[Deck] Belcher

[Ewokslayer]

This thread is for the discussion of the following Belcher list.

This is the List that I top 8ed Kadilack's Dual Land Draft 3
My Tournament Report can be found here
CRET Belcher
4 Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rites of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
3 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor

SB
3 REB
2 Pyroblast
4 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
1 Simplify
1 Cave in
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens


This list originally did very well in Quebec GPT by ins0mniaque
The basic premise is simple. Open a hand with a win condition and mana and then kill your opponent before they can do anything about it.

Card Choices
Kill
Belcher, Burning Wish, and Empty the Warrens
These are the deck's kill conditions. They are efficient, difficult to deal with turn 1 and Burning Wish can fiind utility sorceries if needed.
Mana
Most of the mana cards is fairly straightforward.
The questionable cards seem to be Dark Ritual, # of Tinder Walls, and # of Wild Cantors.
Dark Ritual is one of only two cards that produce +2 mana all the time (Seething Song being the other)
With the inclusion of Dark Ritual 4 Wild Cantors are required inorder to more consistantly provide black mana to cast the Ritual.
The deck only runs 3 Tinder Walls for a number of reasons.
1) The deck has a problem producing more than one green mana turn 1 thus mulitple Tinder Walls are sometimes difficult to cast.
2) Dark Ritual is a better mana card and you need Wild Cantors to cast them.

Sideboard
One of the problems with a deck like this is sideboarding. There are very few truly dead cards as all the cards are either mana or kill. Thus you will usually not board many cards.
Protection
5 Blasts
These are your tools against Blue control. I usually board out some number of Land Grants, Tinder Walls, and Wild Cantors. If I board out 2 Wild Cantors I usually board out a Dark Ritual as Well
4 Shattering Spree
3 are for boarding leaving you one to wish for if necessary.
I usually board out 2 Cantors and a Dark Ritual for them.
Wish Board
The Wishboard is very flexible.
There is an Empty the Warrens for a tutorable kill.
Infernal can be used as both a means to find a belcher or up the storm count for Empty the Warrens.
The Rest
1 Duress
1 Simplify
1 Cave in
1 Pyroclasm
I am fairly disappointed with these slots as they don't do much. But, as a combo deck of this nature you won't be using most of your board anyway.
I would like to fit in a Tendrils of Agony inorder to finish the job of an early Warrens.

Matchups.
I think one of the strongest points of the deck is that it forces your opponent to play according to new rules. Players will have to pitch good hands or keep bad hands based solely on the presence of an answer to your deck. So even if they answer you the first time, they might not be able to answer you the second or third time.
All Agro.
You are favored. You kill before they get they get going and for the most part they can't do anything against you.

Other Combo
Solidarity should be slightly favorable as they need a FOW in order to stall the game long enough to combo off in response to you. But you have a much faster clock.
TES is unfairable assuming they get a turn. Their go off is stronger and can get a higher storm count fairly easily.

Control
Board Control
You can easily race most board sweepers so ETW can go all the way and belcher can usually kill them in one swoop.
Counter based Control
They have force which is bad but that is generally the only relevant counter that they can cast this early. The combination of them having to mulligan for a force and then pitching a card for it can often them with no threats and no answers to you in later turns.
Agro Control
Most agro Control have more answers to early threats that traditional control and as such provide a harder matchup for belcher.
Winning isn't out of the question but I don't feel confidant in that matchup.
Black Based Disruption.
A well timed duress can be very dangerous but you can usually recover of ignore it depending on your hand.
I have found that playing against Red Death is very favorable game one and only becomes an issue game 2 and 3.

[Happy Gilmore]

I can attest the consistency of this deck. I was watching Brian at times in his later rounds at Kadi's DLD and it makes me sick how many times the deck goes off turn 1.

[Shriekmaw]

The Rest
1 Duress
1 Simplify
1 Cave in
1 Pyroclasm

I would briefly like to go over the following slots in the wish board to see if there are some better choices out there. I do like pyroclasm as a wish target, but I'm not extremely happy with the other three. I can understand Cave-In as another way to kill a meddling mage, but usually if they have 2 mages, they will go for kill condition, then burning wish. The only time mage is a problem is game 1, b/c in the other games you will have pyroblast or REB to help kill it.

I'm not sure how good Overmaster would be in the board, I'm remember running it when Flame Vault was a very good deck back in GP: Philly. I almost never wish for Cave-In, Duress, or Simplify. Any thoughts about better wish targets?

[Ewokslayer]

I actually like Cave In more than Pyroclasm as wasting 4 mana to wish for and cast pyroclasm usually costs you more cards than pitching a red card to Cave in.
Simplify is the only answer the deck has to Confinement and can kill Plague if ETW is the only kill in your hand.
Duress was pretty awful I wished for it once and it was a mistake.
I don't think this deck can slow roll its win conditions by wishing for OVermaster first then trying to win.

[herbig]

The lack of permanent mana sources makes Burning Wish more or less just Warrens 5-7. The mana investment involved with wishing for a card leaves you completely spent, so if you're not wishing for Warrens, you've probably lost.

Cave-in's ability to also deal the last few points of damage you might need makes it worth it.

The problem is, what else can you really sideboard in this deck? On the play, you might be able to use Chalice, in order to lock opposing combo decks out after getting some Tokens.

[Shriekmaw]

I can see where Cave-In is just better since you can pitch a card to have it deal 2 damage to everything plus players. I guess the one card I'm not happy with is duress as a target, would tendils be better or is that too mana intensive for a target?

[Peter_Rotten]

I was curious as to why we should run Cave-In over Massacre? I think (maybe incorrectly) that most creatures that we would like to kill with Cave-In can be killed with Massacre for only the cost of the Burning Wish. Meddling Mage and True Believer are the creatures that pop into mind. Will we really need to control the board against Goblins?

[Finn]

Yep. I have this built right now almost card for card. I have also experienced very reliable combo on turn one or two. Of course, with ETW, it takes a couple of turns to win after that.

Just the same, I would definitely not play this deck at the GP. The environment will be toxic for it. ETW is completely useless against Flash and everyone will have anti-combo on the brain.

[Ewokslayer]

I was curious as to why we should run Cave-In over Massacre? I think (maybe incorrectly) that most creatures that we would like to kill with Cave-In can be killed with Massacre for only the cost of the Burning Wish. Meddling Mage and True Believer are the creatures that pop into mind. Will we really need to control the board against Goblins?

I don't think you can really rely on having a swamp in play.
Though there is no reason you can't run both as you can drop either Duress or Pyroclasm, or both and replace them with Massacre and Tendrils.

[freakish777]

Tendrils isn't really a good idea at all. Essentially you'd only ever get it with your opponent already at 8~14, as the deck has a hard time getting above 7 storm.


One of the problems I have with the deck is that when it does mulligan it seems to do so into oblivion. Additionally, with 22 0cc mana and 11 win conditions, I'm getting about a 75% chance of opening atleast one of each in your opening hand (someone show me the math if I'm wrong), which means you'll mulligan about 25% of the time, which seems a little high. Keeping the mana base constant (as I'm pretty sure its as good as it can get) here's the statistics on opening a 0cc mana and a win condition in your opening grip:

11: 75%
12: 78%
13: 81%
14: 83%
15: 85%
16: 87%

Now with more win conditions you also risk opening 2 in your hand and being stuck without enough mana, so here's the chance of opening 2 win conditions in your hand for various number of win conditions:

11: 39%
12: 43%
13: 48%
14: 52%
15: 57%
16: 61%

Burning Wish, EtW, and Belcher all being in the deck at the same time means that when you open 2 of them, you're guarenteed 1 dead card (barring Chrome Mox). If you go to more win conditions, I think it's probably correct to use a different tutor than BWish to ensure that you can grab a mana source if you've got another win in hand, I also think it's obviously correct to go to more win conditions if at all possible.

From Brian's report, he mulliganned 4 times over the day, playing 16 games (round 6 ID, not play out the finals, 2 matches had 3 games), which falls in line with the 25%. One thing I would like to ask is how often you kept hands that had a 0cc mana, a win, but not an immediate "combo" (ie, you have to topdeck some mana to make something work, be it put Belcher into play without activating it, or make a bunch of tokens, putting Belcher into play without activating it and relying on the top of your deck for mana #3 seems acceptable). I think you probably mulligan a little less aggressively than I do, and it seems like it pays off for you, essentially if you mulligan to 5 or less your odds of winning with this deck drop off drastically.

If someone brings this exact list to the GP and plays a full 16-20 games with it over 8 rounds and doesn't mulligan atleast 2 of those games, I'd highly suspect them of cheating.

[Ewokslayer]

I don't see mulliganing 4 times throughout a day being bad.
I would certainly keep a hand that could drop belcher and not activate. Especially if it could active next turn easily.

Most of the deck is mana so planing on drawing mana isn't too far fetched.

What other tutor can you use besides Burning Wish that doesn't
1) suck
2) only work under specific conditions.

[Jaynel]

I run a Regrowth in my sideboard. It's a pretty techy play especially when you pop LEDs in response to the Wish.

Edit: Would Goblin War Strike be tech or just terrible? I can think of occasions when I've had Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish in hand and went for a Duress of something. It acts as another combat phase for your tokens, kinda.

[freakish777]

I don't see mulliganing 4 times throughout a day being bad.
I would certainly keep a hand that could drop belcher and not activate. Especially if it could active next turn easily.

Hm, I didn't write that the best that I could have. My question was more along the lines:

Did you keep any hands that couldn't make the mana for ETW or Belcher (but had a 0cc mana) and simply relied and drawing a mana source in order to even cast Belcher?

Like I said, I'm pretty sure playing Belcher without activating is acceptable.

What other tutor can you use besides Burning Wish that doesn't
1) suck
2) only work under specific conditions.

Infernal Tutor as a 3 of might work? Also, IT for a Rite of Flame/Rit/LED/Seething Song in for a turn 2 Belch isn't bad when it comes up.

EDIT: IT does of course only grab a win condition when your hand is empty, however, with all the mana in the deck, I don't find emptying my hand difficult at all. As already mentioned, there's some cases where you grab Dark Rit/Rite of Flame #2 and combo next turn with Belcher.

Here's an example of a hand I recently fished:

Land Grant
Land Grant
Infernal Tutor
Infernal Tutor
Rite of Flame
Simean Spirit Guide
Tinder Wall

Plays as:

LG for Bayou, RFG SSG, play IT for Rite of Flame, pass the turn. Topdeck mana, play mana out, IT for Belcher, play Belcher, go for turn 3. I think in this scenario, I drew Ritual or LED and won on the same turn, however a hand with double IT's is definitely sketchy, and topdecking an EtW in that scenario is essentially catastrophic. In comparison though to a deck with out IT, it's a definite mulligan, and possibly a game loss (if you mull again).

A quick last note, each game you mulligan, you're going to have an even higher percentage of mulliganning afterwards, so over the course of 8 rounds, you're somewhat likely to mulligan to 5 or 4 once* (again, drastically increasing your chances of losing with this deck, mull to 6 isn't bad though just undesirable).

* Which happens to be about the same percentage of the time you'll actually Spoils yourself out of a game (including games you don't play it), so that may be another Tutor to consider.

[Henk]

Are the Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast better than Xantid Swarm?

Is black really needed? Couldn't it go with just red/green. I sometimes have problems getting the black mana for the dark ritual...

[Zilla]

The lack of permanent mana sources makes Burning Wish more or less just Warrens 5-7. The mana investment involved with wishing for a card leaves you completely spent, so if you're not wishing for Warrens, you've probably lost.

Working under this premise, Infernal Tutor is simply better than Burning Wish. It gives you another black card to pitch to Chrome Mox, which improves overall consistency. It can fetch either EtW or Belcher. It can get you another mana producer when you need it, which Burning Wish cannot.

People who have played with this deck some know that emptying your hand is essentially a guarantee; you drop permanent mana sources, play all your sorcery and instant speed accelleration, and if there's no win condition in your hand, it's empty aside from Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish.

The only time Infernal Tutor is bad is when there are two of them in your hand and you don't have Chrome Mox to pitch one of them to or an LED to crack in response.

So it begs the question: if you've essentially already lost the game if you're not Wishing for Warrens, what reason is there not to run Infernal Tutor in its stead? Is the utility of Wish really better than the consistency and versatility of Infernal Tutor? This isn't a rhetorical question. Does the deck become unviable if it can't Wish for answers to certain problems?

For reference, the Wishless list I've been testing is identical to Ewok's list except for the following changes: -4 Burning Wish, -1 Belcher, +4 Infernal Tutor, +1 Tinder Wall. Most of my testing has just been goldfishing though, so I can't say with any certainty that it's the correct way to go.


EDIT: I didn't see freakish's post before I posted about Infernal Tutor. It's been really good for me. I tested Spoils as well, but it's less consistent and far riskier than Infernal.

[CalebD]

You run into more problems than just double infernal/no mox-LED. You also run into Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage on Belcher, and if Infernal and Belch are in your hand you're probably going to lose if you don't draw a LED quick, since belcher can't even pitch to mox.

Also, the more black you add to the deck, the worse Wild Cantor becomes. I ran into this problem with my build (which admittedly runs a LOT of black.) I'm going to do my best to explain why now, but don't be surprised if it doesn't make much sense, I'll edit it later for clarity.

The more black you add to the deck, the less likely it will be that you need Cantor. Situations start occuring when you have a black imprint, and thus have no need of Cantor, yet you're still drawing them. The more black cards you add, the more likely it will be that you're hurting for red mana, and Cantor is completely useless.

The Color requirements in this deck are very subtle, and any shift (say, switching tutors) should lead to some necessary re-structurings of the deck to maintain consistency.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're running Infernal Tutor instead of Burning Wish then cantor probably shouldn't be in the deck, you should probably be running Cabal rituals, and I'd reccomend seriously considering tendrils and iggy as well.

[freakish777]

Double IT hands are pretty bad, but sometimes managable. If you've got a Rite of Flame or Dark Ritual in your hand, you can usually go "IT for Rite/Rit" next turn IT for Belcher and play it, win turn 3/4. The question is whether or not a turn 3/4 kill is better than a mulligan. Since I'm playing some IT's on top of BWishes at the moment, a double IT hand would have been an auto-mulligan since the ITs would have mana sources instead. Instead I end up with a choice of turn 3/4 or mull and try for better.

[ReAnimated]

Quick question, what does this deck do vs. Hulk im asumming u just race em to the combo

[herbig]

The added black cards along with the situations where Infernal is bad make IT bad in this version of Belcher, in my opinion.

You go from 11 to 12 win conditions but will mulligan more times from Infernal Tutor than from not having a win in your opening hand. Also, Infernal for Belcher doesn't come up often enough to be relevant to the discussion.

@reAnimated: this deck came out before Flash was realized. You can't do a whole lot against them, aside from try to race with Belcher, Warrens if they have a bad hand, and side in Blasts. Its a bad match-up for sure. Sideboard Leylines might not be a bad idea.

[Kilz88]

The added black cards along with the situations where Infernal is bad make IT bad in this version of Belcher, in my opinion.

You go from 11 to 12 win conditions but will mulligan more times from Infernal Tutor than from not having a win in your opening hand. Also, Infernal for Belcher doesn't come up often enough to be relevant to the discussion.

@reAnimated: this deck came out before Flash was realized. You can't do a whole lot against them, aside from try to race with Belcher, Warrens if they have a bad hand, and side in Blasts. Its a bad match-up for sure. Sideboard Leylines might not be a bad idea.

Adding leylines is about the only idea. I would definitly board them seeing how red and green do not have answers to the Cap'n (thats what I am calling HulkFlash..."Cap'n Crunch"). The best answers include leyline, swords, stifle, and spell snare. The only one we have access to with this deck is leyline. You side out the 3 ETWs in your deck and 1 burning wish for 4 leylines. The End.