of Ghastly Demise instead of Diabolic Edict or along side it to dill with the larger targets.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Well, in addition to an Edict, statistically, you're going to see a Hymn to Tourach, a Cabal Therapy, a Thoughtseize, a Lightning Bolt and a Chain Lightning in your first 15 cards. That's an awful lot of removal for both big and small stuff, thereby allowing the Edict to take out the remaining troublemaker. Also, again in theory, the difference in 1 versus 2 cmc gets less important every turn. Not unimportant, but less important.

How many cards do you typically have in your graveyard on Turns 3 and 4? Enough for a reanimated/show Griselbrand or Iona or Emrakul? Replacing an Edict with a Demise runs the risk of their fattie being too big to remove, not to mention the "nonblack" issue. What if you need to hit a DRS or a Bob or a Tombstalker or a Tasigur or the aforementioned Grisel?

[ironclad8690]

Well, in addition to an Edict, statistically, you're going to see a Hymn to Tourach, a Cabal Therapy, a Thoughtseize, a Lightning Bolt and a Chain Lightning in your first 15 cards. That's an awful lot of removal for both and small stuff, thereby allowing the Edict to take out the remaining troublemaker. Also, again in theory, the difference in 1 versus 2 cmc gets less important every turn. Not unimportant, but less important.

How many cards do you typically have in your graveyard on Turns 3 and 4? Enough for a reanimated/show Griselbrand or Iona or Emrakul? Replacing an Edict with a Demise runs the risk of their fattie being too big to remove, not to mention the "nonblack" issue. What if you need to hit a DRS or a Bob or a Tombstalker or a Tasigur or the aforementioned Grisel?

Good point, I think Edict might be the best way to go, all things considered (NPR anyone?)

So, I think that maybe the issue isn't our threats being outclassed, but rather no way to dig for more threats like the Delver decks do. In lieu of this, maybe we should up our threat count? I was thinking of maybe playing 3 Prophetic Flamespeaker, but I have also experimented with a Tombstalker and a couple Gatekeeper of Malakir taking a leaf out of "The Gate"'s book.

Can you guys think of any sweet creatures 13-15? Maybe Pack Rat?

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Showing your age there, @ironclad8690, but I'm sure Mr. Siegel would approve!

[Brentane]

First time seeing this deck, and I am liking it quite a bit.

[ironclad8690]

Today I experimented by adding Deathrite Shaman. It provides the ability to tempo out sooner (you want to play monastery and pyro before you cast the majority of your spells), as well as giving you something else that doesnt die to zealous persecution and late game reach. I cut the Thoughtseize for it, though I am not sure if this is right. Also been experimenting with a single Tombstalker, but I cant decide if I like it or not.

[wcm8]

Tasigur, the Golden Fang could easily make the cut as a 1 or 2-of. This deck seems to throw enough cards in the graveyard that casting him for 1 or 2 mana shouldn't be hard to do that often.

Liking how this deck seems to be shaping up.

Blood Moon and/or Price of Progress should definitely find their way in the sideboard for non-basic heavy matchups.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

@ironclad8690 (and others) when you say you've been "experimenting" with different ideas, is that in real life with friends or online? How do you test against each of the established decks?

[ironclad8690]

I test on Cockatrice. Maybe not the best method, but it is pretty much the only feasible way for me.

[echofish]

I think more 1 cmc discard spells is better then Hymn to trigger Swiftspear and Pyromancer. Also double black is not that easy to get. I have also cut Wasteland because the mana base is not very stable in my experience, with no cantrips.

4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

2 Pyroblast
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Arid Mesa
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Electrickery
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Murderous Cut

[Begle1]

Thoughts:

1: Fire Covenant is very good against opposing creature decks, for either card advantage and for clearing blockers. I don't know why at least two would't belong in every 75.

(1.5: Fire Covenant makes me want to play Boros Reckoner for the super-jank aspect.)

2: Delve spells are the flavor of the month, but I think it's good to value them versus the one-man Punishing Fire engine, Mr. Grim Lavamancer.

3: Most versions of this deck I'm seeing are very vulnerable to Chalice of the Void at 1... Rakdos Charm may be the best (perhaps main-deckable?) answer to it.

4: For reach, there's an ideological divide on whether it's better to curve out at 3 (or even 2!?) with 16-19 lands or 4 with 18-22 lands... I'm considering Prophetic Flamespeaker in the 3-drop (in a deck running 8+ burn spells) and Chandra, Pyromaster as a 4-drop. I also think Hellrider is worth discussion as a 4-drop finisher, with his synergy with lots of creatures (ie lots of Young Pyromancer tokens). It's probably safe to say Legacy is too fast to curve out at 5 with Thundermaw Hellkite...

5: I don't like mixing Hymn to Tourach with a Thoughtseize/ Duress/ Inquisition and Cabal Therapy package... Once you have the mass of cards to consistently follow a T/D/I with Cabal Therapy, the Hymns become "too much discard". (In the match-ups where it's possible to have "too much discard"... Against Storm and assorted combo, Hymns may be sideboard worthy)

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

You guys shouls start a new thread for this deck. This deck is not a true Red Death deck, which is suppose to be Suicide black splashed with red for the lightning spells. You guys truly have an "original" great deck here and it deserves its own name and thread, but it is not Red Death.