If you need/want another kill condition, Hunting Pack and Manamorphose were alright, I ran that config. vs Duress for awhile. You can even fit Natural Order in the deck, either by adding a Dryad Arbor or like 4 of the r/g mana filter guy.
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Still no love for Recross the Paths people? With 3 Mana available and Taiga on the table it's a strictly better Doomsday. Without the Taiga it's effectively a 3cc sorcery that finds that Taiga and then has an above-average chance of clashing itself right back into your hand, and with an extra 2 mana investment you get to tap that Taiga and replay it on the spot.
Anyway since my last input didn't really spark any discussion I'm going to go ahead and post a mini-primer instead. It's at least worth the consideration Imo.
// Lands
1 [B] Taiga
// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [MOR] Recross the Paths
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
3 [9E] Seething Song
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Recross the Paths
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning
SB: 1 [6E] Infernal Contract
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [MM] Crash
SB: 1 [MM] Thunderclap
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
Mini-Q&A
Q: What does Recross the Paths do?
A: It reveals cards off the top of your library until it hits a land card and then puts the revealed cards back in any order at the bottom of it, meaning that if you don't have any lands left in it you get to stack it from the bottom up.
Q: Doesn't that make it useless unless you also draw the Taiga/Land Grant?
A: It makes it worse, but not entirely useless. You can still play it to find the aforementioned Taiga, and with any luck you'll also win the clash meaning that you get your investment back. Remember that with the Taiga you only need another 2 mana to replay it the same turn..
Q: How fast do you win after stacking your deck?
A: Depends on how many cantrips and/or Mana floating you've got left after Recrossing. With 3 mana and a cantrip OR 2 cantrips (and 2 mana for Manamorphose should you not have 2 Wraiths) on hand you can win the same turn you Recross. With one Cantrip OR the means of producing 3 mana you'll win the next turn. If you have an empty hand you'll need to spend 2 turns drawing into Mana as well as the Meditate to initiate the piles; preferrably by topdecking a LED and a Street Wraith - which is still as fast as EtW in the vast majority of all situations.
Q: Isn't EtW better versus blue-based decks?
A: Nah. They can still counter your mana sources to prevent you from reaching 4 Mana (especially if you had to use Land Grant and they see it coming), and 12+ Goblins isn't a guaranteed win by a long shot since there isn't a deck out there that won't be able to deal with them at least postside.
Generic Piles:
Kill Pile (as ordered from top through bottom):
*Street Wraith (for Clashing if you wanna get the Recross back for Imprinting Chrome Mox)
*Setup (Whatever is still needed to cast Meditate ASAP - see the Mini-FAQ)
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal (If you have a surplus mana you can substitute this for Thunderclap/Crash/Reverent Silence to remove inconvenient permanents game 2)
Street Wraith
Goblin Charbelcher
Do your preparations. Cast Meditate to draw into the LED's and Wraith. Cycle the Wraith whilst cracking the LED's in response and end up with Charbelcher in hand and 7-9 mana in pool. Win.
Slightly more convoluted kill that can also deal with whatever hate they managed Pile:
*Street Wraith
*Setup
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Street Wraith
Burning Wish
LED
Seething Song
Burning Wish
Street Wraith
Charbelcher
Cast Meditate. Draw cards, cycle wraith whilst cracking the LEDs' for RRRRRRBBB, draw Wish and cast it for Infernal Contract. Cast infernal Contract with RRRR in pool for the next set of cards. Cast Seething Song and Burning Wish for your hatecard of choice. Remove what keeps you from winning, then cycle Street Wraith whilst cracking LED for Charbelcher. This one might take a lot of tweaking in order to fit the gamestate and is more of a general guideline than a step-for-step walkthrough (it assumes you still have all 4 LEDs remaining, for an instance).
Preside removing artifacts or creatures requires you to either have an extra mana in the pool whilst casting Meditate in order to compensate for the mana used by Spree/Lightning - this is why Thunder Clap/Crash is in the sideboard. If you don't have the extra mana don't forget that you can also substitute the last LED for a Lotus Petal and instead draw into it the next turn to fire off the Charbelcher.
I like it a lot, it's a cool effect
The question that every Belcher player are thinking: Are this list better vs Blue decks that standard Belcher?
I went 3-1 splitting the top 4 at my local tournament here in Rochester. This was my list
4 Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rites of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
3 Manamorphose
SB
1 REB
1 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
1 Cave-in
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reverent Silence
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Deathmark
Something else i don't remember
My matchups were:
Match 1 - Patrick Playing Sneak Attack
He won the die roll. Huge disadvantage for me. He goes first and drops a 20/20 serra avatar with haste.
Game two I go first. I start things off with 12 goblins. He can't beat the two turn clock and we go to game three.
He goes first and luckily doesn't kill me. Me with a smile on my face drop belcher and activate it. And OF COURSE I hit a Taiga at card number 9. Next turn he sneak attacks protean hulk into play. Loss
0-1
Match 2 - Suicide Black
I open a hand with belcher but one mana short of going off. He thoughtseize's me stealing away belcher. I draw my mana outlet. He goes and plays dark rit phyrexian negator. I draw empty the warrens and lay down 12 happy goblins. He can't handle it and loses.
Game two I open a hand of belcher, empty the warrens, land grant, lotus petal, rit of flame, seething song, seething song. He first turn thought seizes me, and takes away empty the warrens. I go, dropping belcher and activating it, and of course hitting taiga on the third card. I eventually activate belcher again and killing him.
1-1
Match 3 - Painter's Stone (Running FOW)
I knew I'd have to face blue at some point.. Game one I burning wish blowing up 3 LED's in the process. He doesn't FOW so I think I'm safe. I grab infernal tutor, he still doesn't FOW, so I grab belcher, and he forces it... And then grindstones in my face.
Game two I empty the warrens all over his FOW. I win.
Game three I get turn one Xantid swarm. 2 turn I belch on him.
2-1
Match 4 - Josh playing ANT (Pimped out completely)
Game one I lose the die roll and I try and drop Belch for the win but he chants me. He then procedes to double dark rit and ad nauseum me.
Game two I drop belcher and activate, but in response he drops angels grace. Sitting at one life, he has almost nothing he can do, so I'm able to build up enough to rebelch him for the win.
Game three he mulls to 5 (I figure hes looking for a chant) and he drops land and passes. I go, play lotus petal, no response from him, rite of flame, no response from him, desperate ritual, no response from him, LED, no response from him, and then exile simian spirit guide to drop belcher. He curses as he forgets that he can't respond to simian spirit guide. I belch for the win.
3-1
Top four split. Overall, I was pretty happy with how the deck ran. I did not like the fact that I fizzled twice, and because of that I'm thinking about removing the Bayou and dark rits for Street Wraiths.
Since this deck is bad against blue, and good against everything else-ish have people considered supplementing or replacing xantid swarm with goblin welder. Both are good against blue with welder having the bonus ability to more easily allow for multiple belches in the event of fizzling.
Usually, the Blue strategy vs Belcher is to play counterspells targeting Big Ritual spells.
If I resolve Seething Song vs Blue, I'm going to play Empty the Warrens, not Belcher, so Welder can't recover it.
I went 3-1 (7-2) with Belcher yesterday at my local tournament. I moved down to one land belcher, removing the dark rits for street wraiths and the bayou for the 4th manamorphose. The deck performed excellently, never fizzling even once. I lost to Survival which sided in 10 hate cards against me. I actually made a play mistake game two where I should have won, but it happens to the best of us.
Hey Everybody,
Long time lurker, I think first time poster... Been watching the thread and reading everyone's ideas. Very cool stuff!
I picked up the deck recently after playing pox and fish, because I think the deck concept is awesome.
Currently I am playing the RG version after hitting bayou too many times on belcher activations. I used Wild Cantor instead of dark rit for a while, but honestly she sucks pretty bad in the RG version. You don't almost ever need the mana fixing in RG, and she then basically only adds to storm count. So I know it seems the consensus on Street Wraith is that he sucks, but I would rather have a chance at mana than no mana at all. He does make mulligan decisions harder, especially with 8 total draw effects (including manamorphose), but overall I think he is still a better choice than cantor.
Anyways, now that you know what version I am playing, here is my question:
How do I play against dredge -_- ?
I lost to dredge both games in a tournament over this weekend. First game I made 16 goblins turn 1. She made 9 zombies and an Iona naming red. Next game I made 10 goblins... same deal I got rocked early.
I have thought about trying to mulligan for belcher kills, but that seems dangerous because by the time I hit a hand with belcher it will be too slow to drop the belcher on the first turn, leaving me in a scary place to get cabal therapied to death.
Any thoughts?
In my experience the match up vs Ichorid is generally 50/50. You'll win the games where you go the belcher route and lose the games you go the ETW route.
Also, if you're going to test Wild Cantor in any spot it's going to be in the Timber Wall slot, but you're correct you don't need mana fixing until you run a list with spoils and even then the difference between Cantor and Timber are pretty negligable.
I have picked this deck up again recently, and have an idea for a sideboard - as we have to pack GY hate, what do you guys think of putting 4 Leyline of the Void and 3 Helm of Obedience in as an alternate win against GY based decks, as well as against decks that bring in Pithing Needle on Belcher?
"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
Seems bad. Your devoting half the sb to one matchup that isn't even that bad for you. After Xantid Swarm you have 4 tool box cards left. I don't see how Helm of Obedience is even a win condition.. Explain it to me if I'm wrong. And pithing needle isn't THAT bad. Empty the warrens or burning wish for shattering spree.
In short, if you have Leyline of the Void in play and activate Helm of Obedience (X>0) the opponent's whole library is removed from the game.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Interesting... I still don't really know if its worth it.
I'd say that the Helmline combo would be a nice alternative to Belcher. bThery Needle Belch, you go, 'ok, HElm x=1, gg?'
X can't be zero on helm. Read the rules text. I don't see it helping at all; belcher is a one card combo, whereas leyline + helm is 2 cards that you need in hand. Seems a lot harder to set up unless you go the spoils route which is terribly weak against ichorid if you lose half your life using spoils.
Nice tournament report. Stupid sneak attack.
Bread Connoisseur on MTGSalvation Forums
Currently Playing:
All flavors of storm combo
Ok guys, I have played this deck in the past and had a bit of success but I was thinking about it for the upcoming big events in legacy's future. For me mainly:
SCG Open: Indy
GP: Columbus
Legacy Champs
Here is my list and I need some help with the board. Plus what is everyones play/draw stratagy? I always thought you opt to draw but I am not sure if that is right against all decks due to daze. Also against what decks do you go off ASAP and what decks do you wait until they have lethal on board? Lastly what is your default plan if they are on the play and you see a blue dual land?
// Lands
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
// Creatures
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
Oh, and what the hell do I take out? I have been leaning towards manamorphose but...I honestly have no clue.
KC Keel - 20
TCG Player - Magic: The Gathering
Preferred Format: Legacy or Limited
Team Melee
drummerkilz06@yahoo.com
Why do you want to take anything out? Its a pretty canned list that doesn't need anything else.
Honestly, I don't think this is the right deck for the meta you'll find at a "big" legacy event. Because big legacy events will be heavy in blue, and with the printing of mindbreak trap you really wont stand much of a chance. Look at tournament results, theres a reason this deck rarely top 8's with anything above 40 people.
Your sure?
SCG: Philly 6th
SCG: LA 8th & T16
Side Event @ PT: SD: 6th
Side Event @ GP: Minneapolis: Top 2 Split between 2 belcher decks
GPT Madrid: 3rd
SCG: Richmond 9th
http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...acy&sort=edate
Counting side events is iffy. And most of those events on deckcheck are under 40 people, so my words hold true. Sure it pops up in the 4-8 occasionally, but its significantly better in meta's with lower numbers of people. Compare it to the number of top 8's by ANT, and its clear to see it doesn't put up the same results. It has 4 sb protection spells (5 if you count the duress), which really isn't enough in most developed metas. Your welcome to compete with it, but belcher decks are rarely seen as a serious threat. I play the deck and I love it, but I don't think I'd play it at any major events.
You miss, GP Madrid, 18th
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