Has anyone tried out Flesh Reaver? It seems like Negs is the only super clock we have agaisnt HF. Keeping the Chain Lightnings in to compliment the reavers will be a lot of damage if you can survive the first ocuple turns.
Now playing real formats.
current builds of threshold run 17 mana (6-8 fetches) correct? I had a lot of games where I won because I mana screwed them. I don't care if you have a mongoose out when I have 8 points of power, and I also don't advocate cutting sinks and wastelands because they don't suck if you can keep thresh off a color, and again, although most of their things are 1 mana or 2 mana, if you can keep them at 1, you should do OK. Don't tell me sinkholes and wastelands don't win games, because they steal games against almost any deck, even a deck like threshold with a low curve (low land count, so this works to your advantage, sometimes they have 1 brainstorm and 1 land, and if they can't brain anything, they lose.)
We all talked about reaver already, the lifeloss is ver significant, so right now there is no place for him.
You realize your arguing a meta game call with Godzilla right? No offense but you just powered up an account a month ago. His arguements are completely justified whereas your simply stubborn to change. I realize Sinkholes are expensive. I have 3 minty beta ones I wanna smash lands with them just as bad as you. The thing is they just dont carry their worth in dollars anymore. The card is terrible against Goblins, bad against Thresh, and horrendous against Loam decks. Hulk Flash will literally stand on their chair in hysterics when you Sinkhole them and win anyways. Tendrils could give a shit about a land drop and in the mirror matches you should be casting Hymn instead.
You really need Vindicate to complement the strategy or else it falls short and only produces a turns worth of attrition. Of course you can get really lucky with a mana screwed opponent but you should just be making that trade with Wasteland so not to take up a spell for the turn.
Rather than tear Wasteland out of the deck I think swapping to Rishadin Port would be the better call. That way we have the taxing effect of port against decks that are light on resources but we dont have a useless card in the face of basic lands.
Now playing real formats.
I'm sorry.... you just had to trigger me posting here. Yes, they run 17 Lands, but guess what? They also run 12 1cc Cantrips if they do run 17 Lands. That means it's going to be very hard to mana screw them. I know I've beaten Red Death and Homebrew like crazy before.
Wait... so you mulligan the hell out of your deck just to try and mana screw Thresh? Good luck going to 3 cards then. You win by disurpting them small effects, and winning the big game with fatties. Mana screw doesnt beat Thresh, it merely slows them down so your win conditions become effective, because the more time they have, the more likely they will outclass your win conditions with theirs. In short, win now, or dont win at all.I had a lot of games where I won because I mana screwed them. I don't care if you have a mongoose out when I have 8 points of power, and I also don't advocate cutting sinks and wastelands because they don't suck if you can keep thresh off a color, and again, although most of their things are 1 mana or 2 mana, if you can keep them at 1, you should do OK.
They have Portent and Serum Visions. Another favorite thing I like to do against Red Death is call Wasteland with early Needles.Don't tell me sinkholes and wastelands don't win games, because they steal games against almost any deck, even a deck like threshold with a low curve (low land count, so this works to your advantage, sometimes they have 1 brainstorm and 1 land, and if they can't brain anything, they lose.)
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Have people considered removing Sinkhole and Wasteland and replacing them with Magus of the Moon and Simian Spirit Guide? The amount of acceleration and threats increase and the soft lock replaces the rest of the mana denial, since Wasteland is 1 one for 1 and Sinkhole is awful against Daze, it seems solid, and there's 4 more Blood Moon in the SB.
The red is a splash. Why add a RED accelerant for a RED splash? Red Death needs one Badland to accommodate all of its red, so I cannot possibly see ANY use in replacing a land, which can be useful sometimes, with an accelerant, especially when there is little to accelerate (Dark Ritual is strictly better in Red Death). Besides: Wasteland > Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon vs Affinity, one of Red Death's worst matchups.
On the topic of Daze: True, Sinkhole sucks against Daze. However, this can be fixed by: Targeting an Island; Using a Duress turn 1, Sinkhole turn 2; Not boarding in Sinkhole anyway.
Both points are valid.
In Legacy, many many decks will try to get by with as little lands as possible. 4 Sinkhole and 4 Wasteland can be enough disruption to basically win you the game. These aren't meant as a strategy of totally denying your opponent resources, like Pox and Stax do, these are just ways to put your opponent behind in turns, maintain that advantage and also possibly turn their great hand into a bad one because they don't draw lands.
On the other hand, 8 different cards like these can be totally dead draws later on, when you are hoping to top-deck and the game has gone awry. Having 12 set cards, as in B/W do, that can take out lands as well as a Confidant to help draw more is much more effective at this kind of disruption. You get nice starts and can set them back extremely far with cards such as Dark Ritual, Duress and then Sinkhole is always a good start if they don't lead with the fetch.
But really, it just depends on the pilot, I personally favor playing with these cards, as well as Confidant, but if I were to take them out for more damaging spells, maybe Incinerate or another burn spell or main-deck Jitte's I don't think I wouldn't mind not seeing them. There is no reason not to run wasteland, but Sinkhole could be easily replaced. I will say this though, in Pox just drawing one Sinkhole and using it can be enough to win the game, as so many decks try to run as little land as possible. Maybe I'm just a fan of blowing up stuff. God I love these colors.
FTW
Because turn one Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon is as good as GG against aggro-control and control, and Simian Spirit Guide is still a useful top deck as a 3 for a 2/2 creature when Sinkhole and Wasteland are useless.
If Hulk Flash pushes the metagame towards combo and aggro-control, then Chalice of the Void and Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon could clean up on their curves and mana bases.
It's also possible that SSG could just replace one of the other creatures, because it's a creature itself, and turn one Confidants and turn two Specters recoup the card disadvantage.
I just top 4'd a PTQ with this deck and wound up losing to CRET belcher. He won the die roll but I am confidant if I had played first I would have won (my hand was retarded but only if I was on the play). Anyway, I played 3 hulk flash decks and beat 2 of them pretty thoroughly. The one I didn't beat was when he had enough cantrips in hand to hide his combo pieces/find them through my hand disruption, both games. Lim-dul's vault is a bitch and I'm still trying to find a solution to it. I also played against solidarity, and red-based loam control in the top 8.
they haunt minds...
Gratz, yeah that happens man. Its always who ever goes first. So did you lose 0-2 against belcher?
@Bane of the Living:
No, i'm not stubborn, but i don't see anything that would make the deck better by cutting wastelands and sinkholes.
Sorry, but i think Rashidian port is absolutely retarded in a bad way. Port is only effective early game, and it is absolutely anti-synergistic with your whole deck. Your going to be playing dark rit->threat or discard spells before your opponent plays their cards, so why the hell do you want to spend 2 lands on locking them for a turn when you can waste a land and play a duress?
Sinkholes combined with wastelands can steal games from any competitive deck in legacy. For the most part, yeah they suck against goblins. I will emphasize my point again, Sinkholes and Wastelands STEAL GAMES and makes sure your opponent can't play big threats likes mystic enforcers and Flametongue kavus. They complement your strategy very well, because you want to keep your opponent from playing blockers or removal while you beat down.
if you tested the deck more, you will realize that it doesn't suck against everything you say it does. Hulk flash isn't a bad match-up, unless they kill you turn 1, and its even better after you side in 4x leyline and 3x cabal therapies.
Also, you DON'T NEED TO MANASCREW YOUR OPPONENTS! The wastelands and sinkholes act as semi-timewalks for you by giving you a turn of peace and quiet while you smash in for another turn. These cards get rid of things bothering you also: like a tapped wasteland, rashidian port, maze of ith etc. They have many capabilities aside from mana denial. This is why they make the deck better.
Can you honestly say that you can add 8x "cards that are better" to improve the decks performance against thresh (40%) and goblins (50%) or even hulk flash? When there are real results, showing that the version without sinkholes or wastelands then i'll believe you. My main point is don't mess with the deck if it isn't a definate improvement.
@Anti-american:
Its not about totally manascrewing them, I said that they CAN manascrew decks. In certain cases, you can steal games by manascrew. I don't advocate removing the 8 LD element of the deck because right now there isn't anything that is 100% better. As I said to Bane of the Living, the sinkholes and wastes are not in here for manascrew, but to protect your creatures and clear the path for them. And just like you said, LD slows down thresh so RD threats become more effective. If your so against me saying that the 8 LD pieces should be kept in the deck, what do you suggest? It seems if you are arguing with me just because you want to. You insinuated that I only use the LD as a way to manascrew people, which is not the case if you see what i said to BoTL. Right... and if you honestly don't know what your opponent is playing, I don't think you'll blindly name Wasteland with needle (vial, survival, salvergers...)unless you got 1 land in hand.
@ Breathweapon:
magus- Maybe
Simian- No
@ All:
Are there anycards that deal with topdeck tutors or library manipulation?
I lost both games to belcher because I kept a subpar hand game 2. It had something like a cabal therapy and an extirpate, and a nantuko shade as the threat. I thought I could hit the belcher with the therapy and extirpate it, and draw into e plague if he went for warrens (which he did and I didn't draw into an answer). Bad move on my part but I was tired and frustrated.
Land D is not going to be as effective with hulk flash running around. They need 2 mana only to go off and run artifact mana as well. I was very happy with 4 maindeck cabal therapies over the sinkholes, and 20 lands not including wasteland (which I didn't run). Extirpate still sucks, btw. Leyline is way better, especially in this deck when they have to answer it through disruption and a blazing fast clock (I also ran 2 flesh reavers which were amazing). It also would have been hilarious to go against one of those crappy fish decks that thinks they beat hulk flash.
they haunt minds...
In a metagame full of Hulk, I personally think something like MDed Leyline, Unmask, or even Therapy would do much better.
What I said basically.As I said to Bane of the Living, the sinkholes and wastes are not in here for manascrew, but to protect your creatures and clear the path for them.
Yup. I view this deck as the new Red Deck Wins. It's has better threats, and is much more aggressive than the generic RDW.And just like you said, LD slows down thresh so RD threats become more effective.
No, I just disagreed with your statement that playing against Threshold is all about land count. Personally, I believe the ideal way to beat Threshold is keep your Negators safe, while LD do their work by delaying them from their Enforcers.If your so against me saying that the 8 LD pieces should be kept in the deck, what do you suggest?
No, not really. I just post when I see something wrong with something. From your post, it seemed that you said LD was meant to mana screw players, not slow them down.It seems if you are arguing with me just because you want to.
I'm good with reads. If they wear nice cloths and seem like conservitive players and I see a Swamp, I know they're either playing Bw Confidant or Red Death.You insinuated that I only use the LD as a way to manascrew people, which is not the case if you see what i said to BoTL. Right... and if you honestly don't know what your opponent is playing, I don't think you'll blindly name Wasteland with needle (vial, survival, salvergers...)unless you got 1 land in hand.
Extirpate, Shimian Specter, etc, etc...@ All:
Are there anycards that deal with topdeck tutors or library manipulation?
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Good Ones ?! In Black or Red ?! Dunno...
Wand of Denial ?!?
Or mill effects. But they suxx.
On a side note, I'll only SB Leyline (and maybe Chalices @ 0 ) and MD/SB more discard against Hulk Smash for now (Unmask//Extirpate//???).
Post FS -if there's no Flash ban- and Hulk Flash getting 8 Pacts, I would play $t@x or switch Red for Blue and more countermeasures.
the blue pact is the real bitch (no effect to red death, but a pain in the ass for anyone packing force of wills, stifles etc), the green one just make them faster. Even if you play stax, post FS flash is going to have more turn 1 or turn 2 wins. So which deck have a better match-up, red death or stax? Then this question have to be considered: who gets to play first? For red death, we love god-hands involving dark-rit, duress, hymn. and for Stax, you love chalice etc. I don't think there are ANY deck in legacy that have a match-up better than 50/50 against flash hulk (this is for DEDICATED FLASH HATER DECKS).
Unmask is really meh.. you got 7 red cards, and every other black card is disruption or creature. You can throw away your only threat and hope they don;'t get anything in the next 3 turns or you throw away a hymn.
Is there any benefit to running 1 less Negator for 1 extra something else?
Maybe I'm a sissy, and I do realize he's a beast, but he scares me.
Negator is by far the best bang for your buck creature in the format... a 5/5 that can come online turn 1... that can be a third turn win... the only time that I would consider not running a full compliment is where I know there will be pleanty of red decks running around (negator hates goblins/burn/streisand beats).
I don't think it's the Negators that they side out. I think it's the Sinkholes. Negator is pretty much the only real clock you have against Goblins, even with the risk of Pyrokinesis shenanigans.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
Well... It's a combo metagame now. You stop them from winning, or you dont win at all. That's a good reason to run Extirpate. Besides, it cant be that bad against decks like Fish really, since you have better creatures than them anyway.
Shimian doesnt really matter. He's slow, but again, against Hulk Flash, he is much better than Hypnotic Specter. It's not like your going to play a first turn Specter against Hulk Flash, and if you do play it later, you'd much rather have Shimian over Hypnotic in the Hulk Flash match up.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
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