I just tested 5 games against flash today, which I won 4 of. Speaking of SB if you cut jittes, you weaken your goblin match-up slightly. but here is my board:
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Leyline of the Void
4x E. Plague (if goblin is as gone as you say, then the only reason would be for ETW, maybe Echoing Decay?)
4x Dystopia (owns tarmogoyf and gang)
I might have got lucky, but the flash player only set off once on turn 1.
Last edited by T is for TOOL; 05-02-2007 at 08:33 PM. Reason: Off-topic part deleted.
Removing Goblins and replacing it with a faster and more consistent combo deck that can still win through hate as early as turn 0-2 is hardly "changes and balance" for the format. It's format warping on a very high and broken level.
I don't see any good reasoning to allow that combo deck to exist in this format without completely changing the format to literally be vintage-light
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
I don't think Goblins will dissapear, I just said that they will loose their crown, so I woldn't remove e. plague for my sb.
It never existed and will never exists an invencible deck. If Urbahan said it's true, then Landstill has a favorite match against Hulk Flash. Some decks has a favorite match againt Landstill and that's the way.
I think it's too early to take any conclusions. As I said, I don't think that this is the apocalypse, but some tests and practice will find the answers and the hate that it needs.
Last edited by Lemuria; 05-02-2007 at 11:13 PM.
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
If I was playing Red Death I wouldn't really worry about Hulk Flash at this point, since most of the time it does take them a few turns to set up. This usually gives you enough time to find your disruption spells in order to foil their plan to go off.
The only combo decks that pose a real problem I would have to say is either TES if they get a strong hand and can go off early, and CRET Belcher b/c they can consistently go off on turns 1 and 2. These are decks I wouldn't focus too much attention on, because they are a small part of the metagame.
I would still focus most of my attention on the aggro matchups, as they seem to be the ones that is difficult to win without a appropriate sideboard.
Last edited by Shriekmaw; 05-03-2007 at 01:59 PM.
~Shriek~
The only pre-board match-up that I am completely worried about is UGR thresh. This is mainly because of 2 things:
1. Tarmogoyf
2. Efficient burn (even fire/ice can kill 2 shades or a hyppy)
Tarmogoyf is absolutely a pain in the ass, as nothing short of 2 bolts can kill him, and he blocks all of your guys, and double blocks gator. Dystopia is a very nice card here.
As for aggro, goblins isn't a problem because of the 45-50% preboard match-up and even better post board. The cards in goblins that ruin your day are goblin ringleader and matron, keep them off these and you'll be fine.
I really wouldn't worry about Tarmogoyf for the GP.
Kinda hard to worry about a card when it won't be legal.
~Shriek~
I don't only care about the GP and I know the card won't be legal. Tarmogoyf by itself makes me cringe. The card is unkillable short of 2 bolts, which was different than werebear because it took them a few turns to develop it into a 4/4. When tarmogoyf hits the table, its a 3/4 at least and grows to as big as a 5/6 at times.
What worries you that much? For red death, there isn't really any deck that can make it roll over, like solidarity against rifter. The only thing to consider is the sideboard. Do we want more protection against hulk flash? Do we need 4x leyline of the void? Also, is it wise to cut jittes for cabal therapy in favor of combo, because 4 e.plagues are enough.
What about Leyline? I think it's an great addition against thresh and combo decks, maybe even better then crypt. Assuming that you will mulligan till you get one in your hand, it's uncounterable and also, stiffle does nothing against it. By the time that they will draw a disenchant spell, it buys you a good time to disrupt them enough.
What dou you guys think? Maybe worth trying?
(I'm not considering Hulk Flash. Leyline will be a must when this deck becomes legal)
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
Leyline is good against Thresh, but not so good against Tarmogoyf. You're running fetchlands, sorceries, instants, and creatures of your own. Even without their own yard, a turn 2 Tarmogoyf is likely to be 2/3, and it will only get bigger from there as the game progresses.
From what I have heard about testing thats gone on for GP legal versions the deck is still very good getting turn 1 and 2 kills way too often and still has a possibility for a turn 0 win, so you do have to have some answers to the deck for the GP, assuming it isn't errated/banned between now and the GP.
The metagame at the GP, at least at the top tables, will force very low casting costs. Given this, it might make sense to cut the LD elements and focus a bit more on the hand. Sinkhole could become Unmask, and Wasteland could be cut for two swamps and two something or the other else- while I know Anwar's not a fan of Dark Confidant, playing with and against the deck I found that he was very good, combined with discard, at keeping Flash down.
Alternately, you could fit in main Jittes. Not only is Jitte good against other aggro decks, but with two counters it can stop the Kiki kill, which will be the harder one to disrupt as it has more room for protection, and with four counters it can put you out of Disciple range.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Testing against Flash, Sinkhole and Wasteland were absolutely horrible. Wasteland was worse than swamp, and Sinkhole was only good on the play, and only about half the time even so. One or more of these slots definitely needs to go. Any hand without Duress or 2x Hymn was not good enough. Extirpate or Therapy or Unmask would all be good substitutes.
yes, but sinkholes and wastelands give red death the edge it needs against threshold, because their land count is low and almost all of their lands can be killed. In general, sinkhole, wasteland with hymn can easily mana screw or color screw an opponent. Without sinkholes and wastes, this deck would probably be 30-35% preboard against thresh and fish variants. Extirpate can be considered, but its only place is against combo, and adding more discard spells might upset the balance. Because if the deck goes into midgame, you would be getting a lot of dead cards.
Maybe 4x leyline main deck? (no good against goblins etc, but kills iggy, pre FS thresh, and flash dead!)
I always found Sinkhole and Wasteland to be terrible against Threshold. Since, y'know, their mana curve tops out at 2.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
And because land destruction jus helps feed threshold. Occasionally a first turn Wasteland can really screw up the rest of their game, but aside from that, I agree that land destruction is pretty terrible against them.
Sinkhole is pretty terrible against most things. It's bad against Hulk Flash, and it's dismal against Goblins. Land destruction is only really useful when it comes in 3's or 4's, in my experience. If Sinkhole is backed by both Wasteland and Vindicate, then it can effectively shut down a lot of decks. Without the additional land destruction, it's utterly awful on its own.
I think the deck would benefit a great deal (particularly against Flash) by dropping the Sinks and Wastes and focusing on a more aggressive strategy. As Jack mentioned, Jitte is quite good against the KJ version of the combo, assuming you live long enough to use it. Unmask or Cabal Therapy would be good replacements for Sinkhole, as they're useful against Flash, Thresh, and Goblins.
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
I'd play Cabal Therapy over unmask. Taking away 2 of their combo piees>taking only one.
Yup. I've been testing 4 Therapy over Sinkhole, 1 Swamp, 1 Tomb of Urami, and 2 Jittes over Wasteland, and Confidant over Chain Lightning and the single Anurid. Against Flash, it's pretty solid. I won't say it's definitively positive, because there are far too many Flash builds out there to say that it's good against all of them, but it's decent against some.
Therapy is good in conjunction with Duress, but without it there are times I wish it were Unmask. It's very, very important to get key cards out of Flash's hand as early as possible, perferably on turn 1. Unmask allows for that, but it costs you card advantage, and you usually have to pitch a threat to it, which means a slower clock and a higher chance your opponent can recover.
It feels kind of weird splashing red only for Bolt in the main, but with Goblins being less of a concern and instant speed actually be relevant in terms of stopping or slowing the Kiki form of Flash combo, I felt it was correct to forego the Chain Lightnings in lieu of Confidants, which not only draw you into more disruption, but give you more creatures to sac to Therapy when necessary.
Jitte is surprisingly good against Flash combo, in that it can be used to remove Karmic Guide against the one version and to gain life against the other. It's also solid in the Goblins matchup.
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